The Marth Matchup Ratio Thread (V2)

[Shaya]

Yeah DB can hit an mk doing like a grounded-ish tornado.
DB1 can also be used "kinda" as if you would have fair'd it (if you could fair nado).

DB2up 'beats' nado though but its like a 15 frame start up. Awkward.

 

[Nike.]

Big update.
BBR MU-Chart v2 has officially started.
For the next few weeks, panels will be discussing which MU's to change.
The "argue with the other characters panel" phase will be after that, and will be a long process most likely.
I expect the public release to be october/november.

Marth Panel:

BBR Panelist | Nike | Shaya | Raziek |
Non-BBR Panelist | Mr-R | Kadaj | Neo | Mikehaze

I'll update this thread on major topics going on, but this is enough candy for now

 

[-Jumpman-]

Can you imagine a flowchart for the Marth/MK MU? lol

So Marth made a mistake (or MK made a good read) and he's now getting *****.

• How does Marth safely land against MK and avoid constant juggles?

• How does Marth recover and get back on stage properly from the ledge (and with RCO lag)?

^ Those two scenario's are why I believe it's a -2.
I feel as though it's overcoming huge odds (more than a slight advantage lol) when MK has you on the ropes.

Marth juggles MK just as easily.

 

[Shaya]

MK's rely on punishing marth's landing with grounded moves too much. Footstools are OVERLY OVERLY effective.

 

[C.J.]

Marth juggles MK just as easily.

Maybe not just as EASILY, but definitely just as effectively.

MK's rely on punishing marth's landing with grounded moves too much. Footstools are OVERLY OVERLY effective.

Thisthisthisthis

 

[Reizilla]

I've been using more footstools.

And update my discrepancies to:


MK: 0
Diddy: -2
DDD: -2
Falco: +1
Toon Link: +2
Lucario: 0
Pikachu: +2
ZSS: 0

 

[C.J.]

I've been using more footstools.

And update my discrepancies to:


MK: 0
Diddy: -2
DDD: -2
Falco: +1
Toon Link: +2
Lucario: 0
Pikachu: +2
ZSS: 0

You confuse me.

 

[Shaya]

-2 | -1 | 0 | +1 | +2 | +3
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Here is what I would call the 'pessimist' table.

Thought I'd post what I call the "pessimistic" table. My own opinion obviously, but I'd say there wouldn't be that many match ups that could be argued worse than any I've placed on here.
Except maybe neo saying we lose to zss.

Actually, that isn't true. I could argue Kirby as slight disadvantage, Gheb could argue yoshi as even, samus could be +1 only, etc.

I'll refrain from posting my optimistic table because I'm sure someone will come in here and not read anything and be like "ZOMG 2008" or some ****.

Also I find doing the table vertically to be uber sexy.

 

[Reizilla]

Optimistic Table:

Dtilt > Everything



How so, CJ?

 

[C.J.]

MK, Diddy, DDD, and Falco.

 

[Reizilla]

Diddy, wah wah broken character, so many more options, wah wah.

DDD, wah wah, one grab-off stage-edge guard-stock loss, wah.

Falco, eh, maybe it's more personal. I just don't see how it's even.

o

metagame minute tho

Falco > Marth


MK, everyone just sucks at the matchup and there are no really dedicated Marths aside from Mike that really take advantage of everything Marth has, in general.

 

[C.J.]

Diddy, wah wah broken character, so many more options, wah wah.

DDD, wah wah, one grab-off stage-edge guard-stock loss, wah.

Falco, eh, maybe it's more personal. I just don't see how it's even.

o

metagame minute tho

Falco > Marth


MK, everyone just sucks at the matchup and there are no really dedicated Marths aside from Mike that really take advantage of everything Marth has, in general.

Diddy's not that bad/doesn't have any more options than you do (probably less). It just takes FORVER to get good at the MU.

DDD is an even MU in every possible way. He lives longer, but we juggle him forever. We both **** each other at the ledge. DDD has a great grab, but we have some of the best tools in the game for avoiding the grab. If each game isn't taking 6-7 minutes, you're either a lot better than your opponent (or vice-versa), or you're not playing the MU correctly.

However, DDD does have the CG to put us to the ledge. How often you fall into that will greatly affect your view of the MU. We can put him there almost as often as he puts us there. However, he can definitely do it easier which is why be BARELY beats Marth.

Falco, idk. I feel like the gameplay between the two is even. However, Falco will be amazingly hard-pressed for any kind of comeback, while Marth has the ability for a comeback due to his throw gayness for kills. Idk, as far as fighting is concerned Falco beats us in long range and outboxes us. However Marth has the tools to make it mid-range with his great dash speed/angle. Just seems super even. But w/ the grab shenanigans, idk. Make it harder to call. I suppose I can see it being +1.

MK/Marth is *essentially* even. It comes down to MK's juggle/gimp game vs Marth's GR->dair/tipper fsmash, imo. In practice, and theory, MK will get his side of that off more often than Marth will. As a result I view it as -1 for that reason only.

 

[Remzi]

Thought I'd post what I call the "pessimistic" table. My own opinion obviously, but I'd say there wouldn't be that many match ups that could be argued worse than any I've placed on here.
Except maybe neo saying we lose to zss.

Actually, that isn't true. I could argue Kirby as slight disadvantage, Gheb could argue yoshi as even, samus could be +1 only, etc.

I'll refrain from posting my optimistic table because I'm sure someone will come in here and not read anything and be like "ZOMG 2008" or some ****.

Also I find doing the table vertically to be uber sexy.

Did you literally just subtract one from every matchup?

 

[Shaya]

No.

Snake went from +1 to -1, for example.
As did Olimar

 

[Nike.]

Funny Development.
Marth Panel has the most thread views after two days.

1. Marth - 439
2. Pikachu - 265
3. Zero Suit Samus - 242
4. Metaknight - 223

****.

 

[Lord Chair]

may have something to do with stuff like gallax being a hero

 

[C.J.]

may have something to do with stuff like gallax being a hero

qu e?

 

[Lord Chair]

srry man only for the cool guys who are part of the panels

 

[Lord Chair]

Holy **** i just randomed 83 and i got farfetchd omgwtf

 

[makoforce]

Lets discuss snake please. I have alot of trouble with this

 

[C.J.]

Mako, give me vids. Then I'll *probably* help

 

[-Jumpman-]

Mako, give me vids. Then I'll *probably* help

He wants to discuss the matchup, not his vids.

 

[C.J.]

Wants to discuss the MU because he's having trouble with it.
You can see what specifically he having trouble with via vids.
Vids will help tell him how to play the MU better (his actual goal)

Unless he wants the typical marth board answer to MU discussions:
FH fair is safe, DS ftilt1 on shield, don't be afraid of nades they're there to control space but probably won't hurt you that much, **** him offstage, juggle him, don't get utilted.

Not very helpful imo.

 

[Shaya]

You'd be surprised how "simple rules" for playing a match up helps you improve a lot.

 

[Nike.]

Slightly saddening news:
There's up to 9 other character panels that might argue their ratio with Marth from +2 -> +1 or +1 ->±0.
Appearently alot of smashboards thinks that Marth sucks lol...

 

[C.J.]

Tbh, I think Marth has a lot more even MUs than originally thought.

 

[Jeos]

I think that is mostly because not that much people use marth, and for the ones that use him, have not yet reached the peak of marth's potential.

 

[Reizilla]

I'm guessing Warios are trying to say -1 and that Olimar, Lucario, ZSS, Kirby are trying to say even, while Es4m, and the Foxes and Pits are just being dumb again.

 

[Lord Chair]

I'm guessing Warios are trying to say -1 and that Olimar, Lucario, ZSS, Kirby are trying to say even, while Es4m, and the Foxes and Pits are just being dumb again.

LOL SO SPOT ON garble

 

[Kuro~]

Lol no. Pits think it's -1 still.

Ik foxes have like NO representation from their best players as far as i've heard. Like the only remotely "top" fox on is trump cuz the panel had 0 ppl so he went up for it. It makes me sad that Nakat and trevonte aren't participating. or even M@v.

 

[Shaya]

I'm technically running the fox panel atm.
No signs of me as it's sole member to push for that being even

 

[NAKAT]

I got invited to the Fox panel and never heard anything after that if there was a link provided with the thread if there is one I would have gave input like a week ago.

 

[Shaya]

Did you try joining the user group?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310032 is the thread.

 

[NAKAT]

Did you try joining the user group?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310032 is the thread.

NAKAT, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah... did you join the user group from your user CP under group memberships?

 

[Nike.]

Our three ±0 matchups from mid tier characters.



How do other Marth's feel about these MU's?
Anyone believe that Marth actually wins/loses any of them, or is even an accurate ratio?

 

[Reizilla]

I'm stiill wondering how TL got to even.

 

[Haze~]

Marth vs MK is -1 imo but in my accurate opinion it's 58-42 or 57-43 Lol

 

[Nike.]

Marth Panel Update

• Neo has been removed with Anaky replacing him.

• 2 discrepancies have been firmly established and will be submitted for debate against the opposing panels. (I'm sure you guys can guess which ones lol)

• There's 6 MU's that have a 50/50 split (more or less) that are currently under discussion.

• 7 discrepancies in which only one panelist has elected for a change.
  EX: I'm the only one to elect a change for Zss to ±0 (I'm alright with that public, obv not leaking the opinions of others).

 

[DellSmashman]

You guys should argue for that +2 on Snake lol. And whoever says Kirby is even is crazy.... I feel Pikachu has a better chance of going 0. ROB is most definitely even. Not sure about everything else though.