Legend of Zelda The Milk Bar [Archived]

[Spire]

According to Zelda (again, according to Zelda wiki), Twinrova tried to use Zelda as a perfect sacrifice to free ganon from whatever realm, but thanks to link, Twinrova desperately sacrificed herself to revive ganon. Unlike Zelda, Twinrova was inpure, so instead of resurrecting Ganon, they made an insane monster (either that, or an insane Ganon). When Link Defeated him, Ganon regained his Sanity (partially at least) before being destroyed/sent back to his prison realm.

Hmm...

Anyone want to speculate on the original game? It may be the most mysterious title in the series, seeing as how it's based in a portion of the Hyrule that was explorable in its sequel, Adventure of Link, but even then, it's completely geographically different than the Hyrule that we all know and love. If somehow it is the same Hyrule, given that it has both Death Mountain and the Lost Woods, why has Ganon taken over Death Mountain? The Gorons are assumably gone or dead (likely by the will of Ganon), the Zora are no where to be found, and all is different. Of course, it's an incredibly primitive game in comparison to the modern Zelda games, being based around hardly a story at all, but rather from point a to b to c all the way to the end of the game. While it wasn't linear, it still was.

It's really difficult to talk about the game, because most things said will probably be opinion based as the game does not have much to offer at all conceptually.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Technically it DOES have Zora...

"River" Zora.

The first kind of Zora created before they were a species that looked nothing like they did in the previous games.

 

[Spire]

Technically it DOES have Zora...

"River" Zora.

The first kind of Zora created before they were a species that looked nothing like they did in the previous games.

Oh yeah. The fat, red and green fish that shoot fireballs at you. I thought it may have had them, but I was not sure. I'm glad that the Zora have changed substantially from those. The last game they were present in (in their original forms) were the Oracle games, right? They made a slight reappearance in PH as warrior-type creatures with a redesign.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, the Zora as we know it didn't exist in LoZ. They started to appear in a Link to the past, and they weren't common place (as a non-enemy) until... Ocarina of time!. The original Legend of Zelda had these as enemies. I theorize that this takes place in the Adult timeline, as this is the timeline where Zoras disappear (I mentioned this earlier). Zoras in the early games were likely some beast named this in memory of the ancient race.

Oh, and by the way, Gorons debut appearance was also Ocarina of time. The fact that they appear in Both timelines means that the Death mountain in LoZ is not the same as that in Ocarina of time and the Child timeline.

Oh, and Gerudo were either assimilated or died out by the events of Wind waker and Twilight Princess in their respective timelines.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

theoretically, the people that called the fish monsters "Zora" could have named them such because of legends of a fish race named Zora that died out by that time, but didn't realize they were two different things. They just noticed they were fish humanoids and figured they might be the same.

 

[Charizard92]

^ That could be very true. Now, the only real catch with our brain wave is that supposedly in Wind waker, Ganondorf dies (I am not spoiling it, just look it up or play the game!). My answer, either he didn't die, or his soul managed to get a physical form (a bipedal boar human monster thing [except in TP, where it's a boar, lion, thing]).

 

[Spire]

^ That could be very true. Now, the only real catch with our brain wave is that supposedly in Wind waker, Ganondorf dies (I am not spoiling it, just look it up or play the game!). My answer, either he didn't die, or his soul managed to get a physical form (a bipedal boar human monster thing [except in TP, where it's a boar, lion, thing]).

I think of Ganon as a demon who takes the form of a human, Ganondorf, to fit in to society (even if its not done out of its own will, but rather by nature) so that it can more easily usurp the throne and take over. People will follow a man, not a pig.

And of course, Ganon can also take the form of a beast, and potentially a number of other forms (as seen in TP, when Ganon was a giant ghostly head).

 

[Charizard92]

Whoops, I kinda posted the same though twice. Sorry.


Anyway, IMO is kinda the reverse of yours Spire. Ganondorf was the original King of evil, and after he was killed his soul took a physical form as a reflection of his inner self. LoZ and it's sequel, Adventure of Link (Two noob doges in a row, Woot!) would have likely taken place in the adult timeline (due to some slight evidence for LoZ and the fact that II takes place afterwards, I think). Link to the past could take place in either timeline, but It is more likely to be in the adult timeline, as Ganondorf never got the chance to discover the Sacred realm in the Child timeline.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why are the weilder of the triforce always called "Link, Zelda, and Gannondorf"?

I know the tradition, but imagine the plot twist if the weilders of the triforce were not those three? Power goes to a Goron, and wisdom goes to one of the Ooccaa?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Why are the weilder of the triforce always called "Link, Zelda, and Gannondorf"?

I know the tradition, but imagine the plot twist if the weilders of the triforce were not those three? Power goes to a Goron, and wisdom goes to one of the Ooccaa?

Zelda and Link keep getting reincarnated. Ganondorf has always been the same person which is why he's the only person with the Triforce of Power

 

[toon_marth]

Zelda and Link keep getting reincarnated. Ganondorf has always been the same person which is why he's the only person with the Triforce of Power

Thats true. Even the inaccurate zelda show from the 90's had that right.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I know the tradition.

I am painfully aware of the tradition.

I am aware that that tradition has pretty much held since the very first Zelda game.

I am aware that a Zelda in which everything stays the same as all the Zelda's before it will be criticized for not changing the formula at all.

I am unaware of a reason to stick with tradition so rigidly when it is such a convenient plot twist.

And I really want Gannondorf to stay dead this time.

 

[Darkslash]

Oracle of the ages/Seasons: Ordinarily, this would be a complete enigma on where to place this one. I just made a wild guess on placing it before TP. There is one reason this is placed in the Child timeline, Twinrova. In Orcania of time, Twinrova (aka Koume and Kotake) were killed by Adult link in the Adult timeline (and Ironically went to heaven and humorously argued against each other). Twinrova is very much alive in The Oracle games which pretty much threw out the door the idea that the games were in the adult timeline (unless there are multiple Ganons). My placement was based on the fact that there was a Ganon to pull back into the light realm, although you can easily argue otherwise (ex the ganon in the Oracle games could just be dark magic or something to that caliber).

My Gosh I never thought of that. Nice job man, you really sniped it there!

Well in the Original Zelda there was no Master Sword. Instead it had a Magical Sword.

Oddly enough Hero's Shade/Spirit carries a sword that is theorized to be the Magical Sword.

Spoiler

*NOTE LINK IS NOT WIELDING THE MASTER SWORD OR MAGICAL SWORD IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED TP

More oddly enough the only difference between the Hero Shade sword and the Master Sword Is the hilt. Even Shade's Sword has the curve with the Triforce in it. Also when compared the Master Sword and the Hero's Spirit in a ratio towards Link, the sword is the same length.

Another thing interesting to note(according to Zelda Wiki), the Magic Sword is found in a graveyard in the Lost woods. Dead Guy wielding a sword with the blade of the master sword, Lost woods,Master Sword found in the lost woods...It kinda adds up.

 

[Charizard92]

According to Adventure of Link, it has been customary to name The princess of Hyrule Zelda, since the Zelda in that game was frozen in a deep slumber (there will likely be another reason, as our timeline has Zelda II after the original, and way after Ocarina). Ganon has been the same one since the series start (at least that's what most fans believe). Link is really the oddball (then again, you can always change his name to whatever the **** your heart desires), and I think the reason was because the person who named him thought it would be a good name (first one) or to provide SOME link (mind the pun) to the original Hero (subsequent ones). Oh, and Oracle of Ages/ Seasons doesn't have to be the same Link as Ocarina of time (this is a bit better since no Link has been over 18, or even 17 for that matter).

With the Ganon never being quite dead (put Monty Python skit here) thing, to be fair he has died... 4 times (three in the Adult timeline [Wind Waker, Legend of Zelda, and according to my placement, Link to the past], and once in the Child timeline [Twilight Princess]). A likely reason for this is that while GanonDORF is completely dead (wind waker and Twilight Princess), his soul, which takes the form of the beast Ganon, has not. Now how to explain how Ganon died 3 times in the adult timeline... Black magic? His followers tried this in Zelda II, they might have dug up a different spell.

Edit: Have you actually Checked the Zeldawiki page on Hero's Shade by the way? If you check, there is a (well supported) theory that The Hero Shade is... THE GHOST OF THE HERO OF TIME! Let the mental meltdowns commence.

http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Hero's_Shade

Here's what they say.

 

[Darkslash]

With the Ganon never being quite dead (put Monty Python skit here) thing, to be fair he has died... 4 times (three in the Adult timeline [Wind Waker, Legend of Zelda, and according to my placement, Link to the past], and once in the Child timeline [Twilight Princess]). A likely reason for this is that while GanonDORF is completely dead (wind waker and Twilight Princess), his soul, which takes the form of the beast Ganon, has not. Now how to explain how Ganon died 3 times in the adult timeline... Black magic? His followers tried this in Zelda II, they might have dug up a different spell.

No your right about the Link to the past Placement. Alttp is around a century before LoZ. Which raises another question.

When does The Legend of Zelda take place? If wind Waker is 100 years after Oot, and Alttp is roughly 100 years before LoZ, does that mean LoZ is 150-200 years after Wind Waker?

Edit: Have you actually Checked the Zeldawiki page on Hero's Shade by the way? If you check, there is a (well supported) theory that The Hero Shade is... THE GHOST OF THE HERO OF TIME! Let the mental meltdowns commence.

http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Hero's_Shade

Here's what they say.

Yup we discussed it around page 50 I think.

 

[Charizard92]

Ok, for starters, what does Alttp stand for?

And second, the original can end up taking place around 200 years or so after Ocarina of time. The series takes place over a millennium (as of right now) across a timeline with a branch at it's beginning due to a paradox, so it shouldn't be that much of a shock.

 

[Scott!]

ALttP: A Link to the Past, the third game. (It's awesome; play it)

 

[c3gill]

Ok, for starters, what does Alttp stand for?

/cry- asking what (A)Lttp is in Zelda thread?

 

[Scott!]

Hey, he just told us he's new, and that he's only played TP. He's also had some good stuff to say. I think we can let it slide, just this once. :D

 

[Charizard92]

Oh, and I also kinda need a guide to avoid getting lost (Nowadays I just see Youtube videos and get a basic Idea on what to do [namely with Boss fights] and try to go with that [I have still yet to lose much from any boss fight. Then again, I have gotten several game overs {**** you twilgiht messengers!} and have still yet reached Arbiter grounds {yes Progress is slow}]). Myamoto has stated that the order (when there was only 5 games) Chronologically was Ocarina of time, LoZ, Adventure of link, and Link to the past. Link's awakening was hard to pin down (the Idea of a split timeline was years off), so we can use that to place the games in order of each other. With this, we can make a crude Idea of a timeline:

Ocarina of time (split here)

Child timeline: Majora's mask-Oracle of Seasons-Link's awakening (according to spire's theory)-Oracle of Ages (official end)- twilight Princess-b (see note)

Adult timeline: Wind waker-Phantom hourglass-a (see note)

Note: to avoid getting hasty, I've decided to put a break after a point where it is hard to tack down where the rest of the games go. While we Know which order they do go, we don't know for sure WHICH timeline they occur on. Because Ganon was ruler of the Sacred Realm/Dark world, the current theory is that they take place in the adult timeline, as Ganondorf never got the Chance in the Child timeline. A link game will have to occur in either a or b. If the link Game has Hero of winds Link and Tetra finding a new Hyrule, then the early games occurred in the adult timeline in a. If not, then they occurred in b the Child timeline. The connection game will be called the missing link (mind the pun).

(a or b)-Legend of Zelda-Legend of Zelda II, adventure of Link- Link to the past

Games currently unknown on where they occur on the timeline:

Four swords
Four sword adventures
Minish cap
Confirmed upcoming Legend of Zelda game on the Wii (possibly the missing link)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

ROFL...Missing LINK

 

[c3gill]

Oh, and I also kinda need a guide to avoid getting lost (Nowadays I just see Youtube videos and get a basic Idea on what to do [namely with Boss fights] and try to go with that [I have still yet to lose much from any boss fight. Then again, I have gotten several game overs

Carry more fairies in bottles! Game Overs are BAD! and just keep playing- we were all there once, after the 3rd or 4th time through a game it becomes like eating cake- delicious and addicting.

and make sure to throw (LOTS AND LOTS OF) rupees into the well in the middle of the lake in LttP. and remember to collect all the gold skulltulas or gold bugs.

 

[Scott!]

If you haven't reached Arbiter's Grounds, you haven't gotten to the best dungeons in that game. Keep on going; it just gets better.

Also, as Spire said before, AoL has to be on the WW line, since the sages we know and love were only awakened on the adult timeline, and the towns in Hyrule are named after them (plus Mido, and minus Impa). There's no reason to name the towns after random, insignificant citizens in the child timeline.

Just curious, since I always enjoy looking at the maps and looking for the continuity, does it really make sense for ALttP to come after LoZ and AoL? The ALttP map bears a passable resemblance to the later games, though Lake Hylia's moved, or rather the west is in the south, and the south is in the south-east, and there's a random forest in the north. Far from perfect, but they can be reconciled somewhat. But the LoZ and AoL map don't look anything like any other Hyrule. They could be the new Hyrule, or they could be a drained, post-ocean Hyrule. But does it make sense for Hyrule to change, and then change back? Sigh.

 

[M3WTW0 J0SH]

I always thought it'd be cool if you fought along side Ganondorf in an effort to defeat a greater evil.

Of course, I probably won't get my wish, but that would be awesome.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I always thought it'd be cool if you fought along side Ganondorf in an effort to defeat a greater evil.

Of course, I probably won't get my wish, but that would be awesome.

Super Smash Bros Brawl

 

[Spire]

Since it doesn't look like we're going to get a board of our own for Zelda, do you guys think it could be useful if we start our own forum for it?

It would be incredibly helpful if there was a Zelda board here on SWF, because then we'd have multiple threads about all types of information, ideas, concepts, speculation, etc, etc. It would actually boost the booming activity that this thread alone has, as the more threads, the more desire to post, and the lower a chance that we'll lose track of what's going on, as the pages keep turning and turning in this thread.

It would of course be much more convenient, but I doubt the admins will allow a Zelda board, as there's no competitive following. We all know that the series deserves a board of its own, but as I started this post, perhaps an entirely separate forum would be easier. What do you guys think?

 

[SkylerOcon]

I wouldn't mind a seperate forum, but there are already places like Zelda Universe. I don't have an account on there, but I lurk.

@Charizard

You've proposed some interesting stuff. I hope you're right about Zelda Wii being the so-called 'missing link'. Hopefully it will solve the timeline thing once and for all.

 

[Scott!]

It would, since we always get sidetracked. *Ponders* If it were set up something like here, we'd have of course a time line section, other areas for details on each game, etc. It would be nice if we could have our own here, of course, but something tells me not to get my hopes up. Cause we really do get off the topics pretty fast here. I remember when I first got to exploring here, months ago, and saw that Zelda had only one thread, I was surprised by how such a significant series, with so much potential discussion, was relegated to a single thread, especially when Pokemon and F-Zero had their own. Of course, they have a competitive following, especially Pokemon, but I don't think it would be that much to ask for a Zelda one. If they don't give us one, then our own forum would be nice.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I agree with you Scott, but maybe you guys should PM JV if you want a seperate forum. I sure want it, so I'll probably be doing the same.

BUT!

We probably shouldn't talk about it here. Back to regular Zelda discussion, yes?

 

[Ochobobo]

Child timeline: Majora's mask-Oracle of Seasons-Link's awakening (according to spire's theory)-Oracle of Ages (official end)- twilight Princess-b (see note)

I'm sorry, I must have missed that. What was Spire's theory? It sounds intriguing. Could someone give me a quote or say what page it was on?

Why are the weilder of the triforce always called "Link, Zelda, and Gannondorf"?

I know the tradition, but imagine the plot twist if the weilders of the triforce were not those three? Power goes to a Goron, and wisdom goes to one of the Ooccaa?

One thing I like about the placement of who has the Triforces is that it gives a great reason for why Ganondorf wants to kidnap Zelda. He wants her Triforce of Wisdom, and it would cause Link to try and rescue her, then he could get the Triforce of Courage from him. It would be like killing two birds with one stone if he didn't fail miserably everytime.

Actually I think that reason for kidnapping Zelda was only used in Ocarina of Time, but it's still a great idea. Who knows why Bowser keeps wanting to kidnap Peach? Besides the obvious answer, plus it is a kid's game. . .

And yes, I think a separate Zelda forum would be great idea.

 

[Vorguen]

I agree, I love everything that goes on in this thread but sometimes I can't keep up with the millions of posts that occur.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I'm sorry, I must have missed that. What was Spire's theory? It sounds intriguing. Could someone give me a quote or say what page it was on?

Spire's timeline is on the front page. Let me look for his reasonings... hold on. I'll edit them into the post if I can find them.

EDIT:

The Minish Cap, Four Swords, and Four Swords Adventures definitely do not come before Ocarina of Time, and if they are to fit at all into the timeline(s), it would be long after, but due to no real consistency besides the appearance of Vaati in all three games, and Ganon's revival in the latter of the three, the games have no surefire placement at all. The Minish Cap and Four Swords in particular would strongly obstruct and contradict many, if not all of the other Zelda games, if placed before Ocarina of Time.

What happens before Ocarina of Time is the Unification War, which is caused by the Dark Interlopers creation of the Fused Shadow, and its usage to obtain the Triforce and take over Hyrule. Because of this, the Triforce is revealed to all of the races of Hyrule, and it wages war between everyone through fear of one of the other races using the Triforce to oppress and subjugate all of the others. Ganondorf, however, aids the King of Hyrule in this war, and rises as the "hero" of Hyrule - stopping the war, and catalyzing the unification of all of the races under one banner. However, he does not want the ruler of the land to be a Hylian, rather himself. So, he befriends the King of Hyrule and over the decade of time between Link's birth and the beginning of Ocarina of Time, he learns the secrets of the Triforce, the Master Sword, the Sacred Realm, and furthermore, how to access all of them. Of course, he then turns on his "friend", the King of Hyrule, kills him, destroys Hyrule Castle, and takes over the land.

Now, where does Minish Cap fit in? Firstly, the whole idea of the Link in The Minish Cap as being the first Link due to his acquirement of the green hood and how that trait is passed down to all heroes over time is ridiculous. Link wore green in Ocarina of Time because the Kokiri wore green. He adopted their clothing as he believed himself to be one of them, and as he grew into Adult Link, he upgraded the clothing to sport armor and what not. THAT is the look that all other Links adopt, especially as seen in Twilight Princess and Wind Waker. Both Links in those games are rewarded with the "Hero's Clothes", which are directly influenced by the clothing that Link, the Hero of Time wore.

Honestly, The Minish Cap, Four Swords, and Four Swords Adventures do not fit anywhere in my honest opinion. I can see how Minish Cap could fit before Ocarina of Time, but it just doesn't work. It's an "alternative" beginning to the timeline, because all-in-all, the games can be arranged however we like. It's just a matter of practicality and, well, personal preferences in the placement of the games.

 

[Ochobobo]

Oh wow, nice diagram on the first page, lol. Interesting theories, and thanks for the quote, but it doesn't really fit with how Charizard referenced it...

Child timeline: Majora's mask-Oracle of Seasons-Link's awakening (according to spire's theory)-Oracle of Ages (official end)- twilight Princess-b (see note)

I was wondering why Link's Awakening is between the two Oracle games, and why it's official that Seasons is first and Ages is second.

 

[Grunt]

I've never heard of minish cap being first because of the cap. I understand the kokiri dress part, but what about the intro to minish cap? Doesn't it say the original hero was the hero of Man, and not time?

 

[Vulcan55]

I don't remember why, but Minish cap was first.

 

[Charizard92]

I was wondering why Link's Awakening is between the two Oracle games, and why it's official that Seasons is first and Ages is second.

After I proposed that the Oracle games take place in the Child timeline (Because Twinrova was alive, when she/they died in the adult timeline In ocarina of time), so spire proposed that in between the games (Seasons is before Ages for sake of argument), Link was traveling to the other land when he got Shipwrecked to the Location of Link's awakening.

Oh, and I tried the Brawl demo, during the adult timeline I was destroyed by the redeads. I hate them. They also get a reintroduction in Arbiter Grounds (albeit they slash at you this time), so I am possibly going to yell something to the caliber of "I HATE ZOMBIES!". (Kinda Ironic that I plan to get Left 4 Dead on My birthday in a month (17th)). Although Stallord is kinda cool. (To the point where Stallord is the final boss of the Wii zapper tack on game [yes I do have it], albeit with Armogohma's theme instead of his own [His own is on another level])

 

[Ochobobo]

Ahhh, I played Ages first, then Seasons. So I figured that sailing away scene was just for the completion of both games, and could possibly be on Ages if you play it second. I didn't know it was just Seasons, lol.

And redeads are waaay scarier in OoT than in TP, lol. Also, I didn't know brawl's demo of it had an Adult timeline save file, I never tried it. So you saw them in the ruins of Hyrule Marketplace? That was crazy seeing that for the first time, after seeing how cheerful that place used to be as a kid...

 

[Spire]

Ahhh, I played Ages first, then Seasons. So I figured that sailing away scene was just for the completion of both games, and could possibly be on Ages if you play it second. I didn't know it was just Seasons, lol.

And redeads are waaay scarier in OoT than in TP, lol. Also, I didn't know brawl's demo of it had an Adult timeline save file, I never tried it. So you saw them in the ruins of Hyrule Marketplace? That was crazy seeing that for the first time, after seeing how cheerful that place used to be as a kid...

To clear up some things for you. Neither Oracle of Seasons or Ages officially come first, as you can complete either of them, and with a link-up, can "travel" to the other game to complete it, after which, you face Twinrova and ultimately Ganon.

Seeing as how Link's Awakening was first created to be a direct sequel to A Link to the Past, and with ALttP's re-release on the GBA with updated artwork to match the style that the Oracle games introduced, it ties all four of the games together. Look at it this way. If Link was to set sail away from Hyrule in ALttP, where would he go? Where would he even set sail from, seeing as how there is no ocean? Also, the boat seen at the end of both Oracle games is identical to the boat seen in the intro to Link's Awakening, so it can only be assumed that LA takes place between the Oracle games.

As to why I placed Oracle of Seasons before Oracle of Ages, I did so because that's just how they are advertised. OoS always got priority over OoA. Also, OoS feels more "youthful", while OoA feels more "mature", so the youthful game would come before the mature game, right (yeah, that was a long shot).

Anyways, Skyler brought up a timeline I made ages ago, one that I plan on reworking now that I've worked out some more ideas.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, I think Link to the past takes place at the end of the timeline. Myamoto stated (when there were only 5 games) that the correct order of the first 5 games were Ocarina, Legend of Zelda, Zelda II, and Link to the past. Link's awakening didn't really fit in with this. Your conclusion with Link's awakening places it in Between the Oracle games IMO. Link to the past would be the end of the classic timeline. Where the Classic timeline should be placed is up to debate.

Here's an updated version of the timelines:


Ocarina of time - (a & c)
adult (a) timeline- Wind waker-Phantom Hourglass-(*)
Child (c) timeline- Majora's mask- Oracle of (Seasons)-Link's awakening-Oracle of (ages)-twilight Princess-(**)
Classic (* or **, depending on whether or not Winds Link and Tetra find new hyrule or not) timeline: Legend of Zelda- Adventure of Link- Link to the past

Vaati Timeline: Minish cap- Four swords- Four swords adventures

Things we need to find out: Is it correct to place Link's awakening in between The oracle games?
Which order do we put the Oracle games? (I put the end of the titles in parentheses, for some flexibility)
Which timeline do the classic games come in?
Where the **** do we put in the Vaati timeline?!

Oh, and by the way, I cleared Arbiter grounds and am now working on snowpeak. I HAD a rare Chu & blue potion too, but Darkhammer took that away (I will stock up on the soup, and I still have the fairy tears [4th bottle is lantern oil]).

 

[M3WTW0 J0SH]

Super Smash Bros Brawl

That's not what I'm talking about.

I mean, an actual Zelda game where that's the point.