The Lucas General Discussion

[PSI Nexus]

Mekos, you talk like I don't know what I'm doing... And if that's not what you mean, your post comes off as condescending.

Everything Mekos says seem condescending. His framing doesn't help. Also, mastering the basics can only take you so far as well - any and every character can do it. A Metaknight mastering the basics will still always be the best compared to everyone else trying the same thing.

 

[T-block]

what makes b-air better than n-air? i was under the impression that you don't gain the ability to influence your horizontal speed until after aerial is finished anyways. that's why we use the double jump, no?

mekos, "buffering DI" isn't just a terms error. what you're describing is actually completely different from what really needs to happen ._. in any case, i don't doubt that you can survive well - but you can still survive well without fully understanding the mechanics behind it all.

 

[Mekos]

lolololololol I understand them I just obviously can't explain it well. I feel it when I play.
Like I don't know frame data in smash but I surely know which moves are best to use in various situations against every character.


Well for anyone who can understand what I'm saying please feel free to take advantage of the advice!

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

I've been using Nair for the past few years and my DI's pretty good. If I get hit up I just hold to the side and then Nair really quick, then keep down and to the side. It works wonders. Then when I get hit to the side I hold up and Nair. If I get hit really straight horizontally I Fair so I can double jump right after, but then again I use Nair a lot for that too. I guess it just depends on whatever you feel the most comfortable with.

And my skype's Faemau5_5ever for the group

 

[Mekos]

Do whatever u think is best and what yer comfortable with.

I was just giving my personal opinion on the matter and advice.

 

[Esotera]

Mastering the basics can only take you so far? Mastering the basics is what makes the meta the meta... All the advanced techniques and strategies come from mastery of the basics...

 

[Jimmy?]

At top levels of play (the meta deciding levels of play), it's pretty much assumed that everyone has those basics down pat, isn't it?

So yeah, you need to have the basics down, but that's not what defines the meta....

 

[Esotera]

Fundamentals=basics
fundamentals let you function at the top tier.

 

[Jimmy?]

Yes, we're both in agreement on that. Mastering the basics of the game lets someone play on the top level of competition.

But the ATs and tools available to the character are what change the meta. The basics just decide which players are being taken into consideration when you begin to think about match ups or whatever else. If we just assume the basics are mastered (as we should for all players capable of playing at top levels), then the results that follow should be a result of a gap in character ability rather than player skill (unless the two people playing are of obviously disparate levels, but.... yeah).

 

[Mekos]

My man Eso understanding my explanations!

At the highest level of play most of the time in many things in life, it is a battle between who doesn't choke with their fundamentals.

FPS is the best way I can explain this(I used to be semi-pro in halo 2). The most basic thing in halo 2 is getting your shot down(aim).
In clutch situations where that one kill decides the game, an player can choke and miss their shot. And lose the game for their team at that one moment as it turns the whole game around and the other team gains control/momentum of the match.

I'm telling u. Anybody can compete at the top level but u first have to master the basics. I haven't stated all the basics. There are many and I have noticed most players have not mastered them. Diing is my favorite example. MOST people do NOT Di correctly/well and die around 90% often.

Just because you can do ATs for a character does not mean u have reached a certain level in the game. Mastering the fundamentals is key.

 

[Jimmy?]

I don't know if you're misunderstanding me or something, because I feel like this is going in circles, but I'm not arguing with the importance of mastering fundamentals. Those come into play before any ATs or any tricks your character has.

But that doesn't just equalize differences between characters, the ATs and other tools available to your character change how match ups play out and change the potential of that character. Even if you can beat MK, it doesn't change the fact that the tools available to MK are better than the tools available to Lucas. Obviously, if the MK doesn't have a mastery of the fundamentals, he probably won't win.

But since the match ups, the metagame, and all the things that matter when considering what makes a character "good" should all be determined on the highest level of play, we should assume that the players both have an equal mastery of the basics. This game doesn't rely solely on player skill, certain characters can just do things better than others.

I don't remember seeing anyone in this thread arguing that "bad" characters couldn't compete at high levels or beat characters that are better than them, the only thing I've been trying to say is that Lucas isn't a good character, and you're trying to refute that by saying that you're a very good player. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Mekos]

We are going in circles. I understand what you are saying and AGREE with you.

I am just saying that he is better than LOW tier. He belongs in MID tier. That is what I have been saying. He isn't a "bad" character. He isn't great. He is okay tho. Many people claim that lucas is trash and that is not true.

U are saying bottom line lucas on paper is a "bad" character. I understand and disagree with that.

 

[Karnu]

Didn't they place Lucas in low tier because of the grab release?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

There's a multitude of reasons why he's "low tier." Grab release is one of them, but it also has to do with his general tools. It can be debated whether or not the tools can be used to be mid tier or low tier. I'm not going to debate over that, because the realm of the subjective is not my area of expertise, nor should I dabble in it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think one of Lucas' biggest problems is reliably killing at 120%. Up smash and forward smash are amazing KO options, but good luck landing them unless your opponent air dodges into you.

Other than those two moves, none of Lucas' moves kill until 160%, even on lightweights such as Zelda. (Minus maybe up air. I hate that move. Y U SO STRONG HEADBUTT )

Edit: That's just my opinion btw! I'm no Lucas expert.

 

[Esotera]

Dthrow kills on lighter characters 135-150%, dsmash is also somewhat reliable, but you won't be a getting a kill with it every match. And as you said, fresh upair. It will kill around 150 i think though, not sure on this percentage.

 

[Karnu]

I think one of Lucas' biggest problems is reliably killing at 120%. Up smash and forward smash are amazing KO options, but good luck landing them unless your opponent air dodges into you.

Other than those two moves, none of Lucas' moves kill until 160%, even on lightweights such as Zelda. (Minus maybe up air. I hate that move. Y U SO STRONG HEADBUTT )

Edit: That's just my opinion btw! I'm no Lucas expert.

Fsmash doesn't have a lot of lag though, I was it more then up now.

You would be surprised now, I hardly use Usmash.

 

[Esotera]

Usmash is only for hard reads and dtilt lock follow up. And to push off the ledge, too.

 

[Jamwa]

once i get someone to 70-80% ish i just try to jab lock them lol. lucas' pummel is amazing too.
@Esotera i think down-grab is stronger than up-grab? im not sure, but you can kill some heavies around 140-150% if im not mistaken

 

[Esotera]

edited meant to say dthrow. Ty Jamwa. Do you jab lock after a dair?

 

[Jamwa]

edited meant to say dthrow. Ty Jamwa. Do you jab lock after a dair?

yes, i space with that and try to bait them into it, then ff jab lock hehe. or i reverse magnet pull > jab lock.... loljks im not fae

 

[Mekos]

I used to have a hard time killing top players before the snaking. Snaking allows me to get inside well.

Before I struggled with getting inside.

 

[Esotera]

Need more skype contacts! Mekos, I sent you a request a few minutes ago.

Gimme yo skype so we can actually discuss things

 

[Mekos]

Lucas is one of the few characters that kinda has "combos". Dair to fmash, Dair to ftilt, Dair to jab,
nair to up air.

With that said if u can get inside you can kill. Lucas kills most characters fine but struggles against killing heavy weights like DK and DDD.

What's yer skype name?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Who do you get dair to fsmash combos on?

 

[Mekos]

Alot of people and at high level play as well.

It seems to depend on the % they are at as well as my spacing of the dair. Sorry I don't have the objective data for u.

Also u know u don't have to jab lock. U can immediately smash. So if they miss the tech that is also a dair to fsmash.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think I'll work on testing that when I get the time. Check when it'll work.

 

[Esotera]

thomas.m.carter Mekos

 

[Chuee]

Who do you get dair to fsmash combos on?

I think it works on spacies.

 

[KoozyK]

i came here, looked around and remembered why i stopped posting and whatnot. ill be back in a few weeks again. maybe

 

[Esotera]

I don't understand... We're actually trying to get **** done and you don't want part of it?

 

[Jamwa]

I don't understand... We're actually trying to get **** done and you don't want part of it?

thats not what he said, but w/e leave him be

Im 'Jamwaa' on skype or 'jamie cagorski', however ill probably only be msging.

Mekos i find that the pivot grab on lucas helps against an approaching dedede for some nice pummel dmg into a dgrab kill or just a REALLY lucky bgrab trajectory lol (does grab trajectory depend on the direction the opponent di's in when he is released or is it random?).

also how do you use the snake? i only use it for mind games because im not sure how to apply it

 

[~Nasty~]

I'll comment on all the stuff that was said a few pages back when I get the chance. Super busy with life right now. But rPSI, he's talking about when dair isn't strong enough to shoot them into the ground for a jab lock setup. Rather it bounces them off the ground, and if they bounce up off the ground, he already buffered the fsmash, so they get hit. Been doing that since '08. It's old but still works for whatever reason. My only reasonable explanation is that it's because the person caught in the dair isn't holding up to DI it.. you know, those fundamentals mekos keeps talking about... It could also deal with how stale/fresh the dair is.

I also want to add that Jimmy seems to be the only one here arguing with logic. Kudos to you, bro. Just remember, there are two kinds of people that argue; those that know what they're talking about, and those that yell "no no no you're wrong!"

 

[Jimmy?]

I also want to add that Jimmy seems to be the only one here arguing with logic. Kudos to you, bro. Just remember, there are two kinds of people that argue; those that know what they're talking about, and those that yell "no no no you're wrong!"

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[Mekos]

I honesty don't know how to take Nasty's post. But I'll be the bigger man and just ignore it.

@Jamwa - I use it mostly for spacing. Spacing is so crucial to my gameplay. It stops the momentum of your short jump. With that in mind you can land different places than if you were to short jump air dodge. The difference is very small but allows for tighter control of where u wanna land. This is good for me since my gameplay revolves around reading my opponent and spacing. Notice when I play I'm just outside of my opponents attack alot of times and then am able to punish accordingly.

And I'll say this guys. My posts are not objective. Never claimed they were. I think Nasty is implying im not using logic or whatever. All I am doing is telling you my opinion on matters and what I do to be successful. If you don't agree that is fine but for those who will or seem to get butt hurt I honestly don't care. This is just my opinion take it or leave it. Feel free to disagree and have a different opinion. That won't hurt my feelings. Jimmy had a different view on the matter and we discussed it. There is nothing wrong with that.

@Koozy - I understand bro. But I like some people in here. So I'll stick it out.

 

[Govikings07]

the dair fsmash combo works i think on every character. i do it all the time the only thing that is different is the timing on the fsmash. heavier characters take a lil longer to get up from the trip lock so you have to hesitate on the smash on characters like dk and ddd. but with bigger characters i find it easier to get this.

i would recommend learning the trip lock after getting the dair to a 1 or 2 dtilts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UD8iazuLXA

6:35 is the regular combo but 6:52 is the continuous dtilt :D

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think he was talking about without the d-tilt lock

 

[Govikings07]

adding lil more information wont hurt

 

[Mekos]

Here is a good set showing why I snake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzxv1fLpzIc

Peach is a very tuff character for lucas imo. Basically, all of her moves beat lucas' moves. The commentator says I am using it to confuse my opponent but this is not true. I am using it for perfect spacing while watching the peach very closly. When I have the correct spacing I move in to attack. If I can make my attack come out before the peach's then I will be fine. But if we attack at the same time her moves will beat mine.

All about spacing.

 

[jd00824]

1. Mekos, your mastery of Lucas is pretty darn impressive....

2. On a random note, anyone have any tips on ROB.......he frustrates me to no end