The Metaknight Forum...

[dainbramage]

Why is planking brought into a match-up discussion? Because it's done? Only by Plank really, no one else has managed to lose all morals and play that gay lol.

Because the matchup threads should focus on the most effective play styles for each character in said matchup. Otherwise we're considering second-rate play by the opponent, so we may as well just say "If MK uses nothing but drill rush (an obviously ineffective strategy), then falco has a 90:10 advantage."

 

[Mikey7]

J4pu - I never said Falco had an advantage (haha an advantage over MK...), I just addressed planking. And I was talking about MK double jumping onto the ledge. Lasers work.
Also, you're overtheorizing too much.

 

[Tommy_G]

lrn2grabledge->invuln-aerials.

 

[J4pu]

Your percentages are not anything to be taken seriously at all, I can say that I will have a 1836729265283572629% success rate; doesn't mean it's true.
If you noticed the only time I used percentage was when I had legit backing this time, other than when I gave you that 75% success rate at reading MK, which as I stated is very generous considering if you really could predict that much you would be winning every other major tourney. The time when I used 1/3 chance was because there were only three possibilities, therefore the chances are a legit 1/3 for each of them.

Nice try, this is a really pathetic attempt to make me seem as if I don't know what I'm talking about.
no actually this was responding to your bad grammar because I didn't want to waste time answering the wrong thing because I was misunderstanding you, go back and read your post then say you disagree with this.

How about you DI the bair away from the stage, you get hit by the weaker part of SL and MK gets stage spiked. Who cares if he doesn't die? He's not on the edge.
ok so then you are hit off stage into a position where you have to possibility of being gimped, that was one of the options I gave, go look if you don't believe me

Why is planking brought into a match-up discussion? Because it's done? Only by Plank really, no one else has managed to lose all morals and play that gay lol.
planking is a matchup dsicussion because we are talking about the highest level of play where both players know the match-up inside and out and are playing to win, honor is the thing that should not come into this, go read some guides and see how many of them advise playing with "honor" in a tournament setting
Stop with the stupid ****ing stats, none of them are real, based off fact or reliable. Yes, MK is forced onto the stage, which is what we want.
this wasn't a stat, it was a damage %... MK takes about 7% damage from whatever throw you chose to use

do you like how I respond to your whole post while you only pick out certain things that you can think of a response to?

EDIT-

lrn2grabledge->invuln-aerials.

ok let's ignore the chance that you fail to grab the edge which is being somewhat generous again although not as much as the 75% prediction success rate. Then what happens, you're going to instantly drop and aerial while you have invincibility frames right? I'll split this into a success and fail section so you can really see the difference.
SUCCESS: MK takes damage and if he as over about 65%damage he dies, you recover. So, that's like either a semi low percent gimp or just some damage done.
FAIL: MK airdodges through your invinicble attack and then punishes you after, if you failed to DJ before your aerial that's you getting gimped (since you don't want me to give you a percent chance of surviving let's just say you get gimped no matter what). Or if you DJ your aerial and MK hits you with his long range, quick, disjointed hitbox immediately after your DJ you are stuck under the stage with no jumps left against arguably the best edge-guarder= you get gimped. That means failing = you get gimped at any amount of damage

it seems to me like once again MK is strongly favored, go figure, I mea it isn't like I didn't already address this once yesterday...

lrn2create_a_reasonable_argument

 

[§witch]

If you noticed the only time I used percentage was when I had legit backing this time, other than when I gave you that 75% success rate at reading MK, which as I stated is very generous considering if you really could predict that much you would be winning every other major tourney. The time when I used 1/3 chance was because there were only three possibilities, therefore the chances are a legit 1/3 for each of them.

No, no, that's horribly flawed logic. Simply because there are 3 possibilities, does not mean it's a 1/3 chance.

ok so then you are hit off stage into a position where you have to possibility of being gimped, that was one of the options I gave, go look if you don't believe me

Mr. Grammer nazi doesn't punctuate or use capitals, nice. After getting hit by the preferred part of SL, you are within DJ range of the stage anyways.

planking is a matchup dsicussion because we are talking about the highest level of play where both players know the match-up inside and out and are playing to win, honor is the thing that should not come into this, go read some guides and see how many of them advise playing with "honor" in a tournament setting

Nice run-on sentence.
You know **** well I only mentioned that due to you discrediting something I said due to the fact that it's a scrub thing to do.

his wasn't a stat, it was a damage %... MK takes about 7% damage from whatever throw you chose to use

Find me the part where I said grab.

 

[J4pu]

No, no, that's horribly flawed logic. Simply because there are 3 possibilities, does not mean it's a 1/3 chance.

you are right here, If you DI away from the stage it about 100% chance just getting hit offstage (if you are at a high/ decently high percent and you DI towards the edge that means death against SL) but if you don't DI at all then it becomes the 1/3 scenario; getting hit offstage when you trade hits isn't a very big win for Falco if you think about it.

Mr. Grammer nazi doesn't punctuate or use capitals, nice. After getting hit by the preferred part of SL, you are within DJ range of the stage anyways.

(if you are at a high/ decently high percent and you DI towards the edge that means death against SL), getting hit offstage when you trade hits isn't a very big win for Falco if you think about it.

If he is to drop so hello to bair/dair/uair. Or we just grab the edge and get a free dunk anyways.

this is the only part I was referring you needing to fix your grammar, and perhaps grammar was the wrong word, what i meant was fix your syntax so that I can clearly understand what you are saying, since me responding to this part was kind of like guessing at what you were saying.

Nice run-on sentence.
apologies, I know my grammar isn't great, I don't expect yours to be either, I explained myself above about what I really meant, my fault for not being clear
You know **** well I only mentioned that due to you discrediting something I said due to the fact that it's a scrub thing to do.

this is terrible logic, you bring up a scrub mentality because I told you something else was scrub mentality?

Find me the part where I said grab.

you didn't you quoted me where I did, and here it is:

or you just manage to predict a SL and Shield it then perfect shield the glide attack you get a grab out of the situation and MK gets hit slightly off-stage, ok so that's like 8% in your favor.

Stop with the stupid ****ing stats, none of them are real, based off fact or reliable. Yes, MK is forced onto the stage, which is what we want.

this is exactly what you quoted, I can understand you misunderstanding me though since I had been using so many % scenarios previously, but I meant 8% damage

haha, I like the picture and it's kind of true (which would mean you are also calling yourself ********) but I actually enjoy arguing. I enjoy formulating a sensible argument to express things the way I see them. And even though it probably often sounds like I'm getting mad at you, i'm not really (except when people argue badly with things that I have already effectively countered, that gets annoying repeating myself) it's just my style of formulating a point that I have found to be most effective (or maybe the most effective at getting a response back from you). So call me crazy or w/e but I enjoy it to a certain extent.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

mk's priority is entirely implied, meaning smart (not constant, smart)use of lasers and intelligent camp can shut him down pretty well. he's got a good rush down, but his approach is limited to the ground, fire a low laser, he either eats it, jumps, or shields

if he eats it, good job, follow it up

if he shields, fire another, then run after the laser, so you can grab when he shields it

if he jumps, his air speed is crap, zone his ***

 

[J4pu]

MK covers ground insanely fast and Falco's SH takes forever, and grounded lasers leave falco with lag.
we have to assume the MK knows how to space if we are talking about a real matchup, therefore MK gets close, possibly taking a laser on the way, then he is in an area that falco doesn't want him to be, the most useful thing to do if you are not prepared for this close combat is to IAP away, but if you were planning on him getting up close really quickly you probably throw in a SH without lasers to try and get a (real) hit in and follow-up from there.

regardless, MK doesn't just sit on the other side of the stage and take lasers, he attempts to get perfectly within range so that his hit box can reach but falco's can't, Falco is going to be aware of this of course and has to make decisions, it really seems like a circular path so i'm just gunna leave it at that.

 

[§witch]

haha, I like the picture and it's kind of true (which would mean you are also calling yourself ********) but I actually enjoy arguing. I enjoy formulating a sensible argument to express things the way I see them. And even though it probably often sounds like I'm getting mad at you, i'm not really (except when people argue badly with things that I have already effectively countered, that gets annoying repeating myself) it's just my style of formulating a point that I have found to be most effective (or maybe the most effective at getting a response back from you). So call me crazy or w/e but I enjoy it to a certain extent.

Yep, no matter what in an internet argument you always look ********. But we've pretty much hit a stalemate here; people can at least see what both sides of this argument have to say.

 

[J4pu]

well I disagree about the stalemate but I will cease the arguing at least until my finals are over, and by then this topic will be like 2nd page and I won't even remember.

My final thought on the subject: if planking wasn't effective for MK, why would people get so mad about it (people don't get mad when people use ineffective strategies) and why would Plank use it to win if he had a better chance on stage?

ok, there, I'm done.

 

[XxBlackxX]

well I disagree about the stalemate but I will cease the arguing at least until my finals are over, and by then this topic will be like 2nd page and I won't even remember.

My final thought on the subject: if planking wasn't effective for MK, why would people get so mad about it (people don't get mad when people use ineffective strategies) and why would Plank use it to win if he had a better chance on stage?

ok, there, I'm done.

unrelated, but you have finals in december o_o?

 

[J4pu]

college, on the quarter system, a new quarter starts after winter break.
I have 3 sets of finals per year, more if I take summer sessions.

 

[Tommy_G]

do you like how I respond to your whole post while you only pick out certain things that you can think of a response to?

EDIT-
ok let's ignore the chance that you fail to grab the edge which is being somewhat generous again although not as much as the 75% prediction success rate. Then what happens, you're going to instantly drop and aerial while you have invincibility frames right? I'll split this into a success and fail section so you can really see the difference.
SUCCESS: MK takes damage and if he as over about 65%damage he dies, you recover. So, that's like either a semi low percent gimp or just some damage done.
FAIL: MK airdodges through your invinicble attack and then punishes you after, if you failed to DJ before your aerial that's you getting gimped (since you don't want me to give you a percent chance of surviving let's just say you get gimped no matter what). Or if you DJ your aerial and MK hits you with his long range, quick, disjointed hitbox immediately after your DJ you are stuck under the stage with no jumps left against arguably the best edge-guarder= you get gimped. That means failing = you get gimped at any amount of damage

it seems to me like once again MK is strongly favored, go figure, I mea it isn't like I didn't already address this once yesterday...

lrn2create_a_reasonable_argument

You should not ever mess up the fall off ledge grab. It's too easy to mess up.

well I disagree about the stalemate but I will cease the arguing at least until my finals are over, and by then this topic will be like 2nd page and I won't even remember.

My final thought on the subject: if planking wasn't effective for MK, why would people get so mad about it (people don't get mad when people use ineffective strategies) and why would Plank use it to win if he had a better chance on stage?

ok, there, I'm done.

People are use to fighting game being about fighting. They have pride in being able out out maneuver the opponent and trick them into smashes. When MK planks, its such a big slap in the face. It's because of them running that's making you want to chase them down. That aggressive mindset and mindlessly going after them gets you gimped. I don't ever get gayed by anyone off the stage. Marth, GaW, MK don't ever gimp me off the stage. Once you learn your way around it, it's not as hard as people make it seem.

SK92 was beating or going even with plank until he kept rolling back into his tornado.

 

[J4pu]

You should not ever mess up the fall off ledge grab. It's too easy to mess up.

i was referring to you messing up by having the MK correctly predict your ledge-drop aerial after you had already grabbed the edge, not by failing to grab the edge. So far everybody is saying, oh it's so easy to read what the MK is going to do, well in this scenario it is freakin obvious for the MK to read what the Falco is going to do.

People are use to fighting game being about fighting. They have pride in being able out out maneuver the opponent and trick them into smashes. When MK planks, its such a big slap in the face. It's because of them running that's making you want to chase them down. That aggressive mindset and mindlessly going after them gets you gimped. I don't ever get gayed by anyone off the stage. Marth, GaW, MK don't ever gimp me off the stage. Once you learn your way around it, it's not as hard as people make it seem.

SK92 was beating or going even with plank until he kept rolling back into his tornado.

stop using individual person to person matches to illustrate your points, the facts state, that once you are off-stage you have limited options and a time restraint before you fall to your death, MK has the ability to deal with each of those option if he reads it correctly. We are not the only character that tries to predict the opponent...

**** stop distracting me from studying.

 

[Tommy_G]

stop using individual person to person matches to illustrate your points, the facts state, that once you are off-stage you have limited options and a time restraint before you fall to your death, MK has the ability to deal with each of those option if he reads it correctly. We are not the only character that tries to predict the opponent...

**** stop distracting me from studying.

You dont need to read MK. If you see him hovering slightly above or below the ledge, time an invulnerable(invuln from ledge drop early) aerial, preferably d-air. If MK is way below the stage when you grab the ledge, either roll back on or get-up-attack hoping it would hit him. Either way Falco is still safe.

 

[J4pu]

If MK sees falco grab the edge and understands anything about ledge mechanics he will airdodge during the time you could ledge drop and aerial w/ invinc frames (the ledge holds you for a while, and then you have a small amount of frames that you can use for invinc ledge dropped attacks).
So what this means is either nothing happens or the falco tries to attack MK after the AD which means he no longer has invinc frames which means he is in trouble in the current situation.

so either the situation resets
or the falco gets greedy trying to get a hit in (which a good falco wouldn't do most likely) and likely gets gimped

because the 2nd probably won't happen all this does is run out more time on the clock and put MK closer to victory.

 

[Infinitysmash]

I come back after not checking this for the weekend and find that rather than having a well thought out, logical discussion that people are now arguing with a guy who literally pulled numbers out of thin air in regards to ledge strategies. There are 3 or 4 other people offering strategies to you j4pu, why not listen to them and give them a try rather than just shut them down and say no?

I would like to offer a sincere thank you to everyone who has contributed to this conversation, but I'm finished here and I'm going to let you guys do the rest of the discussion from this point. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I come back after not checking this for the weekend and find that rather than having a well thought out, logical discussion that people are now arguing with a guy who literally pulled numbers out of thin air in regards to ledge strategies. There are 3 or 4 other people offering strategies to you j4pu, why not listen to them and give them a try rather than just shut them down and say no?

I would like to offer a sincere thank you to everyone who has contributed to this conversation, but I'm finished here and I'm going to let you guys do the rest of the discussion from this point. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

actually, though J4 did pull the %s randomly, his arguments were very thought-out. he didn't just "shut down and say no" he stated WHY those tactics wouldn't work. actually im kinda neutral. i agree MK has a advantage while planking, but falco does have ways of dealing with them, though some are risky and some of the ways they stated were no-no's.

 

[kook_U]

actually, though J4 did pull the %s randomly, his arguments were very thought-out. he didn't just "shut down and say no" he stated WHY those tactics wouldn't work. actually im kinda neutral. i agree MK has a advantage while planking, but falco does have ways of dealing with them, though some are risky and some of the ways they stated were no-no's.

lol
umm most of his tactics for Falco losing is based on set up senarios. So of course what he says about Falco getting gimped makes sense but is it true? no.
no one knows whats going to happen in those circumstances, not even the players, planking is not some unbeatable tech, if it was Falco would be getting owned everywhere.

 

[J4pu]

I was strictly discussing planking, which is a set-up scenario...
Planking gives Falco very few intelligent options, they were all brought up and basing everything on both the Falco and MK knowing their situation I gave a logical analysis on what would happen. Please give one more good option Falco has that hasn't already been discussed.

Edge-hog > ledge-drop Aerial w/ invinc. frames is Falco's best option, unless the MK hits him with an Uair before he can grab the edge it is completely safe for Falco, problem is, MK will predict the Falco usin his invinc frames for attacking and can safely AD through the very few frames that Falco has invinc frames.
all this does is run out time which is the goal the MK has anyways while planking, so think of something intelligent to say next time you try critiquing people's analyses.

 

[Staco]

I can understand, why the mk boards made this thread
atm falco gets better and better, I think
m2k said he would say mk, snake, falco, diddy and olimar are top tier Oo (luigi_player told this to me)

falco has got an advantage against meta
he is good against ddd and snake
and so on

 

[kook_U]

@j4pu
lol
you seem alittle pissed, first off, not sure what was unintelligent about my last post, also why shouldn't i critique your post? isn't this a debate thread?
anyways....
The thing that is wrong with your "perfect" scenarios is that you act like MK will always make the right choice in the matter. Just because you might have an idea of what the falco might do, doesn't mean you can defend against it, no one has perfect timing, if they did they would never get hit. I'll say it again, if planking was so unbeatable against falco, then why does no one use it? easy because its not, it puts metakinght in an unsafe position, to get gimped. No one has perfect timing, the pros know this, so they avoid using it. Stop acting like this is some godly tech that can beat falco, cause i many others, and Plank himself will tell you your wrong.

Also to just break away in the middle of fighting to run to the edge because you have the lower %, is hard to do in the first place and could easily get you punished pretty badly.

 

[J4pu]

I was annoyed because you came in and said: you're wrong, you only mentioned possible scenarios, when we had gone over every decent option Falco had.

Once again you are saying nobody is perfect, at some point the MK will make a mistake, well how does this not also hold true for the Falco? Is only the MK ever going to make mistakes? And when they do make a mistake who is more likely to get gimped? MK with his 6 DJ's and 4 special moves that can be used for recovery, or Falco who has 1 DJ until he touches ground again and an abysmal UpB if he isn't at or above stage height?

Am I saying the MK is going to come out on top every time? No, I'm saying he has an advantage in this situation, and that is all.

If you had actually gone back and read through the older posts all of your points were already discussed, and that's what annoys me, having to repeat myself.

If planking doesn't give MK an advantage why would anyone (mainly just Plank, but some others have done it) do it in the first place? And why would anybody complain that it is being cheap and unfair if it is really just giving the Falco an advantage? Wouldn't they just be like, hey thanks for the nice opportunity to kill you?

Now let me repeat myself again in this post so I hopefully don't have to do it again later:
I'm saying that MK has an advantage in this situation, and that is all. I'm not saying it is 100:0 in MK's favor.

 

[Mikey7]

J4pu - you're over-theorizing ; )

 

[J4pu]

theorizing is what match-ups are about
the best of one character against the best of another

 

[Plairnkk]

I use it only because Falco is annoying as **** so i enjoy annoying them back.

 

[Tommy_G]

You're Metaknight... you have no room to talk about annoying characters.

This is said while ignoring the stupid ledge games.

 

[Plairnkk]

Falco and diddy are probably the two most annoying characters. How good a character is and how annoying they are aren't the same thing at all.

 

[§witch]

Falco and diddy are probably the two most annoying characters. How good a character is and how annoying they are aren't the same thing at all.

Aye, but in MK's case, one goes hand in hand with the other.

 

[Plairnkk]

The only thing "annoying" about MK is his tornado, and any good player can punish that move well anyway (save DK and Bowser)

 

[XxBlackxX]

The only thing "annoying" about MK is his tornado, and any good player can punish that move well anyway (save DK and Bowser)

that's what you think
almost EVERYTHING about MK is annoying to ME ( except tornado. i don't find nado too bad, because like you said, you can punish it) .

especially planking xDDDDDDD

 

[Plairnkk]

Planking is very easy to get around for most characters, and any character can get around it if you are smart.

I don't even do it against smart players because I get punished. It's more beneficial to fight normal.

If you are going to go into the match with a mental block of "OMG, MK IS GAY" like 99% of newbie brawlers, of course he is going to be annoying.

I am even guilty of this (or well, mainly used to be, i've gotten better) with Lucario. Everything he does pisses me off.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Planking is very easy to get around for most characters, and any character can get around it if you are smart.

I don't even do it against smart players because I get punished. It's more beneficial to fight normal.

If you are going to go into the match with a mental block of "OMG, MK IS GAY" like 99% of newbie brawlers, of course he is going to be annoying.

I am even guilty of this (or well, mainly used to be, i've gotten better) with Lucario. Everything he does pisses me off.

"MK is annoying"=/= "OMG, MK is UNBEATABLE!"
sure i hate him as a character, but i deal with it and beaten some of the MKs in my area.

anyways, my quip about planking was j/k.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Planking is very easy to get around for most characters, and any character can get around it if you are smart.

I heard other things. M2K said that he planked you and as a consequence 3 stocked your mk iirc

Are you really stupid?

 

[Mew2King]

don't try to justify that gay *** strategy LOL but ya diddy and falco are far more annoying than MK and all MK has annoying is tornado and that's only for certain characters otherwise he's easy to just ****.

 

[Mith_]

Planking is very easy to get around for most characters, and any character can get around it if you are smart.

I don't even do it against smart players because I get punished. It's more beneficial to fight normal.

If you are going to go into the match with a mental block of "OMG, MK IS GAY" like 99% of newbie brawlers, of course he is going to be annoying.

I am even guilty of this (or well, mainly used to be, i've gotten better) with Lucario. Everything he does pisses me off.

Ugg, my buddy mains Lucario and training against him ****in sucks he is so gay.

 

[§witch]

I heard other things. M2K said that he planked you and as a consequence 3 stocked your mk iirc

Are you really stupid?

Well, one match can't be an indication of anything like that, but touché.

The only thing "annoying" about MK is his tornado, and any good player can punish that move well anyway (save DK and Bowser)

True, his tornado is the main annoying thing about him, but it's not that easy to punish; otherwise it wouldn't be such a good move. It's easy enough to say "SDI up, and dair", which I do but really, it's not always effective.

 

[Tommy_G]

The thing I find annoying about MK is that all of his moves have a lot of range. Smart MKs that know how to space will keep you away and force you to be a bit campy. I hate playing campy, but I like the options Falco has and how he plays.

Do you have any idea how mindblowing and annoying MK Up-B-ing in between your dash attack canceled up smash? Invuln frames in a move? I'd like me some of them.

 

[Hyo]

^Invulnerable framed lasers plox.

 

[Tommy_G]

I'm pretty sure you can get hit while shooting a laser.