The Metaknight Forum...

[Infinitysmash]

...is currently discussing the Falco matchup. Feel free to head over there and call me ******** for saying that Falco has an inherent advantage in the matchup

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208387

 

[saviorslegacy]

...is currently discussing the Falco matchup. Feel free to head over there and call me ******** for saying that Falco has an inherent advantage in the matchup

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=208387

An advantage WTF! 0_0

I have to see this.

 

[AH-86]

^ same as him WTF!

 

[bob-e]

The Metaknight boards do know that they can just grab the edge and become **** near invincible against Falco, right?

 

[8AngeL8]

He's one of the best MK counters, maybe, but advantaged?!?!

 

[saviorslegacy]

He's one of the best MK counters, maybe, but advantaged?!?!

I say Pit is a good MK counter.

 

[Carbonated]

I know that Falco is a better choice against MK, but an advantage? O_O

 

[CY]

infinity is just saying this so he can "pretend" his main isn't broken. this won't work man, MK still has an advantage.

 

[J4pu]

i think the main reason was to inspire us to go over and represent falco

like how that kirby main came and asked how hard kirby ***** falco, just so we would go take part.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Wtf Advantage Over MetagameKnight? THIS IS BLASPHEMY!

 

[Darxmarth23]

What the eaf david blane?!

no, never.

 

[Denzi]

Why would we help you?

 

[Emperor Time]

A Falco discussion for MK. I find that unnecessary. >_>

 

[XxBlackxX]

I know that Falco is a better choice against MK, but an advantage? O_O

ledgecamping >___________>

he's not one of the best choices atm, though without ledgecamping he would do pretty good actually.

@saviors

no, pit is obviously not a MK counter. first of all, he has no real counters, just even matchups. and 2nd, pit doesn't do so well against MK, in fact, to me Pit is kinda like MK except they took out what actually made him so good and added the arrorws.

 

[Tommy_G]

When the Falco and MK are equally inexperienced, MK has the advantage 60-40. When they are both experienced then Falco has the advantage 55-45 overall (50-50 when planking, 60-40 for Falco when fighting)

Upsmash kills early. Phantasm and mainly lasers force MK to approach in an unorthodox way putting him in bad positions.

 

[J4pu]

When the Falco and MK are equally inexperienced, MK has the advantage 60-40. When they are both experienced then Falco has the advantage 55-45 overall (50-50 when planking, 60-40 for Falco when fighting)

Upsmash kills early. Phantasm and mainly lasers force MK to approach in an unorthodox way putting him in bad positions.

like half of your posts seem to imply that I am a scrub, in a very subtle manner.
it depresses me.

 

[XxBlackxX]

like half of your posts seem to imply that I am a scrub, in a very subtle manner.
it depresses me.

where the hell did you come with that?

 

[saviorslegacy]

ledgecamping >___________>

he's not one of the best choices atm, though without ledgecamping he would do pretty good actually.

@saviors

no, pit is obviously not a MK counter. first of all, he has no real counters, just even matchups. and 2nd, pit doesn't do so well against MK, in fact, to me Pit is kinda like MK except they took out what actually made him so good and added the arrorws.

Well, I always use my Pit vs a MK. -_- I find the matches pretty even. Of course, never fought a bad edge camper before. -_-

 

[J4pu]

When the Falco and MK are equally inexperienced, MK has the advantage 60-40. When they are both experienced then Falco has the advantage 55-45 overall (50-50 when planking, 60-40 for Falco when fighting)

Upsmash kills early. Phantasm and mainly lasers force MK to approach in an unorthodox way putting him in bad positions.

see the bolded sections, I said it was subtle.
Oh, and I didn't mean he was purposely targeting me specifically, just that his posts say only lesser experienced players think some ways about things. These ways happen to be the way I think about them.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Lawl this is so ****ing stupid. MK mains new tactic is to pretend that MK doesn't do that well. Im neither for or against the ban but seriously, utter bull**** guys.

 

[cmpr94x]

The Metaknight boards do know that they can just grab the edge and become **** near invincible against Falco, right?

By this do you mean stalling?

 

[Infinitysmash]

Why would we help you?

No one ever asked for your help. All that I did was create the thread and open it up for disucssion. This condescending attitude is completely unnecessary. Thanks for being a useless jack ***.

no, pit is obviously not a MK counter. first of all, he has no real counters, just even matchups.

How much research have you done on this subject? How many times have you played with Metaknight at the top end of a tournament? How well do you really know the character, and are you a knowledgable authority on his match up stats?

Lawl this is so ****ing stupid. MK mains new tactic is to pretend that MK doesn't do that well. Im neither for or against the ban but seriously, utter bull**** guys.

I'm not pretending. I'm giving real data from actual experience against one of your best and after watching one of your best play against one of our best. I'm also not at all saying he doesn't do well as he is clearly the best character according to actual data and I will never argue that point, but I do believe from experience that he is at an inherent disadvantage against Falco.


In regards to people camping on the ledge a.k.a "Planking:" call the TO over and explain to them that the Metaknight player is stalling. They're deliberately slowing the pace of the game in order to attempt to exploit a loophole in the rules, which is stalling and stalling is banned according to the SBR recommended rule list. The TO can watch and determine whether or not the Metaknight player is stalling and can give them a match loss for it. Please, instead of sitting by and idly complaining about this, do something about it!

 

[King Funk]

The Meta Knights concede a match-up to the Falcos... This is so epic... Probably too epic to be true... Even a counter would be a dream. ^^ GET FALCO UP THE TIER LIST NOW!

 

[saviorslegacy]

So Infinity, would you say Pit is pretty even against a MK?

ps I think MK ***** Falco. Just my opinion. -__-

 

[8AngeL8]

Lol, pit is not even with MK. He's a crappier knock off with a projectile instead of the blinding speed and no-lag that makes MK good.

 

[ftl]

Lol, Falco's pretty high up on the tier list as it is. And he's 4th in Ankoku's tourney rankings, behind MK/Snake/D3. He doesn't need MKs to give him an advantage in the matchup to be good.

Also, Planking is just camping. If I'm Falco and I'm playing on Jungle Japes, the second I get a percent lead I'm heading over to the left platform, and I'm staying there. Is that stalling? On Corneria, there are a number of characters which will head over to the fin the second they get a lead, because that's the best place for them to fight. Is that stalling? Hell, on any flat stage, as a Falco there'll be lots of times when I'll be at one end of the stage lasering, and there's no way I'm planning to go towards them, even if they're a crouching kirby and I'll never hit them with a laser.

Same thing with Planking. It's just taking the fight to the edge, same as taking the fight to the left platform on JJapes or the fin on Corneria or just sitting there expecting an approach on any stage.

For any of those, it takes TWO people COOPERATING for it to be stalling. If MK doesn't want to approach (he's sitting on the edge planking) and the Falco doesn't want to approach (he's sitting on the other edge of the stage lasering) then yeah, it wastes time. But, just like in any of the other situations, if either one of them wants to approach, they can. SK92 hit Plank quite a number of time on the edge in that match. It's not like it's an infinite invincibility, like an IDC or firestalling.

If you want it to be banned, then you need to make a specific rule covering it and get it included in the standard ruleset; the current 'stalling' rules do not include it.

 

[King Funk]

Lol, Falco's pretty high up on the tier list as it is. And he's 4th in Ankoku's tourney rankings, behind MK/Snake/D3. He doesn't need MKs to give him an advantage in the matchup to be good.

I know, but my ******* Falco fandom wants him to be at least higher than G&W and D3...

 

[J4pu]

If Falco countered MK, then he would counter every character above him on the tier list other than G&W which would be freakin hilarious (I'm calling the G&W 45:55 in GW favor).

 

[Infinitysmash]

So Infinity, would you say Pit is pretty even against a MK?

ps I think MK ***** Falco. Just my opinion. -__-

I don't think so. I don't know a whole lot about the matchup, but I do know that I feel like Pit is basically a watered down Metaknight.

Lol, Falco's pretty high up on the tier list as it is. And he's 4th in Ankoku's tourney rankings, behind MK/Snake/D3. He doesn't need MKs to give him an advantage in the matchup to be good.

Also, Planking is just camping. If I'm Falco and I'm playing on Jungle Japes, the second I get a percent lead I'm heading over to the left platform, and I'm staying there. Is that stalling? On Corneria, there are a number of characters which will head over to the fin the second they get a lead, because that's the best place for them to fight. Is that stalling? Hell, on any flat stage, as a Falco there'll be lots of times when I'll be at one end of the stage lasering, and there's no way I'm planning to go towards them, even if they're a crouching kirby and I'll never hit them with a laser.

Same thing with Planking. It's just taking the fight to the edge, same as taking the fight to the left platform on JJapes or the fin on Corneria or just sitting there expecting an approach on any stage.

For any of those, it takes TWO people COOPERATING for it to be stalling. If MK doesn't want to approach (he's sitting on the edge planking) and the Falco doesn't want to approach (he's sitting on the other edge of the stage lasering) then yeah, it wastes time. But, just like in any of the other situations, if either one of them wants to approach, they can. SK92 hit Plank quite a number of time on the edge in that match. It's not like it's an infinite invincibility, like an IDC or firestalling.

If you want it to be banned, then you need to make a specific rule covering it and get it included in the standard ruleset; the current 'stalling' rules do not include it.

Everything that you pointed out are helpful strategies to those characters and they use them as part of a strategy and not to exploit a loophole in the rules. Stalling on the ledge with Metaknight is not helpful and does nothing to further your strategy.

You can't do anything to hit anyone from there unless they're dumb enough to run out at you and it does absolutely nothing productive for you to grab the edge while your opponent is on the stage when you're playing as Metaknight. Stalling on the ledge to gain near infinite invincibility frames specifically so the timer will run out and you win is exactly that: stalling. If the player is doing something productive with the strategy then it's a different story, but if they're there purely to run out the timer or purely to avoid being damaged while not doing anything to further the state of the game then it's stalling. Getting ahead of someone to force them to chase you is a strategy; getting ahead of someone and doing nothing but avoid conflict is stalling.

If Falco countered MK, then he would counter every character above him on the tier list other than G&W which would be freakin hilarious (I'm calling the G&W 45:55 in GW favor).

How can this be true dude? Yoshi has a solid matchup against Metaknight, but has a very hard time against nearly all of the rest of the top tier. Just because you have a good matchup against one character doesn't mean you have a better matchup against everyone than that character does. This makes no sense.

 

[J4pu]

How can this be true dude? Yoshi has a solid matchup against Metaknight, but has a very hard time against nearly all of the rest of the top tier. Just because you have a good matchup against one character doesn't mean you have a better matchup against everyone than that character does. This makes no sense.

...
lrn2Falco pl0x
Falco counters Snake and DDD already, has nothing to do with whether or not he counters MK.
I'm merely stating that if you add MK to that list he counters nearly everybody ahead of him on the tier list. Merely a funny observation...

 

[8AngeL8]

Why is everybody so angry in this thread? We already know Falco/MK is a pretty close match, is there any wonder some people think it falls to one side or the other?

 

[Teran]

Darn it, it's so tempting to put up that black Meta picture again. Should I...?

 

[Infinitysmash]

...
lrn2Falco pl0x
Falco counters Snake and DDD already, has nothing to do with whether or not he counters MK.
I'm merely stating that if you add MK to that list he counters nearly everybody ahead of him on the tier list. Merely a funny observation...

Gotcha. The way you said it sounded different than the way you meant it

And I'm not saying he counters Metaknight per se, just that he has an inherent advantage in the matchup. It's a soft counter at best.

 

[ftl]

You can't do anything to hit anyone from there unless they're dumb enough to run out at you

You walk up to them. You fight them when their invincibility runs out and they have to do something, which therefore involves leaving the edge and giving up their invincibility frames. It's not unbeatable. It's not like they're permanently invincible. If you watch, SK gets a lot of hits in on Plank, though not enough to win.

and it does absolutely nothing productive for you to grab the edge while your opponent is on the stage when you're playing as Metaknight.

It does nothing productive for you to go to the left platform on JJapes when you're playing as Falco and they're on the middle bottom - you can't hit them. It does nothing productive to go to the fin in Corneria if they're on the main part of the stage, you can't hit them. It does nothing productive to go to the opposite end of FD and laserspam if they're crouching as Kirby, you can't hit them. Planking is 'unproductive' in exactly the same way that those are unproductive. In any of those cases, if the opponent is stubborn and refuses to fight in a place where he's disadvantaged, the timer will run out, but that's not the usual case, since at any given point there's at least one person who's behind and thus has to go to a disadvantaged position to try to close it.

Stalling on the ledge to gain near infinite invincibility frames specifically so the timer will run out and you win is exactly that: stalling.

The point isn't to run out the timer, the point is to force an approach. Same as any other positioning advantage.

If the player is doing something productive with the strategy then it's a different story, but if they're there purely to run out the timer or purely to avoid being damaged while not doing anything to further the state of the game then it's stalling. Getting ahead of someone to force them to chase you is a strategy; getting ahead of someone and doing nothing but avoid conflict is stalling.

And Planking does not have the intent of avoiding conflict. In case you notice, when SK92 came close to Plank, Plank didn't drop down off the edge and fly underneath the stage to the next edge to run out the timer - that would indeed be stalling, under current rules. He HIT THE OPPONENT and then went back to the same position he was before (the nearest edge), since it was a good position for him to be in. In that same match which gave Planking its name, the timer never ran out.

Planking is just a positional advantage. It's the only place on the stage where Falco's lasers can't hit; ergo, it's the only way MK can force Falco to get near him rather than the other way around. That's its main use. Not running out the timer. Running out the timer is just what happens when a character that isn't used to needing to approach (Falco, because of his lasers) doesn't realize that he's in a position where HE has to approach, and so sits there laserspamming at nothing, waiting for MK to come to him instead of going to MK.

As I said before, if you want Planking to be against the rules, you have to modify them, because it's certainly not against the rules right now. (Heck, you don't even need detailed arguments to see that, just note that at the tournament (the later rounds of a high-level tournament!) where that match happened, Plank was not disqualified, despite the TOs certainly seeing the match and knowing what was going on, nobody was hiding it.)

 

[bob-e]

The issue isn't whether or not planking falls under camping or stalling.

What it comes down to is that very few tournaments ban it (because it's almost impossible to clearly define), and it can completely destroy Falco. Sure Falco might have an advantage if Metaknight doesn't plank. Falco also might have an advantage against Game and Watch if he doesn't use aerials. The point is: when looking at a match up, you have to consider everything that both character have at their disposal. As long as Metaknight can plank, I can't see this being in Falco's favor. 5:5 at best, depending on the stage.

 

[Maniclysane]

How can this be true dude? Yoshi has a solid matchup against Metaknight, but has a very hard time against nearly all of the rest of the top tier. Just because you have a good matchup against one character doesn't mean you have a better matchup against everyone than that character does. This makes no sense.

What drugs are you on? Yoshi does not have a solid match up on MK. The Yoshi boards are on all kinds of crazy drugs to believe he has a solid match up. The Jigglypuff boards also have a thread on how to counter MK. Does that mean she counters MK? No. She just has strategies that work well on MK. Yoshi has strategies that work against MK. MK has tons more on Yoshi and Jigglypuff.

 

[ftl]

The issue isn't whether or not planking falls under camping or stalling.

What it comes down to is that very few tournaments ban it (because it's almost impossible to clearly define), and it can completely destroy Falco.

All this I agree with. The claim by Infinity that I am arguing against was the claim that all tournaments ALREADY ban it via the ban on stalling.

 

[8AngeL8]

What drugs are you on? Yoshi does not have a solid match up on MK. The Yoshi boards are on all kinds of crazy drugs to believe he has a solid match up. The Jigglypuff boards also have a thread on how to counter MK. Does that mean she counters MK? No. She just has strategies that work well on MK. Yoshi has strategies that work against MK. MK has tons more on Yoshi and Jigglypuff.

Hold on there, buddy. It's not just the Yoshi boards saying it. Yoshi legitimately has a good chance against MK with his great chain grab, spikes, eggs etc. I wouldn't call him a counter, but a good pick against MK to be sure.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Everything that you pointed out are helpful strategies to those characters and they use them as part of a strategy and not to exploit a loophole in the rules. Stalling on the ledge with Metaknight is not helpful and does nothing to further your strategy.

You can't do anything to hit anyone from there unless they're dumb enough to run out at you and it does absolutely nothing productive for you to grab the edge while your opponent is on the stage when you're playing as Metaknight. Stalling on the ledge to gain near infinite invincibility frames specifically so the timer will run out and you win is exactly that: stalling. If the player is doing something productive with the strategy then it's a different story, but if they're there purely to run out the timer or purely to avoid being damaged while not doing anything to further the state of the game then it's stalling. Getting ahead of someone to force them to chase you is a strategy; getting ahead of someone and doing nothing but avoid conflict is stalling.

yes, it is stalling, but it is allowed. after the MK player takes a % lead, they can ledgecamp and while it is pretty cheap, it's allowed.

How much research have you done on this subject? How many times have you played with Metaknight at the top end of a tournament? How well do you really know the character, and are you a knowledgable authority on his match up stats?


In regards to people camping on the ledge a.k.a "Planking:" call the TO over and explain to them that the Metaknight player is stalling. They're deliberately slowing the pace of the game in order to attempt to exploit a loophole in the rules, which is stalling and stalling is banned according to the SBR recommended rule list. The TO can watch and determine whether or not the Metaknight player is stalling and can give them a match loss for it. Please, instead of sitting by and idly complaining about this, do something about it!

what are you trying to prove? so yes, i have not made it to the finals of a top tourney or anything, but so what? does that mean i do not know about MK's matchups? because that would be wrong, i know his matchups, and the truth is that HE HAS NO BAD MATCHUPS. seriously. some 50-50s and some have argued that snake is 55:45 against MK, but those are all NEUTRALS. therefore, he has no bad matchups.

and the 2nd point about planking....just won't work. trust me, ive been to tournies and know this for sure.

 

[saviorslegacy]

T-T why is Pit so hated on???????