The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[O'chunks]

Aren't we going to disscuss about stages, or did I miss that already?

 

[#HBC | J]

stage discussion can start but I am not ending this MU till PF says what he wants on Luigi >_>

Okay so gogogogogogogogo!

Stay away from stages that are air Based and try for stages where you can camp your butt off. Off the top of my head I would think of something like this.

Strike: YI, BF
Counterpick: FD, PS2, PS1
Ban: Norfair, *air stages uhhhh lol I only ban Norfair cuz a couple weegees have ***** me there x-x*

I would not advice cping Brinstar here due to the fact Luigi is really good in the air.

Edit: New section added to the MU simplified chart. Tons of stuff in there if you haven't checked already ^_^

 

[Chuee]

Pf hurry up.
ffffff

 

[solecalibur]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203418

Zss boards are talking about yeah

 

[#HBC | J]

Now you'd think im bumping this for our MU discussion. Nope =/

The jiggly boards are discussing Lucas and would like input. ^_^

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10829746#post10829746

 

[Noobicidal]

Over at the Jigglypuff boards, we're currently discussing the Jigglypuff/Lucas match up. It would be much appreciated if you kids and your awesome hair came over to help us.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282172

Thanks in advance for your time.

Edit: ****ing ninja'd.

 

[#HBC | J]

I'm postponing the summary of the Luigi MU till PF says his stuff. I'm putting a temp MU number till blahblahblah.

So how about we move on? I wanna keep us going on. Bowser's next ;3

Bowser's contacted and thread's been updated.

 

[B!squick]

Don't get grabbed and be very passive aggressive. UpB OoS is great and can even kill at higher percents, but it has no follow unless you get REALLY unlucky and the knockback sends you straight into the ground as if you just got DThrowed by Snake. It's really rare, but super bad if that happens.

Don't get grabbed, watch out for Klaw, though PK Fire should be enough to keep a Klaw hoppin' Bowser at bay.

And... don't get grabbed. It's bad enough that every other character besides Ness gets frame advantage on Lucas, but Bowser has double the time everyone else has. So Bowser is basically his own Ice Climbers.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Bowser has 20 frames of advantage when he ground releases you that means he can Jab, Dash Attack, D-tilt, F-tilt, F-air, and of course, as on everyone else, Dash Grab. Oh and avoid being grabbed oh hills. He can infinite us on them. So yeah, definitely strike Yoshi's Island and Lylat.

 

[Cassius.]

There's not much more to say than don't get grabbed, lol. If you want to put damage on while not having the fear of being grabbed (although it should be in the back of your mind) you should just be "passive agressive" like JayDeth said. You have to be really patient if you want to avoid grabs, because if Bowser gets it, we all know that'll be a problem for you. Space your aerials well, just outside of his pissy grab range, and don't directly attack his shield unless you want to eat an Up-B OoS

Besides that, uh...PKThunder to bother Bowser offstage...idk much else besides that :l

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

When gimping him, just go for the bair/dair spike or PK Fire gimp --> edgehog if he's forced to use UpB to recover. Hell, even thunderslide gimps are viable gimping Bowser, just make sure you know how to snap to the ledge when doing so and not just killing both of you. If you plan on PKT'ing him to gimp for whatever reason, hit him with the tail, the head will just vanish if it touches him at the top. Dthrow doesn't kill until aout 170% with good DI, so don't bother staling it early trying to get a kill at like 150%.

Also, juggle him with PKT and punish landing airdodges with Utilt/Nair/Jab.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Try not to n-air his shield that much. Since the buffered SHNair (which most people use) has at least -6 frame advantage, Bowser should be able to up-b it, but that also requires him to be near frame perfect, so even though he may have trouble punishing it sometimes, just be careful when n-air'ing his shield.

 

[Chuee]

You should be able to air release out of his grab, but even out of air release he has good follow ups.
Space your aerials, he has a plethora of OoS options if you space incorrectly.
Use PKT when he's offstage, he can cancel it with his up-b but it sorta forces him to use it.
idk much else it's Bowser's adv. though, more later.

 

[#HBC | J]

I'm sorry but i do not know too much about this MU to state an opinion.

This is one ill be quiet on till stages. But bowser is easy to juggle.(iirc because of his horrid Dair). And gimping bowser isn't that hard =/

But yea that's all i think i can say =x

 

[-LzR-]

I kinda fell of my chair when I read the Meta Knight MU.

He uses his glide
-PK freeze travels the fastest horizontally, so I would advise that. He'll have to drop gilde or get hit. Both put him in baf positions.
- getting hit: He'll be sussceptible to a zapjump pk fire edgeguard KO.
Not getting hit: He won't have his glide and will be quite far away from the stage. He also should have wasted 1-3 jumps at this point.

What am I reading?
PKfreeze? On MetaKnight? Seriously, you are not going to win against MetaKnight by doing that.

 

[~Nasty~]

I kinda fell of my chair when I read the Meta Knight MU.

He uses his glide
-PK freeze travels the fastest horizontally, so I would advise that. He'll have to drop gilde or get hit. Both put him in baf positions.
- getting hit: He'll be sussceptible to a zapjump pk fire edgeguard KO.
Not getting hit: He won't have his glide and will be quite far away from the stage. He also should have wasted 1-3 jumps at this point.

What am I reading?
PKfreeze? On MetaKnight? Seriously, you are not going to win against MetaKnight by doing that.

Well we are currently discussing the Boswer MU atm, but since you brought it up, i believe that was originally brought up as a means of distracting the mk and just making it a bit more complicated to get back to the stage rather than just a free easy ride back. MK can cancel PKT w/ his glide attack so i believe this is another reason why it was brought up. I am not 100% sure if these are the right reasons, just in my opinion this is why it was mentioned.

 

[~Nasty~]

So how about those stages?

 

[#HBC | J]

yea stage time because this discussion is not really gonna see much else.

this summary is gonna be a hard summary to write up. I actually wanna comment on something about this MU even though i prefer going ZSS for this.

anyways all i know is Ban YI atm.

 

[Chuee]

Ban a neutral, Bowser doesn't have many good CPs.

 

[Tokaio]

Ban Castle Siege imo.

 

[#HBC | J]

Alright time to take a crack at this. Lucas vs. Bowser

Now i'm just gonna go with some stuff I know about Bowser.

- Bowser is a very super defensive character. He cannot really handle a character that can camp against him because it forces him to approach and he really does not have a good approach game at all. Really this is a MU of who approaches first is gonna lose. Both characters are gonna have to play their top defensive game.
- Bowser is kindof really easy to gimp once you learn how. Following him offstage is the best option like FAE said because iirc his UpB cancels the head of PKT. Also PKF is a good option on the edge and dsmashing the ledge.
- Don't get ****ing grabbed! God dang >_> He has sooo many moves he can use to abuse poor Lucas afterwards it is ridiculous.
- Bowser can be juggled realy easily due to the fact he is heavy and has a HORRID Dair. Uair stringing and PKT chasing is definetely advised.
- One grab at high percentage and Lucas is dead. Just plain and simple.
- Space your Aerial moves since that is where you will be wanting to fight him or you will get clawed or if you are in his grab range (again it's not that good) you will be eating one of those.
- UpB OoS is a pain in the butt and hurts alot.
- Utilt Juggling(?)
- Get Bowser offstage.
- If you don't get grabbed this MU is very even to Lucas favor because he can mess with Bowser in the air and offstage. Just stay away from Bowser. Seriously do not go near him MAKE HIM COME TO YOU. (you getting the point of this yet?)
- Ban YI because this stage was practically made for him.

Overall this MU is 45:55 Bowser wins to pretty even. If it wasn't for Sakurai being such a meanie bleck. Just gotta learn to play PATIENTLY.

Well that was my stab at it. I'm so sorry but that's all I can think of x_x"

 

[Chuee]

^^
Good but mention that we have trouble killing Bowser if we don't get a gimp.

 

[#HBC | J]

Alright come on let's finish up this stage discussion so we can move on please.

 

[Chuee]

take him to Brinstar or Frigate.
Ban FD.
...
Profit

 

[rPSIvysaur]

take him to Brinstar.

and he counterpicks MK.
GG

I've stopped CP'ing people to Brinstar because they just go MK.

 

[#HBC | J]

Take him to PS2, Brinstar (shhhh it's a good cp against him nonetheless), Norfair, or Frigate.

Ban YI or FD. Neutrals are Bowser's friend :3.

 

[O'chunks]

I honestly think that this matchup is even imo. Our gimping is equal to his grab relase on us. Bowser's recovery sucks vertically and is pretty much dead if spiked (or spike to footstool at low percentages.) The same goes for us on the grab release he has because if Lucas isn't careful, he can get a lot of damage racked up on him quicky. His ground is as good as ours (or probably better by a tiny bit) but we're overall faster. It's better to play him offstage a bit, but Lucas's air games hinders him due to range, but Bowser can't do much offstage, even a PK Fire can stop his recovery. Also tailwhipping works just like FAE said.


As for stages, most neutrals such as BF and FD help him. On BF he can stay under a platform and just utilt. We can't do much about that unless i'm not thinking hard enough. FD is perfect for his grab release tricks. Certain CPs like Norfair, Delfino, and RC (if you really want to risk it) are good stages to take Bowser imo. That's all I have for now.

 

[#HBC | J]

Alright Bowser summary is up and the MU was left at 45:55-50:50. And we are now moving onto Wolf.

Let the discussion being and the Wolves have been contacted.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Vs wolf you have many options....

Wolf spams bair(its his best move) which leaves him with 2 killing moves dsmash and fair...watch out for fair since you can use it to bait people into dsmash

MU wise:
Space yourself and watch out for his shine it ***** your projectiles and has invincibility frames and is a great move. When getting him offstage ALWAYS grab the ledge and force him to get on since he has mad lag when over/up Bing. He can also grab release to fsmash and dsmash

 

[DarkLouis331]

Be a little creative with your recovery in the Wolf matchup. Some Wolves will try to gimp you with shine if you fall offstage. I know I try to.

And yeah...don't get grabbed. lol

 

[Kole]

Wolf doesn't have GR -> Dsmash on us does he? I know he does on Ness but I think Lucas slides a little too far.

 

[tekkie]

lucas's mixups are intense. i play against Zman sometimes; he's a beast. be creative, punish well with dair and fair, watch out for bair.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Lucas is a ****** character. I've played this matchup a lot with Pinky Sexy Fresh. SDI up whenever he does Full hop Dair. I'm just waiting for Pink Fresh to post his matchup synopsis.

Wolf doesn't have GR -> Dsmash on us does he? I know he does on Ness but I think Lucas slides a little too far.

If you DI the GR then you can be Dsmash'd. Regularly though, only Fsmash is guaranteed and maybe Ftilt/Dtilt? I just go for Fsmash.

 

[Deleted member]

Be a little creative with your recovery in the Wolf matchup. Some Wolves will try to gimp you with shine if you fall offstage. I know I try to.

And yeah...don't get grabbed. lol

^This. Shine gimping is made easy when it comes to Lucas and Ness's PKT2. Luckily, Lucas does have other options for recovering, so make good use of the zap jump and magnet pull in this matchup.

 

[Chuee]

Wolf has a Dsmash out of GR, but he has to step forward a slight bit before he dsmashes.

 

[Ishiey]

I wish I had something to say, but I really can't think of much... it sounds horrible, but the main point of my argument (that I'd be too lazy to really back up atm) would end up being that Lucas can't adequately counter well-spaced SHFF bairs =/ Pretty lame argument, huh. I've never played a top Lucas but I have a decent amount of matchup experience, and I've never felt at a disadvantage unless I was getting SERIOUSLY outplayed. Personally, I'd say that Wolf falls under the category of a Lucas counter, 6:4 or worse.

Watch out for Lucas' FHFF dair > dtilt lock > fsmash, it's a common kill setup that's very good until you know about it, because then you can avoid the dair or DI out of the dair or tech the landing, take your pick. Gimping Lucas... idk, I wouldn't go for shine gimps unless you have a clear shot on the projectile only. His upB has massive range so you're usually better off grabbing the ledge and punishing from there or bairing when he's offstage to rack up damage imo. Also, zap jumping and ****, yeah I'd say a good Lucas shouldn't really be getting shine gimped, maybe by the stage if it's something with an awkward ledge sweetspot.

Also, I've had Wolf's jab cancel out Lucas' PKT2. Basically useless, but I feel that it's important to point that out :3 I'm interested in what PinkFresh has to say though, maybe I'll post more after he stops by and says some stuff.

 

[~Nasty~]

Lucas should not be getting shine gimped. Wolf's best option would be to Bair camp Lucas when he's off stage. Wolf should just grab the ledge and Bair camp, it'll be a ***** to get back onto the stage, especially if you hit Lucas out of his DJ.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas won't be getting "gimped" but he will be taking a lot of damage.

 

[~Nasty~]

^ That's exactly what i was saying.

 

[#HBC | J]

woooow great job everyone at the input so far! This is the most active MU we have had since Fox/Peach.

I'll take a stab at this myself when i get a laptop

Also Seagull we gotta have friendlies next tourny we are both at and i can really try this MU more ;D