The New Mario Match-Up Index

[MP8]

I see. I will utilize this information to the best of my abilities. Thanks. And also, is it possible to SDI out of TL's up-b? It seems to act as some kind of a vortex that pulls me in when I'm relatively close.

 

[Coolwhip]

@MP8: Yea, you can sdi out of Tlink's up-b. (When TLink is on the ground) :star:
Edit: SDI up on the joy stick.

 

[MP8]

I'll keep that in mind Coolwhip. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Eleghor]

Up-B out of shield is the best option to Mk's tornado.

I think.

 

[Inferno3044]

Up-B out of shield is the best option to Mk's tornado.

I think.

I agree, but depending on where he is when he uses nado, you can use other options such as FLUDD and cape.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Except it doesn't work when the tornado is hitting your shield, so it's still not too good of an option when you're likely to have more chance of a punish just by shielding it.

 

[Inferno3044]

Except it doesn't work when the tornado is hitting your shield, so it's still not too good of an option when you're likely to have more chance of a punish just by shielding it.

I have punished nado with UpB OOS against people fairly consistently, but there are times that I try to UpB them and I get hit. Not 100% sure why.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

BECAUSE UP-B DOES NOT HAVE INVINCIBILITY FRAMES ON STARTUP RAH RAH RAH RAH RAH RAH RAH.

I used to think it worked and then I tested it and it doesn't work. Also, don't mind the caps I'm just too lazy to delete them.

 

[Omari]

What can we do when tornado's pressuring our shield?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Up-B OOS can work, just the timing can be weird. There is a video where they run through options after powershielding the first hit of the Tornado, and you could theoretically just Jab in that situation as well.

 

[-DR3W-]

Hey dudes.

Falcos are discussing the Mario matchup here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304145

Any and all input from you guys would be appreciated.

 

[Payne]

Ugh i really need the info on ness.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Ness is about even. You need to be extremely good at spacing to get the most out of this matchup. You have the mobility to outspace him, but you can't ever be lazy about spacing any of your aerials since he does have a counter for each of them. That's honestly the jist of the matchup. Spacing perfectly. Getting him offstage and FLUDDing or Caping him can gimp him. Fireballs aren't too hard to aim on his recovery. If he's good at aiming his recovery though he can be really tricky to gimp, so sometimes it will be important to know how to kill him the old fashioned way with Smashes.

 

[Payne]

It takes really precise timing to cape him when he uses his Pk thunder recovery and i am not good at timing,Thanks for the info!

 

[Coolwhip]

Can anyone chat about the marth match-up?
I wanna know how to play/win well against him. Like approaching, spacing, baiting, etc....

 

[A2ZOMG]

You will lose against Marth if you cannot angle shield correctly. The first thing you need to learn in this matchup above anything else is angling shield correctly. Also get rid of any spotdodge habits you have. They most likely will get you killed in this matchup if you commit to them.

You don't really need to do anything special against Marth. You want to zone him with fireballs and see how he reacts. Be ready to B-air or U-air oos against his approaches, and fireball oos here and there when Marth isn't in range to be punished by those moves. When you get close, hit confirming a Jab cancel combo on Marth is incredibly easy and should be done whenever possible (be aware of his Up-B though. You can opt to Jab cancel into Up-B on Marth and I'm pretty sure this will beat his Up-B if you both buffer). Whenever Marth does something that looks punishable, you also have to make a judgement call as to whether or not your execution will actually let you punish him before he Up-Bs, and if you have any doubt in your execution, you should play it safe with fireballs.

If you grab him at 0, U-throw instead of D-throw. This is much better against him if he is accustomed to DIing away. If he doesn't DI at all though, you can D-throw -> U-smash him at 0 (he can airdodge it, but this will cover his other options).

When you get Marth offstage, this is where you have the most options to really screw him over. Harass his recovery with fireballs, FLUDD, aerials, and most importantly if he has to recover low, GRAB THE EDGE. Your goal is to either edgehog him (and potentially punish him for landing on stage) or to invincible edgedrop N-air/U-air him out of his Up-B for a gimp.

 

[Inferno3044]

Can anyone chat about the marth match-up?
I wanna know how to play/win well against him. Like approaching, spacing, baiting, etc....

On a scale of 1 to 10, it's a$$.

You will lose against Marth if you cannot angle shield correctly. The first thing you need to learn in this matchup above anything else is angling shield correctly. Also get rid of any spotdodge habits you have. They most likely will get you killed in this matchup if you commit to them.

I guess angling your shield helps but you make it much more crucial than it really is. It's really not going to be the reason you win.

You don't really need to do anything special against Marth. You want to zone him with fireballs and see how he reacts. Be ready to B-air or U-air oos against his approaches, and fireball oos here and there when Marth isn't in range to be punished by those moves. When you get close, hit confirming a Jab cancel combo on Marth is incredibly easy and should be done whenever possible (be aware of his Up-B though. You can opt to Jab cancel into Up-B on Marth and I'm pretty sure this will beat his Up-B if you both buffer). Whenever Marth does something that looks punishable, you also have to make a judgement call as to whether or not your execution will actually let you punish him before he Up-Bs, and if you have any doubt in your execution, you should play it safe with fireballs.

You're gonna zone and play defensive against Marth? Have fun with that. I know this sounds dumb and you will call me an idiot, but you have to approach him. To beat Marth, you need to make reads, punish with both UpB and Fsmash well, and have him make mistakes. If you camp, zone, and play defensively Marth has a much less chance of making a mistake. Marth spaces much better than Mario and outranges him significantly. Those OOS options will whiff Marth's well spaced fair.

If you grab him at 0, U-throw instead of D-throw. This is much better against him if he is accustomed to DIing away. If he doesn't DI at all though, you can D-throw -> U-smash him at 0 (he can airdodge it, but this will cover his other options).

Once again, insignificant.

When you get Marth offstage, this is where you have the most options to really screw him over. Harass his recovery with fireballs, FLUDD, aerials, and most importantly if he has to recover low, GRAB THE EDGE. Your goal is to either edgehog him (and potentially punish him for landing on stage) or to invincible edgedrop N-air/U-air him out of his Up-B for a gimp.

Don't take edgeguarding Marth for granted. Especially with Mario. He doesn't have the options to put Marth at bay.

tl:dr - Any Marth that loses to a Mario is a$$

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Pierce is way better at outplaying you since he knows Mario better than you do. Mario can capitalize on Marth's openings quite well, just you have to be proactive in recognizing those openings and just play safe as usual.

And uh, I'm not sure why you would understate the importance of angling shield against Marth. By far the most likely way he will mess you up in this matchup is when he shield pokes you. In the neutral stance though he's not that worrisome as long as you're not getting tipper F-smash killed (which is mostly a gimmick).

The difference between U-throw and D-throw is VERY significant in this matchup. When you U-throw Marth at low percents, he pretty much HAS to airdodge to properly avoid your juggles because the positioning is awful for him. If you D-throw, he can DI away and F-air to mess you up most of the time. The difference between getting a 20% juggle on him and not getting it is definitely important in this matchup. You want him to have enough damage so that you can get him offstage for edgeguards at minimum. This lets you actually get in control of the match.

And yes you want to zone against Marth. You have to to actually get in. It's about drawing out his commitment and punishing. You're not actually camping him, but you're using fireballs to see what he's going to do, and blocking really really well when he comes in to attack and seeing what your options are to counter. Running in directly is unwise against Marth because his bait game is very strong, minus the random possibility of powershielding. I personally think it's something you wouldn't understand since you don't demonstrate a strong understanding of how spacing works. If Marth is spacing F-airs as well as you think is unpunishable, just zone more. He has to actually move out of his range to consistently be safe believe it or not. His pressure game is not infinite nor perfect.

Trading hits with Marth isn't as hard as it looks either, since his hitboxes don't last long. Just you have to be really strong in edgeguarding to make it count.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Here we go again....

 

[HeroMystic]

So the boards are so dead even the arguments take days to finish?

 

[Coolwhip]

Mario

Vs Marth (4:6) (in the bible of hippy, it's 6/4 Mario if ur god.)

Marth's metagame

Marth's an amazing character with disjointed hitboxes thanks to his sword,good spacing, long range, fast moves, and a very good pressure game. He's the type to use zoning to reduce your options and capitalize by reaction and mistakes. He does his best when your at the ledge, when ur in the air, or on the platforms.

Primary style l should go: Aggro camping (camp until you find a opening to get inside and stay inside) Camping (just keep running away with fireballs, play a safe game, cape/fludd) Aggro (only if he sucks massive ayuss)

Strategy into winning: Primary objective is to get inside his range and get into close range where he lacks and stay inside as long as possible. What l need to do is usually just fireball and keep baiting him and punishing whatever opening i can get. Get him offstage and control the stage with fireballs and my movement. Playing safe is also good too.

Weaknesses to capitalize: -In the air below him (his weakest zone and just bait)
-Ledge trapping him. (no real options and his greatest weakness on the ledge)
-Gimping him (use all of your options and dont be afraid to have fun offstage)
- Constantly bait him. (if he isnt patient and constantly moves, just punish)
- Less stage control = he can't space as well and not enough area to move.
- Punish landing points = no real landing options, mostly fair and airdodge, so punishing with grab is safe.

Counterpicks: Varies on the type of opponent, but BF for comboing and aggro, FD for massive camping and baiting OOS UPb. Halberd to kill early with upsmash.
Bans: deflino, ps1

Main way to score kos: Fsmash, upsmash, gimping him off stage, captalize on his ledge options, when he's in the air.

kill %s

~How to get around options list~
Fair: - Powershield it and punish right away if not correctly spaced.
-walk away bait and run in with shield or nair or fireball or don't do anything.
- cape him to mess up his momentum
- fludd to make hitlag and punish him after
- fireballs from a angle.
- backflip airdodge
-oos upb if it's not spaced
- shield it and cross over with bair or anything else, getting behind him.
- Rolling behind him, but not excessively.

Dtilt:
- rolling behind him
- bait it with zoning tools (if he's crouching down, just Bair outside his range and fsmash him)
- Walk and power shield it and OOS jab
- if he's near the edge, fludd him.
- SH Cape, Dtilt beats fireballs
- if above him, just Nair.
- Cross over with full hop (land behind him)

Dancing blade:
- OOS upb, OOS spotdodge the last hit and punish after.
- Fludd him if he's far away
- OOS roll while he's DBing you.


If I'm cornered to the edge and he control middle of stage:
- Jump back and breversal fireballs
- Shield oos upb and/or roll behind him.
- Full hop cape stall/get behind him
- Keep fireballing for a opening
-Fludd him to push him back if hes zoning around outside my range.

If Marth is looking for a Kill:
-play completely safe, use Mario's speed to his advantage.
- Use bairs, fireballs, cape to mess up momentum, and alot of cross-overs.
- if hes using fsmash, just shield alot and roll alot.
- OOS upb OOS roll OOS fullhop nair
-

~etc more to add~

Frame data.
Jab
Hit: 4
End: 35
Forward Tilt
Hit: 7-11
End: 39
IASA: 35
Up Tilt
Hit: 6-13
End: 39
Down Tilt
Hit: 7-13
End: 47
IASA: 21
Forward Smash
Hit: 10
End: 49
Up Smash
Hit: 12
End: 54
IASA: 49
Down Smash
Hit: 6, 21
End: 64
Nair
Hit: 6, 15, 17 (behind), 19 End: 48
Fair
Hit: 4-8
End: 34
Bair
Hit: 7-11
End: 40
Up Air
Hit: 6-9
End: 45
Dolphin Slash
Invincible frames: 1-5
Hit: 5-11
Landing Lag: 34
Forward b 1 dancing blade
Hit: 4-7
End: 30

*Copy & paste from hippy*

He seems to do well against marth.

EDIT: Do anyone got any good videos of an mario vs marth?

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Someone tell me how Mario vs Luigi is considered an even match... N-air ***** us in the air, Jab ***** us on the ground. Our range is as crappy as his, so when we can finally get in to deal some sweet damage, so can he. And he does it better than us, and benefits WAY more from trades than we do

 

[A2ZOMG]

You camp better. That's why.

You get more from spamming fireballs. Spacing F-smash (actually spacing well with ANYTHING in general) ***** him since it's hard for him to punish. His N-air is easy to deal with, just stop trying to challenge it poorly and learn to U-tilt it. Your spacing in general is safer. You just want to keep him out and never let him get close.

Also he's not hard for Mario to edgeguard for high reward.

This matchup however is 70/30 Luigi on wifi. If you're getting ***** by Luigi on wifi, that's the problem. Outside of that it's definitely a close matchup. You just have to know wtf you're doing and stop picking options that don't work.

 

[mars16]

Yes Luigi has more close up advantege and stuff, trades hits harder and stuff but Mario does not have to trade hits when we can camp weegee.

 

[Coolwhip]

Luigi can be so >_> to play against sometimes until i learn how to finally deal against him.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

I know this match up well because of my old clan leader axel, we played almost everyday and his luigi was so good
that I was wondering how do I even play this MU properly. But pretty much you know the deal when he gets close I
find it A LOT easier to uptilt to combo him to Dair to combo but only problem is if you just start a match he has 0%
and you up tilt twice, he can Nair you out of it and combo you, so obviously shield grab solves that problem. Best grab
IMO against luigi is dair unless you want to keep him away back throw would be your best bet. And as you know his recovery
is just amazing so your best bet is to get him far away from the stage without anymore jumps (If you can, although I found it very easy
to do this because he is Down B to recover happy so I just Bair him) Most likely he is looking for a Side B to recover
from a far distance and Fludd him out pretty much but he still has his up B option and edgegrabing and Bair
stage spike are your answers. Pretty much just keep as far away as possible from the stage and edge.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

his recovery is pretty horrible against cape and fludd

 

[Sleek Media]

I still have no idea how to deal with a campy Falco.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Campy Falco, you just wait. You crouch and cape lasers. Powershield his SideB. And you try your best to outspace him. Very boring and lame matchup. One of my least favorite matchups.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Or just go Pikachu and down throw.

 

[steep]

I hate the Falco MU too.... I always get ***** by him but I didn't realize I should be camping him. Lol

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

I hate the Falco MU too.... I always get ***** by him but I didn't realize I should be camping him. Lol

Idk if you wanted someone else to help you so sorry but
It can be fairly easy if you avoid chaingrabs but if you do get caught in one
try to not double jump because if the falco
realizes this he will dair you off the edge and puts you at risk of not
being able to recover (Most likely at around 30-39%) but really if he is grab happy
just stay in the air and throw fireballs once in a while to mix it up. And if you are having troubles with campy falco Cape and crouching is the way to go

.

 

[steep]

Idk if you wanted someone else to help you so sorry but
It can be fairly easy if you avoid chaingrabs but if you do get caught in one
try to not double jump because if the falco
realizes this he will dair you off the edge and puts you at risk of not
being able to recover (Most likely at around 30-39%) but really if he is grab happy
just stay in the air and throw fireballs once in a while to mix it up. And if you are having troubles with campy falco Cape and crouching is the way to go

.

Thanks for the advice!! I will keep those tips in mind man!

 

[Omari]

Steep, what exactly are you struggling with in the Falco v Mario MU? Fire ball, preventing chain grabs, gimping, guaranteed throw combos (true), etc?

 

[Sleek Media]

How exactly do you gimp Falco? Cape works like crap on the illusion. Also, if you do get in there, what beats his insane spot dodge? How can you beat a Falco that just does double lasers->illusion constantly?

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

How exactly do you gimp Falco? Cape works like crap on the illusion. Also, if you do get in there, what beats his insane spot dodge? How can you beat a Falco that just does double lasers->illusion constantly?

Like I said cape his lasers, Crouch and shield, predict his spotdoges and gimp his up b with cape and Back air. Edgegrab if needed Oh and if he likes to illusion, Fireballz. Hope this helped

 

[Omari]

How exactly do you gimp Falco? Cape works like crap on the illusion. Also, if you do get in there, what beats his insane spot dodge? How can you beat a Falco that just does double lasers->illusion constantly?

Gimping: Generally, forcing your opponent into a corner (ledge) is the primary goal. Reason: Less amount of space to maneuver around (less options to choose from). Falco is one of the few characters in the game that is forced to recover with his up special (vertical/or slightly horizontal) when pressured offstage. N-air (until proven otherwise) works more when covering his phantasm (& maintaining pressure). Fire ball Falco when it's offstage because you're forcing it to either reflector, air dodge or position itself to your advantage. You can't react to phantasm by cape, you have to read (or force-if you're going to force a high phantasm, fludd Falco instead so you have ample enough time to punish) it out.

*Instant Pressure: Mario has a throw advantage similar to Falco. @0-1%, f-throw>SSFS (stands for shutter stepped front smash, angled up in order to hit Falco's foot for 27% damage) (>anything (I'd recommend either a full hop rising b-air or a high angle fire ball>jab)

Dodging: Auto jab (A2ZOMG, may you explain frame data wise why this works? Thanks.), n-air (active 25 frames, near ledges in order not to commit to landing onstage), d-air (active 20 frames, onstage before apex of jump in order to auto cancel, usually safer due to rapid attacking), high angle (shot from at apex of jump) fire ball>(jab (most beneficial), f-tilt, u-smash, d-air, b-air, grab (any except dash grab) mix-ups), etc.

Baiting: Perform an action in order to manipulate your opponent to react the way you want them to. Generally, the opposing player should walk under the first laser (being that Falco is covering your jumping options, in other words...he's forcing you to walk or air dodge through since you can't block when airborne) then power shield (if possible) the "most likely" to be silent laser (punish if possible) when Falco SHDL to insure safety. If you discover a pattern, quickly adapt & bait the phantasm. How? Pretend you're walking towards Falco, then jump (most likely full hop) back (since Falco has] to land) or dash>shield back towards Falco. Think of the high laser as a cover towards your air options & the low laser as a cover towards your ground options.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

Thanks Omari for giving a better explanation,

 

[Coolwhip]

Cape doesn't really work on falco's illusion. You have on be ON POINT with it to work perfectly,
like for starters. Marth's f-smash, best damage from the TIP of his sword.
The tip of mario's cape is broken against falco/fox's illusion & metaknight's drill rush (Side-b)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W58fjvh5Xr4

Watch how flameleon does it against this mk on 2nd stock. Nice setup with the fireball though. xD

Edit: Nair can break falco's side-b as well. DON'T f-air it off stage. You'll fall to your doom.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

wow that mk sucked.