The Metaknight Forum...

[Denzi]

No one ever asked for your help. All that I did was create the thread and open it up for disucssion. This condescending attitude is completely unnecessary. Thanks for being a useless jack ***.

I was really just joking around, and many others said the same thing, they just weren't as obvious about it.

What I have to offer:

When MK spams tornado, Falco can throw out a laser and often times the MK will be stuck using Drill Rush or another special move, Which makes it easier for Falco to land a low % grab or a high % kill move. I've also heared that during the CG, MK's can rack up damage w/ uair (they still get beaten out by grab priority though).

Happier now?

@ saviors: Cause he's not as good as you think he is.

 

[§witch]

I say Pit is a good MK counter.

lololololol

 

[Fluke]

T-T why is Pit so hated on???????

Two words.

Side B.

 

[Denzi]

Two words.

Side B.

That move makes me wish I didn't have ears. Seriously.

 

[8AngeL8]

Pit makes me wish I didn't have ears. Seriously.

Fix'd. Worst V.A. ever.

 

[saviorslegacy]

but... but...... but........ PIT IS AWSOME!!!!!! Okay, I think he sound of a few moves are dumb.... and he kinda looks gay, but he's still a cool character. I mean.... how can you hate his B moves? Between Wing Dashing, Arrow Looping, Mirrior guarding and Angel Ring mind game (lol... the noise makes them pissy... j/k) he is a good main. Not only that his wall of pain *****. Exspecially when you wing refresh (use up B twice without touching the ground).

 

[z3r0C0oL]

they dont want Meta banned, so they are faking an advantage for Falco.

 

[J4pu]

Spoiler

infinity is just saying this so he can "pretend" his main isn't broken. this won't work man, MK still has an advantage.

they dont want Meta banned, so they are faking an advantage for Falco.

hmmm, for some reason your post sounds so familiar. I wonder why.

 

[TheNix]

I've always thought that this matchup was even. It doesn't exactly shock me that some MK players think it's a Falco advantage (or vice-versa).

 

[CY]

hmmm, for some reason your post sounds so familiar. I wonder why.

what are you trying to say? that i have two accounts or something? rofl

 

[Infinitysmash]

You walk up to them. You fight them when their invincibility runs out and they have to do something, which therefore involves leaving the edge and giving up their invincibility frames. It's not unbeatable. It's not like they're permanently invincible. If you watch, SK gets a lot of hits in on Plank, though not enough to win.

You read that part wrong. I was talking about how Metaknight can't realistically do anything from the ledge, not how you can't approach him there.

It does nothing productive for you to go to the left platform on JJapes when you're playing as Falco and they're on the middle bottom - you can't hit them. It does nothing productive to go to the fin in Corneria if they're on the main part of the stage, you can't hit them. It does nothing productive to go to the opposite end of FD and laserspam if they're crouching as Kirby, you can't hit them. Planking is 'unproductive' in exactly the same way that those are unproductive. In any of those cases, if the opponent is stubborn and refuses to fight in a place where he's disadvantaged, the timer will run out, but that's not the usual case, since at any given point there's at least one person who's behind and thus has to go to a disadvantaged position to try to close it.

On Japes - Yes it does, it repositions you and when they try to come at you you're able to Phantasm past them and put them on the left side which is right where you want them. Just jumping over there may not do anything directly productive, but it does set you up for better options. Hanging on the ledge actually limits Metaknight's options rather than adding to them.

On Corneria - See the above. It's not about doing something directly productive as it is about changing the scenario and the set of options you have. Besides, they can't hit you either

vs Kirby - He's gotta get up and move toward you eventually. This is actually a good example of stage control on Falco's part. Even if they're ahead and all they're doing is crouching under your lasers and waiting for the timer then it sucks to be them since this is just yet another example of stalling.

The point isn't to run out the timer, the point is to force an approach. Same as any other positioning advantage.

I agree. However, almost every time I hear someone argue about camping on the ledge they complain about how Metaknight can stay there and run the timer out, which is what I was basing my argument off of. This was a miscommunication since you're arguing something largely different from what I am

And Planking does not have the intent of avoiding conflict. In case you notice, when SK92 came close to Plank, Plank didn't drop down off the edge and fly underneath the stage to the next edge to run out the timer - that would indeed be stalling, under current rules. He HIT THE OPPONENT and then went back to the same position he was before (the nearest edge), since it was a good position for him to be in. In that same match which gave Planking its name, the timer never ran out.

Planking is just a positional advantage. It's the only place on the stage where Falco's lasers can't hit; ergo, it's the only way MK can force Falco to get near him rather than the other way around. That's its main use. Not running out the timer. Running out the timer is just what happens when a character that isn't used to needing to approach (Falco, because of his lasers) doesn't realize that he's in a position where HE has to approach, and so sits there laserspamming at nothing, waiting for MK to come to him instead of going to MK.

First, as a quick aside, good luck flying under the stage they were on in that video (Yoshi's Island). You can very easily fly under the level, but there's a weird glitch where you appear above the level instead of under it. We're still testing to see what causes this glitch

In regards to using the ledge: you say that's the only place where Falco can't hit Metaknight, but from personal experience I very strongly prefer to be on a platform that on the ledge. It does effectively the same thing and allows for better/more options.

Also, in this particular example the Metaknight did hit the Falco player frequently when Falco came near. This is a bad move on SK92's part, since rather than waiting patiently he walked over to it rather than waiting for time to go by, then if Plank was still on the edge after some time point out that he's the one who initiated the stall and done nothing with it. I see what you're saying and I understand your point, but the fact is that Plaink baited SK92 and he bit the bait and it's been blown completely out of proportion since.

What drugs are you on? Yoshi does not have a solid match up on MK. The Yoshi boards are on all kinds of crazy drugs to believe he has a solid match up. The Jigglypuff boards also have a thread on how to counter MK. Does that mean she counters MK? No. She just has strategies that work well on MK. Yoshi has strategies that work against MK. MK has tons more on Yoshi and Jigglypuff.

The following is a set of the best Yoshi vs one of the best Metaknights (possibly our best excluding Mew2King):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t11GYdJ0Gd0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrcMLqFwI6M

what are you trying to prove? so yes, i have not made it to the finals of a top tourney or anything, but so what? does that mean i do not know about MK's matchups? because that would be wrong, i know his matchups, and the truth is that HE HAS NO BAD MATCHUPS. seriously. some 50-50s and some have argued that snake is 55:45 against MK, but those are all NEUTRALS. therefore, he has no bad matchups.

and the 2nd point about planking....just won't work. trust me, ive been to tournies and know this for sure.

I'm proving that you're just jumping on the bandwagon and saying what everyone else says. You're not being open minded to a new perspective and you're just saying that he has no bad matchups when I can guarantee you don't have anywhere near the experience with the character that's needed in order to make that judgment. All you're doing is repeating the same thing everyone else has. I'm not going to sit here and tell you every number about your character and be perfectly accurate about their matchups, why should you be able to do that to mine?

 

[Tommy_G]

like half of your posts seem to imply that I am a scrub, in a very subtle manner.
it depresses me.

I'm not trying to call you a scrub. Maybe you just don't have the opportunity to practice against a good meta knight. It would make you inexperienced in the match up but it still wouldn't make you bad.

I still stand by what I said. 60/40 MK if both players are equally inexperienced and 55/45 for Falco if they know the match up(60/40 overall and 50/50 when planking).

MK is not unbeatable. He could have bad match ups. Thinking that he doesn't and never will automatically puts you behind everyone else. That mentality will really f*** up your game play.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I'm proving that you're just jumping on the bandwagon and saying what everyone else says. You're not being open minded to a new perspective and you're just saying that he has no bad matchups when I can guarantee you don't have anywhere near the experience with the character that's needed in order to make that judgment. All you're doing is repeating the same thing everyone else has. I'm not going to sit here and tell you every number about your character and be perfectly accurate about their matchups, why should you be able to do that to mine?

you know i would just shut the hell up and believe you if you could prove it, right? the point is, you CAN'T. prove to me that MK is at least at a 40:60 disadvantage against a character. sure, i may not be a MK expert, but i play my falco, my marth, my D3, and even my snake against him, and my conclusion is that falco is 50:50 at best, marth is about 40:60 in MK's advantage(need more research on this one), D3 is about 40:60 in MK's advantage, and snake is at best 55:45 in snake's advantage. 55:45 is still neutral and NOT a "counter". and unless you could find proof to make me believe otherwise, yes, i will keep on believing "what everyone else is believing", though im not bandwagon-ing in any way.

@Tommy G
yes, of course he COULD. but the fact is, he DOESN'T have any "bad" matchups atm. however, it is true that you should try new things with characters such as snake, diddy, etc. and try to develop anti-meta strats and that maybe one day, he WILL have a bad matchup.

 

[Sethlon]

vs Kirby - ...if they're ahead and all they're doing is crouching under your lasers and waiting for the timer then it sucks to be them since this is just yet another example of stalling.

Also, in this particular example the Metaknight did hit the Falco player frequently when Falco came near. This is a bad move on SK92's part, since rather than waiting patiently he walked over to it rather than waiting for time to go by, then if Plank was still on the edge after some time point out that he's the one who initiated the stall and done nothing with it. I see what you're saying and I understand your point, but the fact is that Plaink baited SK92 and he bit the bait and it's been blown completely out of proportion since.

You have a confused definition of what stalling is.

Stalls that are banned are stalls that are inescapable or nearly impossible to stop. Some examples would be d3 never stopping his wall infinite to kill, jab lock infiniting and never stopping, jigglypuff overBing over and over underneath the stage, etc.

The hypothetical kirby situation is not stalling for either character. They can approach, they just choose not to. If neither ever makes a move, time runs out and least % wins.

This is also why SK92 didn't just wait for plank for come up from the ledge. Every single time plank starts planking, he is purposefully doing so when he has less % and/or more stocks than his opponent. Sk HAS to press the attack, because if he doesn't plank will gladly sit there and let the clock run down and take his free win. Because it is possible for a character to attack metaknight while he is planking, it is not a banned stall, so plank knows that whenever he gets his opponent at a higher percent he can just run to a ledge and force them into a bad position.

 

[XxBlackxX]

You have a confused definition of what stalling is.

Stalls that are banned are stalls that are inescapable or nearly impossible to stop. Some examples would be d3 never stopping his wall infinite to kill, jab lock infiniting and never stopping, jigglypuff overBing over and over underneath the stage, etc.

The hypothetical kirby situation is not stalling for either character. They can approach, they just choose not to. If neither ever makes a move, time runs out and least % wins.

This is also why SK92 didn't just wait for plank for come up from the ledge. Every single time plank starts planking, he is purposefully doing so when he has less % and/or more stocks than his opponent. Sk HAS to press the attack, because if he doesn't plank will gladly sit there and let the clock run down and take his free win. Because it is possible for a character to attack metaknight while he is planking, it is not a banned stall, so plank knows that whenever he gets his opponent at a higher percent he can just run to a ledge and force them into a bad position.

yea. man you should post on these falco boards more often xD. some of us could sure use your help.

EDIT: hey Tommy G, you stated that falco and MK go 50:50 even when MK is planking. explain please.

 

[Tommy_G]

yea. man you should post on these falco boards more often xD. some of us could sure use your help.

EDIT: hey Tommy G, you stated that falco and MK go 50:50 even when MK is planking. explain please.

Falco actually has a lot of options against this kind of thing. It's just that if you mess up anything, you're dead. Good thing it isn't hard technical stuff.

If MK camps the ledge with N-air, you can run up, let it hit the shield and then quickly half circle ledge grab. This forces him back onto the stage. If he doesn't go onto the stage, then its a happy ledge-invulnerability spike time for Falco.
Kinda the same thing with shuttle loop, but it has a bit more range. Your prediction skills have to be good. Throw in some fake approaches.
If he just sits there on the ledge while you're shielding, a nice up smash will do the job. It hits people on ledges when invulnerability runs out.
If MK drops below the ledge, learn to time the ledge invulnerability when he's forced to come back up. I like drop off up airs. They have really good range. Barely any lag on it allows you to do a rising up air after the drop off up air and land back on the stage.

If you're too aggressive, you will get owned. It's the main bad habit from Melee most Falco mains have to overcome.

 

[Hype]

I completely Agree with Sethlon, Planking =/= Stalling.

 

[§witch]

I completely Agree with Sethlon, Planking =/= Stalling.

Or by any means, not a bannable stall.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

they dont want Meta banned, so they are faking an advantage for Falco.

its kinda been proven that he isn't broke due to diddy and snake.

Diddy
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5_GGqRvPSkY

you could argue that m2k won a later set, but of the 3 sets they played, nl won 2. the only set he lost was after they agreed to split the pot, and the actual set was just for funzies

Snake
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203535

unfortunately i do not have a vid of meeps snake beating dsf's mk. it did happen though, and dsf was forced to cp dedede.

some people could also argue gdubs now because he was close to even, and he now can prolong his stocks by 20-30% against poeple like mk, who have bad KO moves

hell, i'm under the personal belief that dk is at least neutral

maybe people actually learned to play against meta instead of just whining non stop, and then developed bad matchups for him. kinda like what all the smart people said was going to happen a few months ago. I guess you blocked that part out because it didn't agree with your scrub mentality.

also, notice how most of the good people no longer think he should be banned? theres a reason for that...

 

[J4pu]

I'm not gunna say your wrong bigfoot, but giving a specific battle where a good MK loses to a good other character does not provide proof that the character goes even or counters meta knight. Character matchups have to be based on statistical data that implies a character is at a disadvantage, even, or advantage.

For instance falco's CG > Dair sets up over 55% if the MK is Dair'ed into the ground and their tech choice is predicted well, add that in to MK's already light weight and you have a very large advantage there
MK is quite possibly the best character at gimping and d*mn near impossible to gimp himself which means Falco loses his strong edgeguard game and also has even more problems with his already terrible recovery options.
Falco has lasers
MK as a long range, nearly lagless, disjointed hitbox for the majority of his attacks

these are the kinds of things you need to look at when trying to make matchup decisions, not NL beat MK therefore Diddy at least goes even.

 

[Vlade]

And rather than just looking at one match, you need to look at the whole picture.

After versing many MK's I believe that the match-up is quite even. Falco has his chaingrab which brings MK down to his knees. He can also use his lasers to halt the infamous tornado. If you know the match-up well, you shouldn't have trouble if you are of equal skill as your opponent.

Although what MK has is his gimping ability, especially against falco's less-than-mediocre recovery.

 

[XxBlackxX]

And rather than just looking at one match, you need to look at the whole picture.

After versing many MK's I believe that the match-up is quite even. Falco has his chaingrab which brings MK down to his knees. He can also use his lasers to halt the infamous tornado. If you know the match-up well, you shouldn't have trouble if you are of equal skill as your opponent.

Although what MK has is his gimping ability, especially against falco's less-than-mediocre recovery.

agreed. the matchup is 50:50. neither character has a clear advantage and i think the better player (or one that knows this matchup better) will win.

 

[Maniclysane]

agreed. the matchup is 50:50. neither character has a clear advantage and i think the better player (or one that knows this matchup better) will win.

Planking.
10planks

 

[Denzi]

I thought it was only 45:55 in MK's favor when planking.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I thought it was only 45:55 in MK's favor when planking.

yea i think so too. when posting earlier i disregarded planking.

 

[J4pu]

Tommy's view of MK's planking being only 50:50 is ridiculous
think about it, his strategy was:
read them perfectly>grab the edge > force them to land on the stage > fight them normally

think about what happens if you fail at reading them perfectly when you jump of to grab the edge --> ~50% chancec of being gimped if you are on FD or pkmn stadium or ~25% chance being gimped if you are on a stage with clean edges.

even if you are able to read them perfectly 75% of the time that means .75x.25 ~19% chance of being gimped on a stage with nice edges, whereas the reward is that they are no longer planking but are rather on the stage and you are hanging on the edge.

now let's look at this scenario, MK has 2 options, attempt to keep falco from getting back onto the stage from the edge (which is a position falcos don't enjoy being in because if we get knocked back out after ledge-hopping (one of our most reliable ways to get back on the stage) we give them yet another chance to gimp us.
The other option MK now has is to run to the opposite side of the stage and return to planking where the scenario resets and we have to take the chance of getting gimped again.

Yes my #% are extremely rough estimates but I believe them to be somewhat accurate.

Also if you plan on jumping down with a Dair or Bair for the (stage) spike and you miss you get gimped (~90% rate) whereas if you do get the hit, chances are MK can make it back anyway (if he was under 65 damage) due to his insane recovery.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Tommy's view of MK's planking being only 50:50 is ridiculous
think about it, his strategy was:
read them perfectly>grab the edge > force them to land on the stage > fight them normally

think about what happens if you fail at reading them perfectly when you jump of to grab the edge --> ~50% chancec of being gimped if you are on FD or pkmn stadium or ~25% chance being gimped if you are on a stage with clean edges.

even if you are able to read them perfectly 75% of the time that means .75x.25 ~19% chance of being gimped on a stage with nice edges, whereas the reward is that they are no longer planking but are rather on the stage and you are hanging on the edge.

now let's look at this scenario, MK has 2 options, attempt to keep falco from getting back onto the stage from the edge (which is a position falcos don't enjoy being in because if we get knocked back out after ledge-hopping (one of our most reliable ways to get back on the stage) we give them yet another chance to gimp us.
The other option MK now has is to run to the opposite side of the stage and return to planking where the scenario resets and we have to take the chance of getting gimped again.

Yes my #% are extremely rough estimates but I believe them to be somewhat accurate.

Also if you plan on jumping down with a Dair or Bair for the (stage) spike and you miss you get gimped (~90% rate) whereas if you do get the hit, chances are MK can make it back anyway (if he was under 65 damage) due to his insane recovery.

yea. it's 50:50 without planking, definitely not 50:50 if the opponent planks. i think the point you made were excellent. what do you think would the matchup percents be then, if planking was involved?

 

[kook_U]

i don't get why some of u guys are for planking when it should be banned, or atleast take the timer away, its totally cheap to run and chill on the ledge, it doesn't even show skill, it just makes the person who does it look like a wussy.......
i censored myself
it also slows down the fight

 

[J4pu]

Well I have problems putting numbers on matchups because I think they should be extremely accurate if you are going to give matchup ratio, but as a rough estimate I'd say the advantage goes to MK 60:40. This ratio is assuming that as soon as MK gets a lead he runs to the edge and planks.
I would say 65:35 due to planking but in order to plank you have to have a %lead. (and even though it is extremely likely that in a match between 2 players of equal skill the MK will at some point during the match have the advantage it is still a circumstance that needs to be met that limits the strategy of planking).

after reading through this I actually want to make the the ratio even stronger in MK's favor under these conditions.

however if the MK does not plank I'd estimate 50:50 / 45:55 MK's favor

 

[Mikey7]

Planking isn't hard to get by, just rememeber if they are at even 1% higher than you, you can't get planked.

I've played one planker though so yeah lol. What I did was he was sitting on the edge, and every time he tried to get up and attack quick, I'd just block it and make my shield get low. Then I knew a shuttle loop was coming, so I just powershielded the loop and shieldgrabbed the glide attack (his spacing will be off if you're near the edge). When he didn't attack, its really easy to do Tommys method - just use lasers to get a percentage lead because chances are the MK will run to the other side and plank some more.

OR the better solution: don't give up a lead by playing as campy as possible.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Planking isn't hard to get by, just rememeber if they are at even 1% higher than you, you can't get planked.

I've played one planker though so yeah lol. What I did was he was sitting on the edge, and every time he tried to get up and attack quick, I'd just block it and make my shield get low. Then I knew a shuttle loop was coming, so I just powershielded the loop and shieldgrabbed the glide attack (his spacing will be off if you're near the edge). When he didn't attack, its really easy to do Tommys method - just use lasers to get a percentage lead because chances are the MK will run to the other side and plank some more.

OR the better solution: don't give up a lead by playing as campy as possible.

lolwut? if you have a percentage lead, unless the MK is an idiot, trust me, he will not go and plank some more >_>
and also, camping against MK isn't as easy as you think, he is very good is rushdown.
third, most MKs will NEVER try to ledge attack you when planking.

 

[§witch]

Planking can't really be brought into a match-up discussion. Falco can deal with planking easily enough, just don't do anything stupid.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Planking can't really be brought into a match-up discussion. Falco can deal with planking easily enough, just don't do anything stupid.

cmon, don't just say, oh falco can deal with planking, because trust me, he can't very easily.
if you really think so, give some examples/tips on how to beat planking. Tommy and Mikey did, though i disagree with most of their points.

 

[J4pu]

mikey your response doesn't address the true strategy of planking, except for the percent lead part (and as I stated right before you posted, if two players of equal caliber are playing, it is very likely the MK will have a % advantage at some point)

Planking is done by ledge dropping waiting til you fall far enough, then DJ at the point where your head will not rise above the stage but your "magnet hands" will allow you to regrab the edge and get invincibility frames. They also throw in Uairs from under the stage to deplete shields/shield poke if it can reach/you are standing there. I'm sure they also throw in shuttle loops when they think it will connect so you being able to predict it is very difficult (I was very generous in my post with a 75% success prediction rate and that would still mean a gimp death 1/5 times from the numbers I estimated). Where you came up with the idea that they are going to use the get-up attack is beyond me.

so there it is, why you are wrong.

EDIT- @switch by don't do anything stupid I'm assuming you mean stand on the other side of the stage and wait/spam lasers, and when MK has a % lead this means you lose. Give an example of how we can beat it without doing anything stupid please, because I already addressed TommyG's solution and it seems like we don't have any safe counters for planking.

 

[§witch]

cmon, don't just say, oh falco can deal with planking, because trust me, he can't very easily.
if you really think so, give some examples/tips on how to beat planking. Tommy and Mikey did, though i disagree with most of their points.

Alright, think of it this way: You stand by the edge, the meta is planking.

If A. they just keep dropping and regrabbing, hug. They are then either going back to the stage or getting dunked, either way that's not hard to deal with.
B. They use nair, sheild it.
C. Shuttle loop, run off the stage and bair/uair. If you hit with a weak uair, go for a rising dair.

Falco is in a good plae to deal with this.

 

[J4pu]

Alright, think of it this way: You stand by the edge, the meta is planking.

If A. they just keep dropping and regrabbing, hug. They are then either going back to the stage or getting dunked, either way that's not hard to deal with.

now let's look at this scenario, MK has 2 options, attempt to keep falco from getting back onto the stage from the edge (which is a position falcos don't enjoy being in because if we get knocked back out after ledge-hopping (one of our most reliable ways to get back on the stage) we give them yet another chance to gimp us.
The other option MK now has is to run to the opposite side of the stage and return to planking where the scenario resets and we have to take the chance of getting gimped again.

B. They use nair, sheild it.
so nothing happens then? also why would MK use Nair from above the edge of the stage? that defeats the purpose of planking which is to stay in a safe spot where you cannot take damage without forcing the other character to risk getting gimp killed, jumping above the edge to Nair does not agree with planking.
C. Shuttle loop, run off the stage and bair/uair. If you hit with a weak uair, go for a rising dair.

I'm sure they also throw in shuttle loops when they think it will connect so you being able to predict it is very difficult (I was very generous in my post with a 75% success prediction rate and that would still mean a gimp death 1/5 times from the numbers I estimated).

Also if you plan on jumping down with a Dair or Bair for the (stage) spike and you miss you get gimped (~90% rate) whereas if you do get the hit, chances are MK can make it back anyway (if he was under 65 damage) due to his insane recovery.

Falco is in a good plae to deal with this.
no, no he isn't

Isn't it funny how you brought up reasons that I had already explained were assumed under false pretenses and were therefore not viable?
Responses in red/quoted from previous posts.

 

[Mikey7]

mikey your response doesn't address the true strategy of planking, except for the percent lead part (and as I stated right before you posted, if two players of equal caliber are playing, it is very likely the MK will have a % advantage at some point)

Planking is done by ledge dropping waiting til you fall far enough, then DJ at the point where your head will not rise above the stage but your "magnet hands" will allow you to regrab the edge and get invincibility frames. They also throw in Uairs from under the stage to deplete shields/shield poke if it can reach/you are standing there. I'm sure they also throw in shuttle loops when they think it will connect so you being able to predict it is very difficult (I was very generous in my post with a 75% success prediction rate and that would still mean a gimp death 1/5 times from the numbers I estimated). Where you came up with the idea that they are going to use the get-up attack is beyond me.

so there it is, why you are wrong.

EDIT- @switch by don't do anything stupid I'm assuming you mean stand on the other side of the stage and wait/spam lasers, and when MK has a % lead this means you lose. Give an example of how we can beat it without doing anything stupid please, because I already addressed TommyG's solution and it seems like we don't have any safe counters for planking.

If its a double jump then Tommy's method would work no problem, its easy to predict when the MK will fall. And yes I meant with up air when I said attack (seriously who would fair or something lol).

Um and to the person who put red in my post, what I meant was use lasers while META has the percent lead to gain back your own percent lead and then he can't plank you.

 

[§witch]

All of that is your opinion.

now let's look at this scenario, MK has 2 options, attempt to keep falco from getting back onto the stage from the edge (which is a position falcos don't enjoy being in because if we get knocked back out after ledge-hopping (one of our most reliable ways to get back on the stage) we give them yet another chance to gimp us.
The other option MK now has is to run to the opposite side of the stage and return to planking where the scenario resets and we have to take the chance of getting gimped again.

Not true at all, let's do a ****ty diagram of a stage:

F
--------------------------------------
MK
So, we're right at the edge. Mk knows that the next time he drops we have a few things we can do, so, he'll do SL or an aerial. If he is to drop say*** hello to bair/dair/uair. Or we just grab the edge and get a free dunk anyways.

I'm sure they also throw in shuttle loops when they think it will connect so you being able to predict it is very difficult (I was very generous in my post with a 75% success prediction rate and that would still mean a gimp death 1/5 times from the numbers I estimated).

Nice stats, too bad you just pulled them out of your ***.

I really don't care if they think it will connect, we know they have limited options. We can sheild the first hit of Sl and bair OoS when it comes back around, it's not hard to see what they are going to do, it all depends on how they drop and how they jump back up.

 

[J4pu]

If its a double jump then Tommy's method would work no problem, its easy to predict when the MK will fall. And yes I meant with up air when I said attack (seriously who would fair or something lol).
no, DJ is not safe, if MK hits you with his long disjointed hitbox (4 of his 5 aerials each of which can outrange dair and bair) right after you DJ it becomes like a 99.999% chance that you are going to get gimped

Um and to the person who put red in my post, what I meant was use lasers while META has the percent lead to gain back your own percent lead and then he can't plank you.
so for this to work MK has to have a % lead of less than 6% and also be ********? Grounded lasers= MK just jumps and flies over until he gets to the edge then airdodges through them and grabs the edge. SHDL=MK runs until you fire the lower laser, then shields, then runs, then shields until he gets to the edge. if you manage to hit him with 2 lasers before he reaches the edge that's only like a 4% difference

Responses in red
try thinking before you make responses people, the answers are so blatant that I'm sure you can think of them yourself.
Lying to yourself that your character has an advantage where he doesn't is never going to help you, it will merely make you blind to your disadvantages and you are going to pay for that when you play somebody who knows how to exploit those advantages. Only by accepting your weaknesses can you find strategies that minimize your disadvantage.

EDIT-

Not true at all, let's do a ****ty diagram of a stage:

F
--------------------------------------
MK
So, we're right at the edge. Mk knows that the next time he drops we have a few things we can do, so, he'll do SL or an aerial. If he is to drop so hello to bair/dair/uair. Or we just grab the edge and get a free dunk anyways.
You should work on your grammer because I can't tell what you are saying really, but from what it sounds like, you are assuming MK will be predictable and you will be able to read his actions every time (if this is the case how come you are not known as the best smasher in the world?) If you drop down and try to aerial when he decides to SL you trade hits and you don't fall into a gimpable position, or you trade hits and you get hit off-stage into a spot where you can be gimped or you trade hits and SL stage-spikes you to your death. Hmm considering if you Dair/Bair and trade hits MK chance of dying is only present if he is above around 65% I say this gives MK an advantage. what about when MK edge-drops straight into a Uair and you attempt to edge-hog? well nothing too bad you just take damage and MK has time to regrab the edge
Now then, we know the two scenarios occuring if you fail, let's look at the 2 scenarios that occur if you successfully predict his options.
if he is a SL happy MK (which good players are not so I don't know why this even comes up in a match-up discussion) or you just manage to predict a SL and Shield it then perfect shield the glide attack you get a grab out of the situation and MK gets hit slightly off-stage, ok so that's like 8% in your favor.
the other prediction I believe you were talking about was if you manage to edge-hog at a safe time, well then MK is forced to go on the stage where he can

now let's look at this scenario, MK has 2 options, attempt to keep falco from getting back onto the stage from the edge (which is a position falcos don't enjoy being in because if we get knocked back out after ledge-hopping (one of our most reliable ways to get back on the stage) we give them yet another chance to gimp us.
The other option MK now has is to run to the opposite side of the stage and return to planking where the scenario resets and we have to take the chance of getting gimped again.

wait, wtf is that the part that you just responded to? lmao way to counter my argument by leading back into where my argument goes
anyways the successes led to either ~8% more on MK and MK offstage (which is basically in planking position again) or the MK resetting the situation on the opposite edge or the MK attempting to stop Falco from returning from the edge to the stage(=adv for MK)
The scenarios where you fail to predict lead to: 1/3 chance of each of the following if your choice was to drop into an aerial: trade hits and nobody becomes at more of a disadvantage, trade hits and you get put in a position where you could be gimped, trade hits and you get stage spiked to your death (that's death 1/3 of the time even ignoring the option where you might get gimped)
or if you failed when you tried to edge-hog you take a few damage and the situation resets

i did not see MK dying in any of those scenarios, yet there were a few chances for you to die, clearly Adv=MK
Nice stats, too bad you just pulled them out of your ***.

I really don't care if they think it will connect, we know they have limited options. We can sheild the first hit of Sl and bair OoS when it comes back around, it's not hard to see what they are going to do, it all depends on how they drop and how they jump back up.
yea, but imagining that you would be successful in predicting 75% of your opponent's actions was a very generous estimate, think about the actual percent of times you are actually able to predict your opponent in a match (hint: it's much lower)
yea you're right silly me to think they have any options other than dropping and regrabbing the edge or dropping then SL'ing /sarcasm
Uair has great range, is quick, and disjointed; in most situations where you would probably predict SL Uair is a very viable option and is less punishable (when planking)

responses in red, yes my percents are very rough estimates as I already stated but if you want a more factual idea think about this, MK has a MUCH larger chance of gimping you when you are both off-stage and near the bottom of the stage than you do of gimping him.

 

[§witch]

Your percentages are not anything to be taken seriously at all, I can say that I will have a 1836729265283572629% success rate; doesn't mean it's true.

You should work on your grammer because I can't tell what you are saying really, but from what it sounds like, you are assuming MK will be predictable and you will be able to read his actions every time (if this is the case how come you are not known as the best smasher in the world?)

Nice try, this is a really pathetic attempt to make me seem as if I don't know what I'm talking about.

If you drop down and try to aerial when he decides to SL you trade hits and you don't fall into a gimpable position, or you trade hits and you get hit off-stage into a spot where you can be gimped or you trade hits and SL stage-spikes you to your death. Hmm considering if you Dair/Bair and trade hits MK chance of dying is only present if he is above around 65% I say this gives MK an advantage.

How about you DI the bair away from the stage, you get hit by the weaker part of SL and MK gets stage spiked. Who cares if he doesn't die? He's not on the edge.

if he is a SL happy MK (which good players are not so I don't know why this even comes up in a match-up discussion)

Why is planking brought into a match-up discussion? Because it's done? Only by Plank really, no one else has managed to lose all morals and play that gay lol.

or you just manage to predict a SL and Shield it then perfect shield the glide attack you get a grab out of the situation and MK gets hit slightly off-stage, ok so that's like 8% in your favor.
the other prediction I believe you were talking about was if you manage to edge-hog at a safe time, well then MK is forced to go on the stage where he can

Stop with the stupid ****ing stats, none of them are real, based off fact or reliable. Yes, MK is forced onto the stage, which is what we want.