The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[Falconv1.0]

The idea that it will take 5 years for Brawl's metagame to fully develop is laughable. Just throwing that in there. It really is a foolish thing to say.

I assume you mean you think it will take less than 5 years.


Eh, I'm really trying to get into Melee now, the fact I missed out on it (atm Melee tourneys are out of my reach, not going to go into detail) makes me uber sad face. Seriously, Ganon had combos in Melee. That ALONE makes Melee better.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I assume you mean you think it will take less than 5 years.


Eh, I'm really trying to get into Melee now, the fact I missed out on it (atm Melee tourneys are out of my reach, not going to go into detail) makes me uber sad face. Seriously, Ganon had combos in Melee. That ALONE makes Melee better.

Ganon can "combo". Side-B --> D-Tilt --> something... depends on percent

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Or perhaps you're just missing my point...

Let me be absolutely clear.



If community sentiment is correct, and he does in fact hard counter a lot of otherwise viable characters, and he maintains this status in a mature metagame, then he deserves to be banned at that point.

That is all I'm arguing.



What exactly the threshold is, that's very much open to debate, but I'm not even REALLY making the claim that he actually does hard-counter enough characters to be banned at this point, only that he SEEMS to, but that's not even worth debating, it's merely an impression to be replaced by cold hard facts when those are available.

Again, I'm far from alone in this impression. But if the impression and community sentiment is incorrect, then of course he's not ban-worthy, my argument takes that into account.

So, if you are correct and MK does not hard-counter enough chars to be considered, then my impression and the sentiment of the community is incorrect, but not necessarily my argument, because my argument takes that into account.



Primarily because their vulnerability is an enormous indicator of the fact that it is too early to tell.

I am putting this forth as community sentiment, and saying that IF AND ONLY IF community sentiment is correct, and he maintains the status when the metagame is mature.



Because correct or not, he's borderline, as is anything else that isn't clearly "destroys all other characters" needs a truly mature metagame in order to even consider banning a character. Perhaps 5 years is a bit much, we'll see. However, I chose that because the metagame should be mature at that point.




Ummm, because the fact that they're so based on impression and supposition is precisely the reason why my central point is so strong.

Really, this isn't the type of argument that you can take in chunks and dissect, it's got a central point, and everything else leads naturally to that conclusion, and nothing makes sense without the context.

Again, I do not favor banning MK now. I furthermore recognize that the conclusions are dependent on the correctness of things which might not be correct, which is why I provided an alternate conclusion, namely that given the time to develop the metagame, he will not be banned.

When exactly did it become the community sentiment that he hard countered most of the cast. You keep saying that, but to my knowledge no one thinks he hard counters anyone. A hard counter is like 8-2, name me one character, other than bottom tier who suck anyway who lose out 8-2 against MK. His matchups generally range from even to 7-3 with most of them being 6-4. If you can't deal with a 6-4 I don't know what to tell you.
Sure it's true that he is the best in the game, and he has no truly "bad" matchups, however he does have plenty of even ones, and people are now saying that he gets countered on the Pipes stage. So there are decent options against him. And really even if your main has a 6-4 against him like many characters do, that is easily overcome with knowledge of the matchup which is easily obtained given how commonly he is encountered, and how frequently he is discussed.

 

[Pk_Starstorm11]

This thread is why unfortunatly I like the thought of using Items in Tournys. So hey even if someone is that good, items could change the match up completely. And IMO Meta Knight can be stopped.

 

[GofG]

This thread is why unfortunatly I like the thought of using Items in Tournys. So hey even if someone is that good, items could change the match up completely. And IMO Meta Knight can be stopped.

dizzy::bigthumbu:nerd::******::smoke::devil::hipsmile:alien::redx::flame::suess::veryconfu:freak::newbie::blush::smiliegor:uzi::enforcer::sniper:hainsaw::rocket::teleportg:bigrocket:ouch:

Man, look at all those emotes! I'm pretty cool.

 

[Yuna]

This thread is why unfortunatly I like the thought of using Items in Tournys. So hey even if someone is that good, items could change the match up completely. And IMO Meta Knight can be stopped.

Yes, let's aim for a Competitive ruleset where being the best player is in no way a guarantee of winning or even doing well! Yay!

I can't help but wonder why it's always players of... lesser skill who promote items and who like "mixing it up" while good players just want a clean ruleset which promotes skill. Gee... I wonder why!

 

[Afropony]

yeh but if we had items in Brawl tournaments it would ruin the little skill that is needed in the game.

 

[Mystify]

This thread is why unfortunatly I like the thought of using Items in Tournys. So hey even if someone is that good, items could change the match up completely. And IMO Meta Knight can be stopped.

Items can never be allowed, simply because of this

I'm playing the best Brawl player in the world. He uses Meta Knight, I use Sonic. Match starts, he starts beating me up and knocks me away. 'Ooh! A pokeball under my feet! Ooh! Latios!' While he's airdodging that ... 'Ooh! assist trophy!' Now that's annoying the guy as well. 'What's this? A golden hammer? ... Well ... I might as well!'


Sure, the chance of my getting all those killer items in a row is fairly low, but the point is, it COULD happen. Anything which can allow a player of my skill level to beat someone leagues above me, should not be allowed in tournament play.

 

[adumbrodeus]

When exactly did it become the community sentiment that he hard countered most of the cast. You keep saying that, but to my knowledge no one thinks he hard counters anyone. A hard counter is like 8-2, name me one character, other than bottom tier who suck anyway who lose out 8-2 against MK. His matchups generally range from even to 7-3 with most of them being 6-4. If you can't deal with a 6-4 I don't know what to tell you.
Sure it's true that he is the best in the game, and he has no truly "bad" matchups, however he does have plenty of even ones, and people are now saying that he gets countered on the Pipes stage. So there are decent options against him. And really even if your main has a 6-4 against him like many characters do, that is easily overcome with knowledge of the matchup which is easily obtained given how commonly he is encountered, and how frequently he is discussed.

Hard-counter is 70-30 generally speaking. A couple of boards do it differently, but generally it's 70-30 or worse.

The general sentiment is that a 60-40 match-up is a relatively good match-up because he has so many 70-30s or worse.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Yes, let's aim for a Competitive ruleset where being the best player is in no way a guarantee of winning or even doing well! Yay!

I can't help but wonder why it's always players of... lesser skill who promote items and who like "mixing it up" while good players just want a clean ruleset which promotes skill. Gee... I wonder why!

Why do you keep posting, trying to correct noobs xP

id say about 6,500 of your posts are correct stupid **** people should allready, (but dont) know

 

[Yuna]

Why do you keep posting, trying to correct noobs xP

id say about 6,500 of your posts are correct stupid **** people should allready, (but dont) know

Because in 1 out of 20 cases, the n00b might actually wise up. In 15 out of 20 cases, the n00bs will at least get offended for having been called out on their stupidity.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Because in 1 out of 20 cases, the n00b might actually wise up. In 15 out of 20 cases, the n00bs will at least get offended for having been called out on their stupidity.

And you just relish in their ire, don't you?

 

[Yuna]

And you just relish in their ire, don't you?

Stupidity must be combated. And out of those 15, maybe a few will realize their stupidity and strive to become... less stupid.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Stupidity must be combated. And out of those 15, maybe a few will realize their stupidity and strive to become... less stupid.

This. Unfortunately out of those 15 I would say maybe one or two at best will wise up.

 

[Arigatex]

I think theres some rule or something where if only one character is being played its banned...not sure someone correct me if I'm wrong

hell lets all use MK so it gets banned the following turneys

 

[Affinity]

hell lets all use MK so it gets banned the following turneys

Yeah.... that won't happen.

 

[cutter]

On themanadrain.com you get infractions for saying stupid ****

 

[Jack Kieser]

Items can never be allowed, simply because of this

I'm playing the best Brawl player in the world. He uses Meta Knight, I use Sonic. Match starts, he starts beating me up and knocks me away. 'Ooh! A pokeball under my feet! Ooh! Latios!' While he's airdodging that ... 'Ooh! assist trophy!' Now that's annoying the guy as well. 'What's this? A golden hammer? ... Well ... I might as well!'


Sure, the chance of my getting all those killer items in a row is fairly low, but the point is, it COULD happen. Anything which can allow a player of my skill level to beat someone leagues above me, should not be allowed in tournament play.

I just wanted to pop in while I had a chance and correct this; all those items are banned in 1v1 play, so that would never happen. That is all.

 

[Yuna]

On themanadrain.com you get infractions for saying stupid ****

What? I might just join that forum on principle.

 

[Gabz]

Maybe MK is one of the most balanced in a powerful way in Brawl but i dont think it should be banned, its like a char well used a good snake for example can beat a good MK mtachup well it could be a litte unfair its matchup chart but sitll its normal beatable to any other player maybe a little more difficult but still. Just for the info i HATE a lot MK well at least the good ones U.U.

 

[MarKO X]

This. Unfortunately out of those 15 I would say maybe one or two at best will wise up.

Not stupid... just ignorant...

I can say I've wised up, but I was never stupid, just ignorant in the art of smash.

 

[cutter]

What? I might just join that forum on principle.

www.themanadrain.com

If you play MTG and you're a hardcore Vintage player, this is the place.

 

[Yuna]

Not stupid... just ignorant...

I can say I've wised up, but I was never stupid, just ignorant in the art of smash.

There are many who are just stupid. As in plain stupid.

www.themanadrain.com

If you play MTG and you're a hardcore Vintage player, this is the place.

I don't play MTG, but I might join just for the draconian modding.

 

[RDK]

What? I might just join that forum on principle.

I've come to the conclusion long ago that the majority of the human race is generally stupid, if not simply easily suggestible.

The problem is that they're not that suggestible when presented with reason.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I've come to the conclusion long ago that the majority of the human race is generally stupid, if not simply easily suggestible.

The problem is that they're not that suggestible when presented with reason.

other than torturing the person its difficult to change their minds because they are just so **** stubborn.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Both sides tend to be stubborn. One side has reason, and the other side has probably had experiences (which were most likely not accurate to the tournament scene) that conflict with true reason.

 

[thumbswayup]

Both sides tend to be stubborn. One side has reason, and the other side has probably had experiences (which were most likely not accurate to the tournament scene) that conflict with true reason.

Obama vs McCain.

 

[ShadowLink84]

except mcCain Lacks reason XD

 

[thumbswayup]

Exactly .

 

[Yuna]

Both sides tend to be stubborn. One side has reason, and the other side has probably had experiences (which were most likely not accurate to the tournament scene) that conflict with true reason.

Yes, but one would have to be stupid to base one's entire opinion on the Competitive scene of Smash on one or a few bad experiences, especially when obviously knowledgeable people presents one with proof against one's opinion.

 

[RDK]

Obama vs McCain.

Both of them are horrendous. McCain, because he's a Bible-thumping Republican and Obama because he's a flaming communist liberal.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yes, but one would have to be stupid to base one's entire opinion on the Competitive scene of Smash on one or a few bad experiences, especially when obviously knowledgeable people presents one with proof against one's opinion.

You misinterpretted me. These experiences are not necesarily tournament based, nor are they bad experiences. Rather, I refer to the scrubs and noobs who learn everything they know through the only outlet available to them, other scrubs, noobs, and level nine computers. You can tell them that these experiences conflict with truth, but you could not convince them otherwise because of the hundreds of hours they have played the game WRONG which they used to convince themselves that they are right when they aren't.

 

[ShadowLink84]

WOO COMMUNISM!

Spoiler

lulz

 

[ice-]

Both of them are horrendous. McCain, because he's a Bible-thumping Republican and Obama because he's a flaming communist liberal.

I wish....

 

[thumbswayup]

Both of them are horrendous. McCain, because he's a Bible-thumping Republican and Obama because he's a flaming communist liberal.

For you, it's going to be the lesser of two evils. Who will you vote for?

 

[RDK]

For you, it's going to be the lesser of two evils. Who will you vote for?

Probably for some no-name libertarian independent who matches up with my ideals, even though nobody like that would ever win. Or I could just not vote at all.

 

[Yuna]

For you, it's going to be the lesser of two evils. Who will you vote for?

Anyone with half a brain would know that McCain and Palin are the greatest evil since... well... ever.

McCain was a lousy soldier who only got into the air force because of his lineage. He graduated at the bottom of his class. Then, while pulling a macho stunt, he crashed a multi-million fighter and killed a large number of men in the ensuing fire. Then, after 7 hours of air time in Vietnam, he got show down.

So he was P.O.W. for a few years, but he's no hero. What the hell did he actually do for the country except cost it countless millions in tax dollars and lives of fellow soldiers? I mean, why would he tout "I am a war hero!" around when anyone who checks his history will find that he wasn't much of a hero? At least Bush had the brains to cover up his military records.

He calls Obama an elitist (funny how that gets thrown around so much) so no good reason at all all the while he and his wife wears designer outfits and fashionable jewelry and he can't even remember how many homes he owns (which are many).

Then there's the ex-wife. She waited faithfully for him for years while he was a P.O.W. A terrible car accident left her disfigured. When he came back, he had an affair with current wife Cindy (worth millions) and filed for a marriage license before his divorce was even finalized. Yay family values!

Every other word out of his mouth is either a lie or a contradiction to something he's said before and he's shown signs of mental disorders, like yelling at people for asking perfectly sound questions. And he's already had 3 bouts of deadly cancer and is 72 years old. Chances are, he might just croak and leave the presidency to...

Sarah Palin, mother of 4 (possibly 5). Yes, she'll be able to juggle the vice presidency and 4 kids, I bet. That's not to mention the grandkid on the way. She might have had an affair with her husband's ex-business partner (who just today or yesterday requested his divorce papers sealed), another yay for family values.

This is a woman who's anti-sex education. She doesn't want sex ed. taught in school, only abstinence. It worked so well for her daughter, after all (pregnant at 17)! Why teach kids about how to have sex responsibly when you can teach them not to have it all? After all, it works so well and who cares that they'll need that info someday?

I mean, look at Sweden and other European nations where sex ed is taught in school. Teen pregnancy and abortion rates aren't dramatically lower here than in the U.S. at all!

Palin also wants creationism taught in schools (because, really, it's a proven theory and every kid should know about it), is under investigation for corruption (divorce her sister? You get fired from your job as a state trooper!), has said, among other things, that she has no idea what a vice president does and shown alarming lack of insight into foreign politics (it's not like the vice president has to go meet foreign diplomats).

Winning ticket? McCain bought the Democrats the victory by choosing Palin as a token female to steal disillusioned Hillary voters (it didn't work, more Hillary voters are more likely to not vote for the Republicans than those who will because of Sarah Palin's pick).

[This has been a rant on American politics by a Swede]

 

[metaXzero]

You need your own show Yuna lol

 

[Yuna]

You misinterpretted me. These experiences are not necesarily tournament based, nor are they bad experiences. Rather, I refer to the scrubs and noobs who learn everything they know through the only outlet available to them, other scrubs, noobs, and level nine computers. You can tell them that these experiences conflict with truth, but you could not convince them otherwise because of the hundreds of hours they have played the game WRONG which they used to convince themselves that they are right when they aren't.

That's not experience.

It's called "hearsay". I didn't misinterpret you at all. You used the wrong word.

 

[Yuna]

You need your own show Yuna lol

The sad thing is that I probably know more about the ongoing U.S. election than half of the (mostly idiotic) voters who'll be voting come November, most of which will vote solely based on which party the candidates are members of.