The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[Ulevo]

Funny, Marth fits most of the things you said.


Only his Fsmash is slow as hell and his Shuttle Loop leaves him wide open (unless he cancels it with a move, but he's still open for a while there). Kill moves aren't very reliable or good if they leave you wide open on whiff.

Yuna, although I definitely do not believe Meta Knight is ban worthy, it almost sounds as if you're exaggerating your points for the sake of your argument.

Meta Knight has FSmash and Utilt as kill options, but they are rarely ever used due to them being less efficient. Considering the other options he has, I'd say your point on how FSmash is slow is totally irrelevant. DSmash, Nair, Shuttle Loop and Glide Attack are all much more effective at killing. And Shuttle Loop rarely leaves openings unless a player is completely prepared for it. You need to consider that unless a player Perfect Shields or Dodges the Glide Attack that will follow afterwards, Meta Knight is exceptionally hard to punish afterwards in a safe manner.

Four recovery moves? Are you counting Mach Tornado (which leave him wide open unless he does it right at the edge, and hey, did you know there are plenty of moves that beat it?) ).

Although there are plenty of moves that do counter the Tornado, not all characters have the ability to do so effectively on the edge. Even though it isn't the safest option to use for recovering, it is still very viable.

and Side B, which leaves him wide open and is hard to steer (but it's quite good) and Down B which barely takes him anywhere? Hey, Peach Bomber is a recovery move too then, I guess.

And Meta-Knight has five mid-air jumps since when?

I know it leaves him open, but any move will if you spam it mindlessly or don't use it intelligently (barring overly obvious ones such as Ganondorfs UTilt). And since when have you ever used how difficult a move is to perform to support an argument?

And he has four mid air jumps, five with the inclusion of his regular jump. Don't be so nitpicky, you knew what he meant.

Never mind the fact that he's got a pretty hard time recovering vertically except for with jumps and Up B (and even Up B is a bit wonky on that front). Characters with better recoveries? Pit (multiple jumps, glide, Up B from Hell, though he has to land afterwards) has a better recovery IMO (but I could very well be wrong here). Ever heard of R.O.B. as long as he doesn't die from the spike itself, he'll most probably recover from it? Jigglypuff still has Rising Pound (and multiple jumps).


And I can challenge your arguments if I find them faulty. Just because you say "I don't think he should be banned..." doesn't give you a "Get out of challenges" card.

Drill Rush provides excellent vertical recovery for Meta Knight, and although the mid air jumps are small individually, they add to a sufficient recovery.

Also, I'd have to disagree with you on the Pit recovery. If it weren't for the fact that his Glide Attack makes his Glide so dangerous, and the fact that his Shuttle Loop weren't ridiculous, coupled with the fact that Pit is dead once he's hit out of his Up B, I might agree with you. It's mostly the latter. But Pit does not have better recovery. R.O.B. comes closer, but not quite. Jigglypuff is near equal with Meta Knight I would say.


Just thought I'd point those things out. But yeah, people who think Meta Knight is Akuma really need to smell the coffee.

 

[Yuna]

Meta Knight has FSmash and Utilt as kill options, but they are rarely ever used due to them being less efficient.

Dsmash is much faster than Fsmash, which is slow and leaves him open. U-tilt isn't that strong of a KO move, though. When people say "KO move", they usually mean moves that, you know, actually KO at lowish to mid-percentages, not moves that requires 120% or so to kill because at that point, most moves will kill (unless it's Meta-Knight at which point he still has limited options).

DSmash, Nair, Shuttle Loop and Glide Attack are all much more effective at killing. And Shuttle Loop rarely leaves openings unless a player is completely prepared for it. You need to consider that unless a player Perfect Shields or Dodges the Glide Attack that will follow afterwards, Meta Knight is exceptionally hard to punish afterwards in a safe manner.

Why would one have top dodge the glide attack? Just shield it and you'll have at least a free mixup most of the time.

Although there are plenty of moves that do counter the Tornado, not all characters have the ability to do so effectively on the edge. Even though it isn't the safest option to use for recovering, it is still very viable.

I was merely pointing out its flaws.

I know it leaves him open, but any move will if you spam it mindlessly or don't use it intelligently (barring overly obvious ones such as Ganondorfs UTilt). And since when have you ever used how difficult a move is to perform to support an argument?

Certain moves leave you open on block. And we generally block a lot in fighting games, because it would idiotic not to. And if a move leaves you wide open on block, then it's not really game-breaking, now is it? Especially not when it's not even that good as a recovery move. THC is talking as if he's got some kind of godly recovery where 4 out of 5 specials will help him recover safely.

I also meant that you can't direct it that well. As in, even with perfect control, it's not like it's Zelda's, Mother's Boys', Sheik's or Fox's Up B where you can direct it any which way.

And he has four mid air jumps, five with the inclusion of his regular jump. Don't be so nitpicky, you knew what he meant.

THC has a history of being uninformed and misremembering things when it comes to Smash. I think he actually thought Meta-Knight has 5 midair jumps.

Drill Rush provides excellent vertical recovery for Meta Knight, and although the mid air jumps are small individually, they add to a sufficient recovery.

Drill Rush is is slow, though, and leaves you slightly open (while it's rushing). What, you think the opponent is just gonna sit back and watch while you recover from below using Drill Rush? And there are people with better recoveries, which was my main point.

Also, I'd have to disagree with you on the Pit recovery. If it weren't for the fact that his Glide Attack makes his Glide so dangerous, and the fact that his Shuttle Loop weren't ridiculous, coupled with the fact that Pit is dead once he's hit out of his Up B, I might agree with you. It's mostly the latter. But Pit does not have better recovery.

I did say I doubted myself on Pit because of (among other things) the fact that he can get hit out of his Up B and then he's dead meat.

R.O.B. comes closer, but not quite. Jigglypuff is near equal with Meta Knight I would say.

R.O.B. has a better recovery. It's insane. Jiggz has the better recovery. As long as she doesn't screw up or die from the initial impact, she can always recover.

 

[SothE700k]

But yeah, people who think Meta Knight is Akuma really need to smell the coffee.

You mean lay off the coffee? Because people get so overly worked up about it that I think they're gonna die of a heart attack quite soon...

 

[OrlanduEX]

I do not advocate banning Metaknight.

HOWEVER: His attacks have too much range and priority for their speed.
He is WAY to good at ledgestalling/camping. Even though great players can get around this, it is still a NOT FUN obstacle to navigate.
His recovery is insane and aided by some of the highest priority attacks in the game.
His kill moves kill WAY to early for this style of character (Sonic does not enjoy the KO-ability of MK by a LONG shot)

So while NONE of this makes him ban-worthy, would we really miss him if he stopped appearing in tournaments?

You basically explained why MK is the best character. We all know these things. To say that the game would be more fun without him is to say that Melee would be more fun without Sheik because:

She has easy yet effective combos (chain throw, ftilt to fair etc)
She has good kill moves (fair, uair, dsmash, usmash to a lesser extent)
She is fast
She is good at edgeguarding
Needles
[Insert something else that makes Sheik good here]

Get the picture?

 

[RDK]

I do not advocate banning Metaknight.

HOWEVER: His attacks have too much range and priority for their speed.
He is WAY to good at ledgestalling/camping. Even though great players can get around this, it is still a NOT FUN obstacle to navigate.
His recovery is insane and aided by some of the highest priority attacks in the game.
His kill moves kill WAY to early for this style of character (Sonic does not enjoy the KO-ability of MK by a LONG shot)

So while NONE of this makes him ban-worthy, would we really miss him if he stopped appearing in tournaments?

The point is not whether we'd miss him if he was banned; the point is would it be better for the metagame if he was banned. Which is still a stupid argument to begin with. We didn't ban Fox in Melee just because he had way better attributes than the majority of the cast.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

R.O.B. has a better recovery. It's insane. Jiggz has the better recovery. As long as she doesn't screw up or die from the initial impact, she can always recover.

R.O.B.'s recovery is not better than MK's because R.O.B. can run out of fuel. R.O.B. needs to be careful to preserve his fuel during his recovery, while MK doesn't. Also, Jiggs may have more range and horizontal speed on her recovery than MK, but she lacks many of the powerful recovery moves that MetaKnight has.

Lets not even count the Dimentional Cape. We are still left with FOUR midair jumps (happy now? lets get back to focus again), a normal glide, Drill rush, Tornado, and Shuttle Loop (which also ends in a glide). Jigglypuff simply isn't as dangerous when she is returning to the stage, even if her jumps have more distance on them.

EDIT: Everyone who wants MK in - Once again, I do not believe MK should be banned. As in I agree with you when you say he shouldn't be banned. The list I made are the attributes which make MK great, and while I dislike MK, I think he should remain.

However, If he should be banned, those are the reasons for it. I am NOT a fan of waiting to see whether or not MK is the single most dominant character in the game to decide whether or not he should be banned; I am more interested (personally) in whether or not he is too overpowered, which we agree he ISN'T.

 

[Yuna]

R.O.B.'s recovery is not better than MK's because R.O.B. can run out of fuel. R.O.B. needs to be careful to preserve his fuel during his recovery, while MK doesn't. Also, Jiggs may have more range and horizontal speed on her recovery than MK, but she lacks many of the powerful recovery moves that MetaKnight has.

R.O.B. isn't as floaty as MK, though. And he has to recover quite a lot to run out of fuel. if MK gets knocked around as much as R.O.B. needs to be knocked around to die from overuse of Up B, he'll most likely die as well. If MK gets spiked at a high %, he'll probably die. If R.O.B. doesn't die from the spike itself, he can still survive.

Recovery is very complex.

And the main objective of recovering is, shock, recovering, not hitting your opponent. Who cares if he's got recovery moves that are strong if he can't make it back onstage?

Lets not even count the Dimentional Cape.

We did. It's not very good for recovery.

We are still left with FOUR midair jumps (happy now? lets get back to focus again), a normal glide, Drill rush, Tornado, and Shuttle Loop (which also ends in a glide).

Ouh, he's a good character! Gasp!

Jigglypuff simply isn't as dangerous when she is returning to the stage, even if her jumps have more distance on them.

But as opposed to MK, she can freely through any aerial she wishes to throw out since she can just Rising Pound her way back afterwards. Pound isn't that bad as an attack either.

And still, when recoveriung, the man objective is, you know, recovering.

 

[MarKO X]

You know what, we're all forgetting one thing.. anyone who wants to ban MetaKnight is gay.

Sorry, bad Peter Griffin Reference. Seriously though, people are reviving this? And discussing this? Has the past 88 pages gone unnoticed?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yuna, it's interesting how you choose you arguements to suit your needs. Like picking out perticularly weak phrases to make whoever your arguing against seem less intelligent. (such as with the dimentional cape phrase). Then using a sarcastic responce to my opinion of MK's recovery to dismiss the way that MK's recovery contributes to how good he is as a character. Also, the way you focus on how a recovery is about returning to stage to dismiss that a factor of returning to stage is whether or not you can punish edge-guarders, and by how much, by focusing on the recovering character more than outside factors.

You are great at arguing, and a fun person to post to, but you are ADAMENT and determined to prove people wrong, possibly moreso than you wish to actually further discussion.

 

[OrlanduEX]

You are great at arguing, and a fun person to post to, but you are ADAMENT and determined to prove people wrong, possibly moreso than you wish to actually further discussion.

First off, it's spelled "adamant". Just saying.

Second, proving your opponent wrong and yourself right is the purpose of argument. Yuna always posts with great conviction and with enough knowledge and forethought that he rarely needs be corrected.

If people would just think through what they say to it's logical conclusion and consider the obvious counter arguments to the positions that they postulate, they wouldn't end up saying dumb things and getting owned in internet forums.

That last part wasn't targeted at you. Just saying.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, it's interesting how you choose you arguements to suit your needs. Like picking out perticularly weak phrases to make whoever your arguing against seem less intelligent. (such as with the dimentional cape phrase). Then using a sarcastic responce to my opinion of MK's recovery to dismiss the way that MK's recovery contributes to how good he is as a character.

Funny, I thought I picked apart your entire post. I didn't pick and choose, I replied to it all.

Also, the way you focus on how a recovery is about returning to stage to dismiss that a factor of returning to stage is whether or not you can punish edge-guarders, and by how much, by focusing on the recovering character more than outside factors.

Meta-Knights recovery moves are in no way invincible. He can be hit out of them. They're even that good unless they hit with specific parts of them.

Meanwhile, Jiggz is free to throw out any aerial + Pound and she can recover from pretty much anywhere on the stage. Meta-Knight, meanwhile, enjoys short aerial jumps and an Up B that's quite lacking in vertical range while his Side B leaves him open and takes a lot of time.

You are great at arguing, and a fun person to post to, but you are ADAMENT and determined to prove people wrong, possibly moreso than you wish to actually further discussion.

No, I just point out the flaws I find in people's arguments. That's what people do in debates, you know. I thought you'd know that by now, what with your history of arguing against me and losing horribly time and again because you keep posting horribly misinterpreted "facts" and opinions.

And I can't help but wonder how that entire post in no way refuted anything I said but instead attacked the way I said it in.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

First off, it's spelled "adamant". Just saying.

Second, proving your opponent wrong and yourself right is the purpose of argument. Yuna always posts with great conviction and with enough knowledge and forethought that he rarely needs be corrected.

If people would just think through what they say to it's logical conclusion and consider the obvious counter arguments to the positions that they postulate, they wouldn't end up saying dumb things and getting owned in internet forums.

That last part wasn't targeted at you. Just saying.

I don't know what this is anymore, and I know I may have written to the contrary, but an arguement is a subdivision of a discussion. A discussion is for the purpose of coming to an understanding and a decision, an arguement's primary purpose is to prove the other person wrong. Yuna winning arguements does not always advance discussions.

EDIT: And Yuna, you don't need to say ANYTHING incorrect to be wrong. You are almost never incorrect, but you are wrong in the way you downplay MK's obvious superiorities by saying Jigglypuff has a better recovery and MK can be hit out of his moves. High priority and powerful does not mean invincible, and Jiggs being able to return to stage with more dexterity does not make MK's recovery less than amazing.

 

[Ulevo]

Why would one have top dodge the glide attack? Just shield it and you'll have at least a free mixup most of the time.

Most of the time you won't, because if you don't perfect shield it, the force of the attack will push you back while you shield. This unfortunately makes it very hard to punish Meta Knight after shielding unless one has very long reach. You also have to consider the 4 frames of shield drop that it takes before you can do anything, and another few frames for your action to take effect. Against Meta Knight, that's usually not enough.

The rest I agree with for the majority. It's mostly circumstancial things.

 

[RDK]

Yuna, it's interesting how you choose you arguements to suit your needs. Like picking out perticularly weak phrases to make whoever your arguing against seem less intelligent. (such as with the dimentional cape phrase). Then using a sarcastic responce to my opinion of MK's recovery to dismiss the way that MK's recovery contributes to how good he is as a character. Also, the way you focus on how a recovery is about returning to stage to dismiss that a factor of returning to stage is whether or not you can punish edge-guarders, and by how much, by focusing on the recovering character more than outside factors.

You are great at arguing, and a fun person to post to, but you are ADAMENT and determined to prove people wrong, possibly moreso than you wish to actually further discussion.

Nobody is arguing that MK isn't a good character. We're arguing that he's not that good of a character to warrant a ban. He's just simply not.

Once every tournament listing look like this:

1. MK
2. MK
3. MK
4. MK
5. MK

We might have a problem.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Nobody is arguing that MK isn't a good character. We're arguing that he's not that good of a character to warrant a ban. He's just simply not.

Once every tournament listing look like this:

1. MK
2. MK
3. MK
4. MK
5. MK

We might have a problem.

Overswarm's trial of the gods.

 

[Yuna]

I don't know what this is anymore, and I know I may have written to the contrary, but an arguement is a subdivision of a discussion. A discussion is for the purpose of coming to an understanding and a decision, an arguement's primary purpose is to prove the other person wrong. Yuna winning arguements does not always advance discussions.

This isn't a friendly discussion. This is a debate.

EDIT: And Yuna, you don't need to say ANYTHING incorrect to be wrong. You are almost never incorrect, but you are wrong in the way you downplay MK's obvious superiorities by saying Jigglypuff has a better recovery and MK can be hit out of his moves. High priority and powerful does not mean invincible, and Jiggs being able to return to stage with more dexterity does not make MK's recovery less than amazing.

I'm not downplaying it. If I am, then it's not by much. I'm just injecting facts into the mix to disprove your arguments.

My argument was that Jiggz has a better recovery. Disprove that, instead of saying "Well, MK's recovery isn't half-bad!".

 

[Ulevo]

R.O.B. isn't as floaty as MK, though. And he has to recover quite a lot to run out of fuel. if MK gets knocked around as much as R.O.B. needs to be knocked around to die from overuse of Up B, he'll most likely die as well. If MK gets spiked at a high %, he'll probably die. If R.O.B. doesn't die from the spike itself, he can still survive.

Recovery is very complex.

And the main objective of recovering is, shock, recovering, not hitting your opponent. Who cares if he's got recovery moves that are strong if he can't make it back onstage?

The fact is, he can make it back on stage. He has those options. He has more versatility for recovery than anyone in the game. He can be offensive, defensive, and threatening while recovering, and still do it better than 90% of the other characters. You also have to consider the fact that Jigglypuff, R.O.B., Pit, et cetera... Can all be edge guarded. Some have difficulty doing it, but most can in some form or matter. Meta Knight forces most characters to stay on stage and wait for him to return. The mere fact that his abilities for recovery and his aerial game are so threatening that his opponents can't pursue him alone makes his recovery arguably the best recovery in the game, even without adding statistics of him getting back on stage.

If we were talking about simply recovering the most amount of distance, sure. But how much distance you can cover to get back on stage is not the only factor at hand. He's too much of a threat to edge guard, so he gets back stage for free most of the time anyway.

 

[Yuna]

The fact is, he can make it back on stage. He has those options. He has more versatility for recovery than anyone in the game. He can be offensive, defensive, and threatening while recovering, and still do it better than 90% of the other characters. You also have to consider the fact that Jigglypuff, R.O.B., Pit, et cetera... Can all be edge guarded. Some have difficulty doing it, but most can in some form or matter. Meta Knight forces most characters to stay on stage and wait for him to return. The mere fact that his abilities for recovery and his aerial game are so threatening that his opponents can't pursue him alone makes his recovery the best recovery in the game, even without adding statistics of him getting back on stage.

If we were talking about simply recovering the most amount of distance, sure. But he's too much of a threat to edge guard, so he gets back stage for free most of the time anyway.

Also Meta-Knight can be edgeguarded. You make it sound as if it's nigh-impossible. Jiggz can be hard to edgeguard depending on who you are and even if Jiggz gets hit out of her recovery, unless she dies from the hit, she'll still recover.

The same can be said about R.O.B. to a very great extent (when his fuel runs out). R.O.B. has some fierce aerials to keep himself safe, as well, in case you forgot.

 

[Ulevo]

Also Meta-Knight can be edgeguarded. You make it sound as if it's nigh-impossible. Jiggz can be hard to edgeguard depending on who you are and even if Jiggz gets hit out of her recovery, unless she dies from the hit, she'll still recover.

The same can be said about R.O.B. to a very great extent (when his fuel runs out). R.O.B. has some fierce aerials to keep himself safe, as well, in case you forgot.

Of course I didn't, but they do not present problems to the same magnitude.

The fact is that Jigglypuff isn't threatening while she tries to recover. She does so well because even if she is hit out of her jumps, she can make it back, as well as her other options such as excellent air dodges or Pound. But she is at the disadvantage, despite her amazing recovery, because she is off stage. She's not going to kill you with a Shuttle Loop, Nair or Glide Attack when you try to go after her. You're not forced to stay on stage, even if it is a better option.

R.O.B. is again, in a similar scenario. Excluding his Nair, he really isn't threatening at all while being edge guarding unless you're a fool. Bair will obviously be in the opposite direction you're guarding him in most cases, while Uair and Fair present little problems despite them being good aerials. Dair can Spike you, but you're an idiot if you wind up below R.O.B. when trying to chase him.

 

[popsofctown]

I feel that many don't like Meta simply because they just can't fight Meta. Instead of practicing and trying their hardest to defeat Meta, they go and try to get RID of him.

There are a bunch of people in this group honestly, but there are many people who think he's bad for the game. I'm in favor of banning him/waiting and seeing (haven't decided) and my main has a far worse matchup against G&W than against MK. (Sheik/Zelda)

 

[RDK]

There are a bunch of people in this group honestly, but there are many people who think he's bad for the game. I'm in favor of banning him/waiting and seeing (haven't decided) and my main has a far worse matchup against G&W than against MK. (Sheik/Zelda)

Again--unless tournament results reflect that MK is ban-worthy, it's not going to happen. All of the arguments for banning him stem from not being able to cope with encountering him in the majority of your tournament matches. If it's that big of a problem, main him. Or at least secondary.

 

[Wave⁂]

Again--unless tournament results reflect that MK is ban-worthy, it's not going to happen. All of the arguments for banning him stem from not being able to cope with encountering him in the majority of your tournament matches. If it's that big of a problem, main him. Or at least secondary.

That's one thing I've never understood; why ban him for being game-breaking (not saying he is)? If he takes so little skill to play well, why not just play him yourself? If he does take skill, that shows that he isn't "broken".

 

[Yuna]

That's one thing I've never understood; why ban him for being game-breaking (not saying he is)? If he takes so little skill to play well, why not just play him yourself? If he does take skill, that shows that he isn't "broken".

Because we don't want tournaments to turn into Meta-only not by choice (as in he's just popular) because he's the only viable character.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Just throwing it out there that once again, he's not even close to too good since a character from the previous game ***** even more, and never got banned. Seriously, this discussion is so pathetic it's funny.


MK is beatable, get over your selves and learn to deal with a 6-4 match up. Wow, 6-4, amazing advantage...not really.

 

[DanGR]

Yo yuna, would this justify a ban if tourneys began looking like this? Just replace GaW with MK.

Tournament: Chicago End of Summer
Midwest
Entry: $10
Entrants: 28
Link: http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=2169
1. Needle of Juntah(G&W)
2. Cosmo(G&W)
3. Tink(G&W)
4. Rat (Falco)
5. infernohit(G&W)
5. Ook(Donkey Kong)
7. Ryzen Xia(Falco)
7. Princess Aura (G&W/TL/Zelda)

 

[Yuna]

Yo yuna, would this justify a ban if tourneys began looking like this? Just replace GaW with MK.

As I just said, we should only ban a character if he's winning tournaments by such a margin one is forced to play as him to stand a reasonable chance.

If the metagame literally devolve into that one character, not by player choice but because of programming.

In other words, if all players flock to Meta-Knight, that's not reason enough to ban him. Meta has to be dominating the tourney scene in such a way one has to play as him in order stand a chance.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I can't believe I fell for your "MK has only four mid-air jumps" crap Yuna. I just started playing Brawl tonight and MK is doing five mid-air jumps when I use him.

 

[darkNES386]

Yo yuna, would this justify a ban if tourneys began looking like this? Just replace GaW with MK.

Tournament: Chicago End of Summer
Midwest
Entry: $10
Entrants: 28
Link: http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=2169
1. Needle of Juntah(G&W)
2. Cosmo(G&W)
3. Tink(G&W)
4. Rat (Falco)
5. infernohit(G&W)
5. Ook(Donkey Kong)
7. Ryzen Xia(Falco)
7. Princess Aura (G&W/TL/Zelda)

I wish I could have made it to this event. I"M SICK OF G&W. Forget MK, Game and Watch is ridiculous.

 

[2007]

like everyone and their dog has said before me, MetaKnight is only gonna get banned if he becomes impossible to defeat.

=2007=

 

[Foxy]

 

[infomon]

OMG, FoxySigma, you just won Smashboards.

*dies a little on the inside*

 

[GofG]

infzy, remember you pre-brawl SWF?

 

[link2702]

I can't understand why people are so bent on banning MK....really, although yes, he IS pretty overpowered, I still think myself that SNAKE is worse, and find him waaaaaay more OPed then MK, if MK was to be banned, it'd only be right to ban Snake as Well, I don't main EITHER character, yet I find snake alot more deadly, and easier to KO people with then MK, I mean ya, I can still Kill people pretty easily with MK, but Snake, and his ridiculusly strong tilts, and fact that he can be just as deadly to you from a distance, as he can up close, leads me to beleave that SNAKE is the one who needs to be banned, or hell, just ban both of them, they're both highly OPed characters, and Nintendo definatly F*cked up when making both of them, they needed to test out BOTH characters a lot more carefully. So if you're gonna ban MK, you may as well ban snake too.

 

[MarKO X]

Hey, my Ice Climber thread made this pic! Anti-AweSome!

 

[infomon]

infzy, remember you pre-brawl SWF?

Yes. I lurked here for quite a while, but never contributed or bothered with an account :o

 

[Falconv1.0]

You deserve whores to **** thanks to that pic.


And oh my ****ing God these noobs calling Snake brokenly powerful are so uneducated. Spammers **** him up like there's no tomorrow.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What does this have to do with anything? People are running around whining about Meta hard countering too many characters and some claim there are characters that would become viable were Meta-Knight not around.

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything. So Meta-Knight has a lot of 60-40s against people... I've said that since the very beginning. 60-40 is in no way a hard matchup. It's just a disadvantageous one. And if Meta enjoys mostly 60-40, what reason is there to ban him, really?

You're either schizophrenic or playing Devil's Advocate, yet you have to provide any substantial arguments for why Meta-Knight should be banned.

Or perhaps you're just missing my point...

Let me be absolutely clear.



If community sentiment is correct, and he does in fact hard counter a lot of otherwise viable characters, and he maintains this status in a mature metagame, then he deserves to be banned at that point.

That is all I'm arguing.



What exactly the threshold is, that's very much open to debate, but I'm not even REALLY making the claim that he actually does hard-counter enough characters to be banned at this point, only that he SEEMS to, but that's not even worth debating, it's merely an impression to be replaced by cold hard facts when those are available.

Again, I'm far from alone in this impression. But if the impression and community sentiment is incorrect, then of course he's not ban-worthy, my argument takes that into account.

So, if you are correct and MK does not hard-counter enough chars to be considered, then my impression and the sentiment of the community is incorrect, but not necessarily my argument, because my argument takes that into account.

Just because you at the same time say "It's too early to..." doesn't mean I cannot challenge your other claims.

Primarily because their vulnerability is an enormous indicator of the fact that it is too early to tell.

I am putting this forth as community sentiment, and saying that IF AND ONLY IF community sentiment is correct, and he maintains the status when the metagame is mature.

It does not take 5 years. Especially not with Brawl. One more year, at most, and we'll see whether or not we have to ban him.

Tell me, dear sir, what other fighting game communities needed 5 years before they banned characters? Is the Smash community so incompetent we need several times as much time as other communities?

Because correct or not, he's borderline, as is anything else that isn't clearly "destroys all other characters" needs a truly mature metagame in order to even consider banning a character. Perhaps 5 years is a bit much, we'll see. However, I chose that because the metagame should be mature at that point.

Again, saying "It's too early" doesn't give you a "Get out of Arguments" card. You can't just go "It's too early", yet also add in a ton of other arguments and expect them all to go unchallenged. That's absurd.

Ummm, because the fact that they're so based on impression and supposition is precisely the reason why my central point is so strong.

Really, this isn't the type of argument that you can take in chunks and dissect, it's got a central point, and everything else leads naturally to that conclusion, and nothing makes sense without the context.

Again, I do not favor banning MK now. I furthermore recognize that the conclusions are dependent on the correctness of things which might not be correct, which is why I provided an alternate conclusion, namely that given the time to develop the metagame, he will not be banned.

 

[RDK]

The idea that it will take 5 years for Brawl's metagame to fully develop is laughable. Just throwing that in there. It really is a foolish thing to say.

 

[gallax]

it is waaaayyyyyy to early to ban a character. way to early. at least antother 1-2 years to be absolutely sure about it.

 

[Espy Rose]

The idea that it will take 5 years for Brawl's metagame to fully develop is laughable. Just throwing that in there. It really is a foolish thing to say.

Ditto.

10years.