The Marth Matchup Ratio Thread (V2)

[PEACE7]

I think Dk beats marth not even. Rob vs marth is even idk about Wolf tho.

 

[-Jumpman-]

So Ramin, how does your list look?

 

[NH Cody]

I'm stiill wondering how TL got to even.

/lurking

TL wins at long distance because of projectiles and at mid range because of zair. Of course, Marth wins offstage because of aerials and in close combat because of DB/dtilt/fair. It is possible for Marth to get edgehogged offstage, too. Both characters can get momentum and rack up considerable damage. TL is also capable of punishing landings well with either grab, pivot grab, lingering projectiles, or nair OOS (in the case of falling fair on shield). They have about the same number of advantages in different situations so it makes sense that it is an even matchup. See Mikehaze vs Jerm or Hyro vs RoyR.

 

[Reizilla]

you mean that ooooooooooooooold *** ****? Marth just needs to camp TL when he gets a lead and it's a 100-0 matchup.

 

[NH Cody]

*rubs eyes*

Did I just read that right?

Marth...CAMPING...TOON LINK?

do explain.

 

[Reizilla]

TL's projectiles are easy enough to avoid at a distance and his approaches aren't really the best. Just sit back and avoid things.

 

[NH Cody]

...but Marth can't block every projectile for 8 minutes...lol

if he's standing there and shielding then TL could just wear the shield down, or even grab. I really don't think *timing out* works against TL unless it's like, Sonic. In theory Marth could play defensively but to say he could actually camp for the whole match is quite a stretch.

 

[etecoon]

if marth has a good lead he can camp, wtf would he just sit in his shield when TL's projectiles are so slow?

I don't necessarily think marth should camp, but if TL's answer to this is taking the risk of running up and grabbing then marth is obviously getting the better risk:reward on this exchange

 

[Reizilla]

Swatting projectiles works better. As does just using his speed to avoid stuff. It's not really timing out, it's putting TL into a position where he has to take risks to catch up. His projectiles don't really force Marth to approach. But if I have a good enough lead and TL wants to just throw things at me all day, I'm just going to avoid them all day.

 

[TheJerm]

I also beat royr, chaz, and nike (just yesterday). Haze is the only marth that beat me and that was to the very last hit.

Not saying TL wins the match up, but im pretty confident that its even.

 

[Nike.]

There was some stupid stuff in our money match, like the tether gimp that I simply shouldn't have fell for.
Your also simply a better player then I am, Your a top3 Tink while I'm not even a top10 Marth.

I also beat shadowpj in tourney RIGHT BEFORE our money match, who's also considered better than me.

I didn't know you beat Chaz, though lol. That's pretty legit.

 

[NearZzz]

There was some stupid stuff in our money match, like the tether gimp that I simply shouldn't have fell for.
Your also simply a better player then I am, Your a top3 Tink while I'm not even a top10 Marth.

I also beat shadowpj in tourney RIGHT BEFORE our money match, who's also considered better than me.

I didn't know you beat Chaz, though lol. That's pretty legit.

pj told me to post this

Please stop using my name in this argument i have never practiced with a single marth ever while you play santi and jerm i'm sure if i got to practice with roy r like the rest of houston marth wouldn't be a problem , the only time i played a marth was tiger at pound 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k71MAxu9Kj4 and i didn't play like this against you i actually played worse in singles due to being hungover. I also think math beats tl 55:45.

edit: tesh also beat me yesterday while im like 10-1 with him guess hes better than me now

 

[Nike.]

You make it sound like I play against Toon Link all the time.
Jerm lives in your city, I never play him outside of tourney.
Santi is retired. Only time I played him this year was the one tourney he went to lol.

They beat me because they are better players than I am.
In fact, that only helps support that Marth has a slight advantage since there forced to outplay him.
(I agree with Marth having the advantage btw)

Lol at losing to Tesh.

@ Jerm: I'll see you in the panel debate

 

[NearZzz]

havent you played jerm 3 times?

and santi 4 times?

You act as if i'm bad due to one loss, using words like well hes "considered better than me" and well they beat me because they're better players so does that make me bad because i lost to someone santi beat?
I remember why stopped placing so low cause when i lost to someone who wasn't jerm ,trela ect they would bring my name up everywhere, now you have ignited the fire and the rage of trela will fuel my blade as i destroy and lay waste to all who stand beforene feel my pain know lucarios aura diddys bananas and snakes grenades KNOW THEM.

 

[Nike.]

I didn't know that losing to legit toon link's in tourney was considered practice.

I apologize if I used "considered better than me" in that context, didn't mean to come off like that.

 

[TheJerm]

Mike Haze is solidly better than me, and I do believe I am able to beat him. Roy r was also better than me, and had beat trel bel right before I beat him. If it wasn't even, those players should **** me.

I've been trying to tell people it's even since I've started this game, and no marth has changed my mind. Even after playing the top ones.

 

[NearZzz]

enjoy the love only a man can give.

 

[NH Cody]

if marth has a good lead he can camp, wtf would he just sit in his shield when TL's projectiles are so slow?

I don't necessarily think marth should camp, but if TL's answer to this is taking the risk of running up and grabbing then marth is obviously getting the better risk:reward on this exchange

Swatting projectiles works better. As does just using his speed to avoid stuff. It's not really timing out, it's putting TL into a position where he has to take risks to catch up. His projectiles don't really force Marth to approach. But if I have a good enough lead and TL wants to just throw things at me all day, I'm just going to avoid them all day.

Honestly...this is really just theorycraft. Show me a video of a Marth ACTUALLY CAMPING a Toon Link successfully for long periods of time during the match without getting hit and then we'll talk more. Like...if this is true why didn't MikeHaze do this to Jerm, or Nike to Jerm, or RoyR, etc., for an *easy win* in a "100-0" matchup (really)?

I also beat royr, chaz, and nike (just yesterday). Haze is the only marth that beat me and that was to the very last hit.

Not saying TL wins the match up, but im pretty confident that its even.

Oh, forgive me, I forgot about those. I just thought of Hyro vs RoyR immediately because it was so hilarious and full of tech skill. Some of us even today try to go for that amazing usmash mindgame stuff (I've seen PJ go for this sometimes). At least we're on the same page here.

I'm not even a top10 Marth.

You should give yourself a little more credit. I can't even think of 10 really good Marth players off the top of my head lol. You are definitely one of the best Marth players, at least from what I've seen of your videos. Just learn your fthrow combos at 0% omg >_> (example: you fthrow sonic --> you fair when fsmash does more damage)

panel debate

I would've appreciated an invitation to a panel debate, especially since I was the one who first commented on the topic here...

The reason I'm interested is I'm pretty good at addressing specific issues in matchup discussions. If both sides give thoughts and opinions on the matchup, I believe it will benefit both sides and teach them more about their characters.

 

[Reizilla]

I camped Jerm and two-stocked him.

But he two-stocked me back when him and Xyro double teamed me

Was a fun set.

And you never see others camp because people are dumb and don't like to do it.

 

[Shaya]

The shaya who was well practised and knew how to camp won tournaments.

It's funny how people hate on being defensive (although I do agree it is better than aggressive) as no skill though... it takes a lot of work to avoid most character's everything - even ganondorfs (****ing Uair/side b/ff [ad] mix up is legit)

 

[Rizk18]

for 1st in the game now since is banned.

 

[Shaya]

Likely not.

 

[Nike.]

Phase 1 ends tonight, meaning every character panel is currently turning in which changes they want.
Marth Panel has submitted 3 Matchup's, which I think is the least amount for every single character lol.
Guess we were overall happy with the current chart as it is.

Bad news is that theres ALOT of characters that are going to submit a better ratio with Marth.
Like, enough to make me wanna fall on a knife.

If Shaya is okay with it (since he mods both Marth and Panel boards), I can post which matchups were submitted for changes.

 

[Reizilla]

ZSS, TL, Lucario would be my guess.

 

[Shaya]

mmm, I'm fine with us telling what match ups we're calling for change - other panel info shouldn't be revealed.

 

[Nike.]

Oh, that's what I meant lol.
Should've worded that better.

Changes from Marth Panel:

Character|V1.0 MU|V2.0 MU
|+2|+1
|±0|+1
| +1 | +2

 

[Reizilla]

Boo. I like mine better.

 

[Player-3]

i think wario is pretty even.

like, +0.5

 

[BZRK]

I like this chart. Marth has very nice match ups. I'm so psyched to know that MK is now gone. Only characters to worry about now are Diddy and D3.

 

[HFlash]

I don't think you can say that you have an advantage over a character that can out live you easily by 40-60% as in snake. That match up is pretty even.

 

[Shaya]

Every character is outlived by Snake (in like 90% of his match ups).

Just:

1. He doesn't have guaranteed ftilts from dthrow (roll away)
2. We zone him epicly
3. We combo him hard.

 

[Nike.]

Update:

First round of MU's are done.
We currently have 2 changes for v2

 

[Dakpo]

would this be the right spot to ask on match up thoughts?

 

[Nike.]

I just realized that this got stickied lol.

Technically yes, Dakpo, but inactivity in this thread is pretty common.
I try to post updates on the v2 panel discussions here whenever something important happens.

Marth Panel Update:
We're currently discussing 4 MU's right now.
Sheik is one of the character's we're discussing right now.
1 has come to a consensus and will become a change on the final chart.
The rest will (hopefully) be wrapped up by Monday and we'll start on the next 3-5 MU's after that.

 

[Shaya]

I just realized that this got stickied lol.

Stealth shaya is stealth.

 

[DellSmashman]

Snake should be +2. Sheik should stay +1 imo.

 

[Shaya]

We don't +2 snake.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I don't think any char +2s Snake.

 

[wonf]

o.O for me:

-1 Falco ( is really hard cg in the corner )
0 Mario
1 Diddy ( really fun MU and DB punish hard diddy recovery )
1 Bowser

 

[Zigsta]

^Listen to this man, Marth panelists!