The Marth Matchup Ratio Thread (V2)

[Anaky]

Gluttony is so good at getting in and ****** Marth, which is what Wario needs to do. I think using Gluttony is the best example.

 

[Akashi]

Also random note, but I play Hunger a lot (arguably 2nd best wario or something, idk), and he said that Wario has a true nair -> fart combo on Marth around 45ish%? Wario starts @ that %, so by the end Marth may be in kill range if he's near the ledge. I'm not sure if it works, but everytime he lands it on me I get hit by it. Not sure if it can be DI'd or not, since nair has a weird hitlag to it. *shrugs*

 

[Nike.]

I hate wario's nair. I alwayssss get combod into something else from it. Wouldn't be surprised if that worked.

So after money matching Gnes this weekend, I think I've come back down to earth. Diddy is only -1, not -2 lol.

 

[Anaky]

Pretty 50/50, id say 55/45 to us though.

 

[Gnes]

Its even mr. nike ^_^

 

[Nike.]

Ewwwwwwww

/denial

 

[Akashi]

I hate wario's nair. I alwayssss get combod into something else from it. Wouldn't be surprised if that worked.

So after money matching Gnes this weekend, I think I've come back down to earth. Diddy is only -1, not -2 lol.

so impressive, congrats Nike :D. I also agree on the -1. Diddy is so... hard

 

[Shaya]

Its even mr. nike ^_^

Really?

Tell me how to win~
I dealt with MK's **** for like 2+ years, but diddy kong's gayness made me quit.

 

[V]

Yeah I think diddy is way gayer than mk. Mk is just hard because you have to be spot on with your reaction time in order to punish him. But getting in on diddy is stupid. And dedede makes me wanna choke puppies.

 

[Xisin]

a lil off topic here from what's being said but has there ever been a real discussion on the wolf MU other than" haven't played it much but i feel its even"? Sorry to interject.

 

[Shaya]

I played it pretty religiously for like 2 straight years of brawl.

Its evenish, with some things going for them on both sides. IMO I feel its a really really slight advantage marth due to grab gayness and gimping options.

 

[DAS]

I can't beat Snake with Marth I always get 2 stocked by decent or good snakes. I lose confidence before the match starts and make more mistakes than ever what should I do? I can't approach right I always get grabbed or tilted or hit by a bomb I'm just a wreck against him.

 

[C.J.]

I can't beat Snake with Marth I always get 2 stocked by decent or good snakes. I lose confidence before the match starts and make more mistakes than ever what should I do? I can't approach right I always get grabbed or tilted or hit by a bomb I'm just a wreck against him.

Well, the biggest thing is to STOP this:

I lose confidence before the match starts and make more mistakes than ever

 

[DAS]

I see I just need to look at Snake as just another character but only with different moves. I use to be a lot more patient against them which helped plenty but matches took like 5-7 to win with Marth unless I had complete control.

 

[C.J.]

It's Brawl? 5 minutes is a pretty average match length unless both people are just running into stuff/one player is far better than the other.

 

[Nike.]

I just realized I had Rei-Gun listed twice on the list lol.
*fixes*

 

[Reizilla]

Way to bring a brother down

 

[Reizilla]

Would anyone be against making a compendium of matchup information? The current match-up thread is way outdated and there's a lot of stuff that people know and can provide insight to, but it gets lost in the social thread. I, personally wouldn't mind running it, though I wouldn't be able to contribute much. It doesn't necessarily have to be a full-out match-up thread, but just somewhere to keep all of the useful information. Something that I could look up real quick between matches for quick tips or just to keep things in mind.

Spoiler

and it'd be a decent way for me to learn more about the 35 match-ups I never get to play >_>

No? Yes?

If I could get my hand on that frame data, I could make lists for characters like what Neo was suggesting in the social thread.

 

[V]

I'm in the process of going over every characters' options in every situation and what our best options are in relation to theirs. When I'm done I'll PM the word doc to shaya.

 

[DellSmashman]

My opinions are:
Diddy, Marth's worst matchup, still -1 though, then MK, DDD (the least hardest out of all the -1s.)
I think ROB is his 4th worst mu (even still noneoftheless) and something else in the even's probably (DK)
TL is +1 though.

Otherwise, pretty much.

 

[Reizilla]

That'll be interesting to see, SFH. As long as Shaya doesn't keep it hidden like his frame data

 

[V]

I'll just post it myself.

 

[FireFly]

My opinions are:
Diddy, Marth's worst matchup, still -1 though, then MK, DDD (the least hardest out of all the -1s.)
I think ROB is his 4th worst mu (even still noneoftheless) and something else in the even's probably (DK)
TL is +1 though.

Otherwise, pretty much.

Yeah agree'd because of those are the characters that my all friends main. Hopefully the new match up compendium will explain exactly why.

 

[Nike.]

Bumpsies.

So v2 project might come underway in the near future. And our boards are kinda dead like usual, so maybe we could get some discussion.

I guess a pretty big topic we could start with is:
Is Metaknight -1 (Slight Disadvantage) or -2 (Soft Counter)?

 

[C.J.]

-1

The MU is so even. It really just comes down to us getting tipper fsmash/GR->Dair vs them juggling and gimping us imo.

Although we do get CPed kinda hard.

 

[Kuro~]

I think if it could only be played on neutrals it would be sooo close to even. But the cp's he has benefit him way more than us. Though it's not unwinnable even on his CPs(see haze vs anti on rc trololol). I think it's just who gets that first stock. Mk can play pretty dumb vs marth if he gets the stock lead.Cuz with his SL OoS being able to punish everything it basically becomes a rock paper scissors where he has a huge advantage in choosing the right option. But if marth gets it he's really good at punishing anything mk can throw at him.

And dat pivot grab

tl;dr imo -1

 

[V]

Whoever has a better ground game wins. Our best option against mk is walking to shield + punish, which loses to dash grab, but pivot grab beats his dash approaches. You really need to play as safely as you can your first stock to scout out how the mk approaches. Walking and shield covers about 80% of his ground game, and pivot grab if you read a dash. If he's perfectly spacing dtilt and ftilt1 on your shield jump back OoS since there's not much you can do to it. If you get him offstage or in the air **** him as hard as you can. Punish laggy things with usmash. Dancing blade is your savior so use it wisely. Experience goes a long way against mk so play against as many good mk's as possible.

 

[Nike.]

That was a great post, V.
/thumbs up

 

[V]

Gracias

Playing friendlies with tyrant teaches you a lot.

 

[Life]

seriously do you guys realize how stupid it is for a character to have move that can be executed 6 frames OOS that instantaneously converts disadvantageous positions to advantageous positions?

I am about a billion years late on this, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut...

Spoiler

Anyway, I'm a Sonic main going Marth at my next tournament, anyone know what matchups I should be looking out for? (MK is obvious, we don't have a Diddy AFAIK and we usually only have D3 when TechChase comes, but what else?)

(Well, I guess that's the point of the OP though.)

 

[V]

Marth isn't the kinda character you can just pick up and play at a tournament, you need to know all the MUs :/

Here's a sample of the project I'm currently working on:

I. Matchups

1. Meta Knight

A. On stage

1. D-tilt
Beats: All tilts, all smashes, grab range
Loses to: Dash > shield, AD > DS, sidestep, SB (You can dash into DB after the hitbox comes out)

2. F-tilt
Beats: Everything except SB, sidestep, AD
Loses to: Shield, Dash > shield, SB

3. Fair
Beats: Whiffed moves, nair
Loses to: Jab, fsmash, retreated fair, retreated bair, shield, dash > shield,

4. Tornado
Beats: Any non-transcendant hitbox, sidestep, AD, roll
Loses to: Shield, counter, DS, DS oos, fsmash

5. GSL
Beats: approaching aerials
Loses to: Shield, sidestep, AD

6. Dash > Shield
Beats: Bad spacing, overcommitment, approaching aerials
Loses to: Grab, pivot grab

7. Dash Attack
Beats: Bad spacing, overcommitment, whiffed moves, sidestep, whiffed moves
Loses to: Pivot grab, Shield, counter, falling AC nair, dtilt, jab

8. F-smash
Beats: Whiffed moves, approaching aerials, froll (csticked)
Loses to: Dtilt, fsmash, SB, froll (charged), shield

B. Juggles

Meta Knight

1. Uair
Beats: AD, Dair, DB stall
Loses to: DI away > fair/nair, wavebounce SB

2. Tornado
Beats: AD, Aerials, DB stall
Loses to: FF AD (just above tornado), footstool

3. Shuttle Loop
Beats: Whiffed aerials, commitment
Loses to: AD (on read), fair (on read), counter (on read), dair (on read), DB (trades hits)

Marth

1. Uair
Beats: Dair camping (well timed), FF nair
Loses to: Tornado, FF AD

2. Utilt
Beats: FF nair
Loses to: FF AD, Tornado

Edgeguarding - Offstage

Meta Knight

1. FF Nair
Beats: Everything if Marth is too far away with no 2nd jump or is too low, DJ (on read), DB stall (when too close to the ledge), DS (at apex)
Loses to: Counter if Marth has 2nd jump and is close enough to DS after, DJ uair (risky)

2. Dair
Beats: Everything if Marth is too far away with no 2nd jump or is too low, DJ (on read), DB stall (when too close to the ledge), DS (at apex)
Loses to: Dolphin Slash (on read)

3. Shuttle Loop
Beats: Low recovery
Loses to: High recovery, counter (on read), DJ > AD

I'm not even finished with Meta Knight yet and besides what's above I was going to do summaries for each of the most common situations of a match (at neutral, juggles, ledgetraps, edgeguarding, and on a platform) for EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME.

The only problem is my partner I was testing this stuff with was getting disinterested so idk if I'll be able to complete the whole cast :/ I'll try to get at least the top tiers and even MU's done and maybe get brief summaries for the low tier characters.

Disclaimer: This was tested with a human opponent, not theorized based on frame data, but actually tested in real time to see what was reasonable to perform in each situation.

 

[-Jumpman-]

My man, knowing matchups is not knowing which moves beat which, but keep trying.

 

[Lord Chair]

note that spotdodge doesnt beat MK's ftilt

 

[V]

I said I wasn't fully done with MK yet... these are just fyi things. Ill do a MU summary as well.

@chair

Where does it say spotdodge beats ftilt...

Oops poor wording, I know it beats spotdodge, I meant it beats everything but SB, it also beats SD and AD.

 

[Enzo]

Edit: mk beats marth

 

[Nike.]

Can you imagine a flowchart for the Marth/MK MU? lol

So Marth made a mistake (or MK made a good read) and he's now getting *****.

• How does Marth safely land against MK and avoid constant juggles?

• How does Marth recover and get back on stage properly from the ledge (and with RCO lag)?

^ Those two scenario's are why I believe it's a -2.
I feel as though it's overcoming huge odds (more than a slight advantage lol) when MK has you on the ropes.

 

[Shaya]

Landing against MK is that hard? It's easier than ZSS, good snake set up, olimar.

You have a billion landing mix ups ><

 

[B.A.M.]

@ V: You should do it. A combination of the move by move analysis as well as a flow chart will serve any MU greatly regardless of what people say. Also remember to reference how certain moves a good in particular ranges. For example, dtilt may not be amazing heads up vs MK, however when you are position in his dash shield range it shuts not any dash approach. Not only that, but because of MKs air mobility he would usually have to jump in that space thats occupied by your tilts in order to actually hit you with an aerial. Also dtilt as great frame data and IASA frames, which mean the nado option can be covered on reaction for the most part.

@ Everyone On a side note, why dont more Marths use fsmash vs nado? It seems a ton of them just shield, up b, or counter. They cant really bait you when theyre doing that back and forth nado due to fsmashes range. Iono maybe its just me, but i would use fsmash more on nado if my opponent was being baity with it. Oh and also what are the scenarios that side b goes through nado? Ive seen certain instances where Mike will side b nados and it goes through or at times itll clash. Ive just been curious as to when that actually works and why.

 

[clowsui]

marth's hurtbox extends during fsmash, nado catches that a lot if you try to counter nado w/ fsmash. even if MK is not trying to poke the fact that nado has a continuous hitbox ****s you up

 

[Jeos]

From what I know, DB can't clash because it has transcendent priority, but can be beated by nado, hit mk as you or beat nado.
It's all depending of the timing and space of the DB