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The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic
- Thread starter #HBC | J
- Start date
T-block
B2B TST
CP'ing what I wrote in Jiggs discussion with some revision:
<hr />
This matchup is haaaaard for Jigglypuff.
The most obvious thing going for Jiggs is that if Lucas gets off stage it's very likely Jiggs can take the stock, or at least tack on 40+%. Lucas has good recovery in that he can usually make it back to the stage, but against a character like Jiggs he's going to take a lot of damage for it. If he's at low percents you want to keep hitting him to force him to use PKT until you're in a position to hit the head and gimp. Dash attack is a good option to keep in mind if he's near the ledge - I've hit him out of tether before.
On the ground we get beat pretty hard, but that's nothing new. Good jab combo, fast f-tilt, etc. I don't know why people are giving d-smash so much mention though. If you're playing this matchup like you should (not aggressively, playing carefully and baiting), you shouldn't be running into d-smash. I'm more scared of f-smash tbh.
In the air I think it's actually fairly even. Lucas has good air speed (10th in the game), so although Jiggs still beats him in top air speed, the advantage is not as significant as in other matchups. Lucas also accelerates to his top air speed faster than Jiggs does. His f-air has more range than most of our aerials except possibly our b-air. His d-air also has deceptive range, and can autocancel out of a fullhop, making it very hard for us to punish. He also has a much faster fall speed, which when combined with that d-air gives him the vertical spacing advantage too.
Against Lucas, my killing move is almost always f-air... it's really the only reliable thing we have, outside of a dash attack or DACUS read. Lucas on the other hand has no trouble killing us - even f-tilt and f-air kill Jiggs at decent percents.
This is definitely a matchup that becomes a lot easier when you don't have to approach. He seems to always have an answer to any sort of approach we have. We also have to watch out for pivot grabs - the way Jiggs has to approach leaves her fairly susceptible to them.
If we had to assign numbers I'd say 60:40 Lucas' favour.
<hr />
This was written for Jiggs players, not Lucas players, so it tends to focus more on what Lucas can do. Of course, if there's anything inaccurate in that post, correct me.
<hr />
This matchup is haaaaard for Jigglypuff.
The most obvious thing going for Jiggs is that if Lucas gets off stage it's very likely Jiggs can take the stock, or at least tack on 40+%. Lucas has good recovery in that he can usually make it back to the stage, but against a character like Jiggs he's going to take a lot of damage for it. If he's at low percents you want to keep hitting him to force him to use PKT until you're in a position to hit the head and gimp. Dash attack is a good option to keep in mind if he's near the ledge - I've hit him out of tether before.
On the ground we get beat pretty hard, but that's nothing new. Good jab combo, fast f-tilt, etc. I don't know why people are giving d-smash so much mention though. If you're playing this matchup like you should (not aggressively, playing carefully and baiting), you shouldn't be running into d-smash. I'm more scared of f-smash tbh.
In the air I think it's actually fairly even. Lucas has good air speed (10th in the game), so although Jiggs still beats him in top air speed, the advantage is not as significant as in other matchups. Lucas also accelerates to his top air speed faster than Jiggs does. His f-air has more range than most of our aerials except possibly our b-air. His d-air also has deceptive range, and can autocancel out of a fullhop, making it very hard for us to punish. He also has a much faster fall speed, which when combined with that d-air gives him the vertical spacing advantage too.
Against Lucas, my killing move is almost always f-air... it's really the only reliable thing we have, outside of a dash attack or DACUS read. Lucas on the other hand has no trouble killing us - even f-tilt and f-air kill Jiggs at decent percents.
This is definitely a matchup that becomes a lot easier when you don't have to approach. He seems to always have an answer to any sort of approach we have. We also have to watch out for pivot grabs - the way Jiggs has to approach leaves her fairly susceptible to them.
If we had to assign numbers I'd say 60:40 Lucas' favour.
<hr />
This was written for Jiggs players, not Lucas players, so it tends to focus more on what Lucas can do. Of course, if there's anything inaccurate in that post, correct me.
HailCrest
Smash Journeyman
10charssssCP'ing what I wrote in Jiggs discussion with some revision:
<hr />
This matchup is haaaaard for Jigglypuff.
The most obvious thing going for Jiggs is that if Lucas gets off stage it's very likely Jiggs can take the stock, or at least tack on 40+%. Lucas has good recovery in that he can usually make it back to the stage, but against a character like Jiggs he's going to take a lot of damage for it. If he's at low percents you want to keep hitting him to force him to use PKT until you're in a position to hit the head and gimp. Dash attack is a good option to keep in mind if he's near the ledge - I've hit him out of tether before.
thing is, can jiggs get lucas offstage in the first place? and if lucas has his second jump, he can zapjump to gtfo. jiggs' aerials having lingering hitboxes may say otherwise, but this is all just theory so idk.
On the ground we get beat pretty hard, but that's nothing new. Good jab combo, fast f-tilt, etc. I don't know why people are giving d-smash so much mention though. If you're playing this matchup like you should (not aggressively, playing carefully and baiting), you shouldn't be running into d-smash. I'm more scared of f-smash tbh.
you should be.
dsmash is painfully slow, 6 frames slower than fsmash. only thing it would be good for is platform camping and for use near the edge of the stage, in both options there are better and less laggy moves to choose. f-smash can be used to punish landings, which - you gotta admit - jiggs will be doing a lot. so jiggs has to be much more careful with her aerials and try not to miss anything.
In the air I think it's actually fairly even. Lucas has good air speed (10th in the game), so although Jiggs still beats him in top air speed, the advantage is not as significant as in other matchups. Lucas also accelerates to his top air speed faster than Jiggs does. His f-air has more range than most of our aerials except possibly our b-air. His d-air also has deceptive range, and can autocancel out of a fullhop, making it very hard for us to punish. He also has a much faster fall speed, which when combined with that d-air gives him the vertical spacing advantage too.
i've always had the impression that our fair range is pretty pathetic, and the only edge it has over anything else is the fact that it's disjointed. our dair is mostly used for ground game, you shouldn't be seeing it much in the air unless we use it to fast fall to the ground as an anti-juggle.
Against Lucas, my killing move is almost always f-air... it's really the only reliable thing we have, outside of a dash attack or DACUS read. Lucas on the other hand has no trouble killing us - even f-tilt and f-air kill Jiggs at decent percents.
lucas also has a -lot- of attacks (read: any special, aerial or smash) which have huge endlag for you to punish with fsmash.
This is definitely a matchup that becomes a lot easier when you don't have to approach. He seems to always have an answer to any sort of approach we have. We also have to watch out for pivot grabs - the way Jiggs has to approach leaves her fairly susceptible to them.
i think that's because your approach is mainly short hop, throw out an aerial, hop, aerial, land which gets pretty predictable after some time. and yeah, pivotgrab > misspaced aerial approaches.
If we had to assign numbers I'd say 60:40 Lucas' favour.
<hr />
This was written for Jiggs players, not Lucas players, so it tends to focus more on what Lucas can do. Of course, if there's anything inaccurate in that post, correct me.
T-block
B2B TST
I did have an "if" in my paragraph, and I probably should have said "if you can force Lucas to use PKT". If you get knocked far off stage I have no doubt you have enough unpredictability in your recovery to make it back safely. Things like grab release off the stage > n-air can put you in a bad position though, if it takes your double jump.
Umm...I'm not sure what you're trying to say. A move that's disjointed has good range basically by definition. I'm pretty sure your f-air has some gross range, but correct me if I'm wrong. And from what I've seen d-air is used a lot more than for "ground game".
Our f-smash will only kill you off a hard read. It has 15-frame startup, and if Lucas is throwing out those high-endlag moves at kill percent, he's doing it wrong. You have autocancelling aerials with a fast jab. Just don't throw out specials or smashes in neutral positions on-stage and you'll be fine? A big reason this matchup is so hard for Jiggs is that, unlike against some characters, Lucas doesn't need to land a smash off a read to kill Jiggs. He can stay perfectly safe and rack up damage, and then continue playing safe while f-tilt and f-air kill.
Umm...I'm not sure what you're trying to say. A move that's disjointed has good range basically by definition. I'm pretty sure your f-air has some gross range, but correct me if I'm wrong. And from what I've seen d-air is used a lot more than for "ground game".
Our f-smash will only kill you off a hard read. It has 15-frame startup, and if Lucas is throwing out those high-endlag moves at kill percent, he's doing it wrong. You have autocancelling aerials with a fast jab. Just don't throw out specials or smashes in neutral positions on-stage and you'll be fine? A big reason this matchup is so hard for Jiggs is that, unlike against some characters, Lucas doesn't need to land a smash off a read to kill Jiggs. He can stay perfectly safe and rack up damage, and then continue playing safe while f-tilt and f-air kill.
HailCrest, Fair has really good range and is sexy <3 T-Block/rPSI which has more range? Jigg's Bair or Lucas' Fair? I'd say Jiggs but i still wonder.
Dair is definetly used for more then just ground game ;O Lucas will always have a safe option for killing Jiggs, sadly for her. Also HailCrest alot of moves that have High Lag? o_O with PSHWBPKF you can use PKF defensively and literally make a wall for her. You can even run away from her since we are faster than her. She has better mobility then use though ;D Also if Lucas is using like Usmash and Dsmash or PKFr around Jiggs at high percentage derserves to get a Fsmash or DA to the face. Seriously just rack up damage on her and let about any move kill her with slight ease. (not every but like Fair, Ftilt, Utilt on small ceilings, Throws, and Fsmash) We have such an easier time killing then her ;-; Camp Jiggs to death really is the best thing you can do. Force her to approach because she will have a bit of trouble getting in.
Jiggs should not be gimping Lucas too much. However she can do alot of damge to him if we do not have our DJ. Been said not gonna say again lol. Lucas can do some damage to her offstage especially if she is below with PKT. DO NOT FOLLOW HER OFFSTAGE. You will get gimped if you do do that. She can make it hell offstage for us.
Jiggs really shouldn't be getting a Fsmash on Lucas if the Lucas knows what to do. Also iirc from what i'm looking at Jiggs can die from Dthrow at around 130%. Pivot Grabbing her approachs can also be annoying to her.
Overall we do not destroy her however we can make it really hard for her so i'd say it's in the category of 60:40 or 65:35. But this is just imho. ;3c I love Jiggs tho and on cuteness tho she wins 100:0 <3
I do agree with that Summary tho T-block ;D thanks for sharing it.
Dair is definetly used for more then just ground game ;O Lucas will always have a safe option for killing Jiggs, sadly for her. Also HailCrest alot of moves that have High Lag? o_O with PSHWBPKF you can use PKF defensively and literally make a wall for her. You can even run away from her since we are faster than her. She has better mobility then use though ;D Also if Lucas is using like Usmash and Dsmash or PKFr around Jiggs at high percentage derserves to get a Fsmash or DA to the face. Seriously just rack up damage on her and let about any move kill her with slight ease. (not every but like Fair, Ftilt, Utilt on small ceilings, Throws, and Fsmash) We have such an easier time killing then her ;-; Camp Jiggs to death really is the best thing you can do. Force her to approach because she will have a bit of trouble getting in.
Jiggs should not be gimping Lucas too much. However she can do alot of damge to him if we do not have our DJ. Been said not gonna say again lol. Lucas can do some damage to her offstage especially if she is below with PKT. DO NOT FOLLOW HER OFFSTAGE. You will get gimped if you do do that. She can make it hell offstage for us.
Jiggs really shouldn't be getting a Fsmash on Lucas if the Lucas knows what to do. Also iirc from what i'm looking at Jiggs can die from Dthrow at around 130%. Pivot Grabbing her approachs can also be annoying to her.
Overall we do not destroy her however we can make it really hard for her so i'd say it's in the category of 60:40 or 65:35. But this is just imho. ;3c I love Jiggs tho and on cuteness tho she wins 100:0 <3
I do agree with that Summary tho T-block ;D thanks for sharing it.
T-block
B2B TST
I'm pretty sure your f-air has more range.
PK Fire is nothing more than an annoyance. Her aerial mobility allows her to just airdodge through them without really losing any movement.
All in all, it's a solid advantage to Lucas, but not tooooo much of an uphill battle for Jiggs. Going by the descriptions in the OP, 60:40 definitely seems the most accurate.
PK Fire is nothing more than an annoyance. Her aerial mobility allows her to just airdodge through them without really losing any movement.
All in all, it's a solid advantage to Lucas, but not tooooo much of an uphill battle for Jiggs. Going by the descriptions in the OP, 60:40 definitely seems the most accurate.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Gawd, I love T-Block right now.
HailCrest
Smash Journeyman
i used to think that disjointed means that the move doesn't extend the character's hurtbox. jigg's aerials do, lucas' don't.
our fsmash is 14-frame, only one less than yours, just for information's sake.
T-block
B2B TST
sup PF <3
Eh... my opinion reflects the Jiggs boards' opinion of this matchup fairly well, so you're not missing much. Maniclysane (namesearch?) has some different ideas about this matchup, if you want to drag him in here to give input, but those ideas were kinda shot down by both sides. Or you can tell TOKAIO to stop being so lazy and post.Alrighty =p and who wouldn't like T-block ;D
btw i'm pretty sure this is about as much help we are gonna get from the MU. (Me and Tblock for jigglies ;3c) unless by miracle more happens
Nah, disjointed just means the hitbox extends beyond your character's hurtbox. That means disjointed moves tend to be a lot safer.
Idk why your f-smash seems so much faster... must be less noticeable startup frames, or maybe I'm referring to the lower cooldown or something. Either way, I've never felt that f-smash was too useful against Lucas (or against any character really).
heytallman
CTALL
lol wut? You can't kill anyone on any stage with PKT at that percent unless they have no idea what DI is.
T-block
B2B TST
From what I understand, we tend to like the same stages. As Jiggs, I might CP Frigate, or I might just go to your bad stages like YI or Lylat. Brinstar is one of Jiggs' best stages, but I don't see it working all that well against Lucas.
Take Jiggs to FD or Japes? I really hate fighting Lucas on FD lol
Take Jiggs to FD or Japes? I really hate fighting Lucas on FD lol
*double-slap* That's for both Delfino AND Brinstar. Jiggly does great on those two however we do well on both. Those are good CPs for a fun match tho!
^This ;D
Silly Ripple <3
Taking Jiggly to FD for us is a good plus. I would say stick to neutralish areas. FD, SV, and CS. I actually like FO but you're right on Jiggz does better there. I just do not like taking Jiggs to Brinstar because that stage works really well for her but it also does for us as well. Jiggs can control the air on the stage and since it is small we can't necessarily camp her as well as say on FD. However it is Lucas' best stage so in the end on that stage it will have to go to the better player or who knows how to really be mean on that stage. >;3
I would have to agree with this. Japes would end up being a campfest however i don't mind camping anymore ^^" it's really fun.
IMO i'd cp FD, SV, PS2 (<3)
ban: RC, Delfino (you can put Brinstar in here but why would you ever ban that stage xD)
strike: YI, BF
^
I would go Delfino because
I can kill her earlier (she can too but oh well)
Don't have to worry about offstage much
We have better water options
Only thing you really have to worry about is sharking, but thats not that big of a deal.
No, I mean if Jiggz gets a lead on Japes she's going to run from you the rest of the match.
Also, I would strike Lylat over BF (if Lylat's a starter), and PS1 > PS2
I would go Delfino because
I can kill her earlier (she can too but oh well)
Don't have to worry about offstage much
We have better water options
Only thing you really have to worry about is sharking, but thats not that big of a deal.
No, I mean if Jiggz gets a lead on Japes she's going to run from you the rest of the match.
Also, I would strike Lylat over BF (if Lylat's a starter), and PS1 > PS2
Comments in hot pink x3
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
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@Jiggly sharking - D-air and D-smash outta shuter up.
I'd keep FD (for obv limited moving space), SV (for obv reasons) and maybe BF. BF sort of gives you room to work with and limits some DJ and FH shenanigans she gets from being an aerial character. The only downside is that she's harder to catch if she gets the lead. IDK about PS1 as it could really be ****ed up for us if we lose a lead there. =/
I don't really know much for the CPs.
I'd keep FD (for obv limited moving space), SV (for obv reasons) and maybe BF. BF sort of gives you room to work with and limits some DJ and FH shenanigans she gets from being an aerial character. The only downside is that she's harder to catch if she gets the lead. IDK about PS1 as it could really be ****ed up for us if we lose a lead there. =/
I don't really know much for the CPs.
T-block
B2B TST
Sharking is significant. You have a massive d-air to stop it, but if you're committing to d-smash, Jiggs will probably have enough time to maneuver around it with her aerial mobility. Landing in water also cancels Rest for Jiggs, so she can definitely use the water on Delfino. I'm sure you have better options than Delfino... I'd take PS2 over Delfino for sure. Jiggs isn't hindered by PS2, but she can't use it nearly as well as some characters can.
The thing with Japes is that as Lucas against Jiggs, you WANT it to become a camp fest, because that makes it harder for Jiggs. Lucas can move ridiculously well on that stage - I don't see how catching Jiggs is any harder on Japes than on any other stage with what Lucas can do, especially if there's a LGL in play. On the other hand, Jiggs has a harder time catching Lucas on this stage if she has to approach, and approaching Lucas with Jiggs is tricky enough on any stage. You also effectively remove u-tilt and u-smash from her already tiny arsenal of kill moves, and even Rest becomes less effective, limiting her to f-air and dash attack. You can't get gimped or edgeguarded on one side of the stage, not to mention the water opens up more recovery options even if you're on the left side. Your d-throw loses effectiveness as a kill move, which kinda sucks, but it's still Jiggs... just play until f-tilt and f-air start killing off the sides.
The thing with Japes is that as Lucas against Jiggs, you WANT it to become a camp fest, because that makes it harder for Jiggs. Lucas can move ridiculously well on that stage - I don't see how catching Jiggs is any harder on Japes than on any other stage with what Lucas can do, especially if there's a LGL in play. On the other hand, Jiggs has a harder time catching Lucas on this stage if she has to approach, and approaching Lucas with Jiggs is tricky enough on any stage. You also effectively remove u-tilt and u-smash from her already tiny arsenal of kill moves, and even Rest becomes less effective, limiting her to f-air and dash attack. You can't get gimped or edgeguarded on one side of the stage, not to mention the water opens up more recovery options even if you're on the left side. Your d-throw loses effectiveness as a kill move, which kinda sucks, but it's still Jiggs... just play until f-tilt and f-air start killing off the sides.
T-block
B2B TST
I'm sure she could float under the centre part, but I don't see how it's more effective on Japes than on Smashville =P However you'd deal with it on Smashville will probably work on Japes.
~Nasty~
Smash Lord
You "idk know"?
Redundant phrases are redundant sir.
That's like "atm maching" or "PIN number"
>.<
/pet peeve
ON TOPIC: I like SV in this MU. We need to rely on that platform sometimes in order to recover. hmm... idk where else i'd wanna go, maybe BF, and Halberd bc we can kill even earlier.
Pitbuller26
Smash Lord
Only if I saw this thread before last saturday. Lost to nothing but Jiggs in the low tier side tourney at San Diego.
From what I learned, Halberd is a decent CP as dthrow and uthrow kill her pretty early. Had to pretty much learn this matchup in tourney.
From what I learned, Halberd is a decent CP as dthrow and uthrow kill her pretty early. Had to pretty much learn this matchup in tourney.
Kite0692
Smash Journeyman
Is this dead or what?
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
J got grounded. That's what.
Kite0692
Smash Journeyman
J where are youuuu?
Mekos
Smash Master
Yo imma help yall cuz i love yall. This is the simple best strat for sonic in my opinion. On a neutral stage simple go to the edge and wait for him to approach u. works every time. Sonic usually focuses on reacting to u. For example notice how they all back setep charge forward smash. lol just don't go to them and wait. For this strat to work u must not lose the first stock!!. Also when on the edge of the stage don't get gimped under it when trying to recover if u get knocked off. Sonic is good at gimping.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
inb4speed.
~Nasty~
Smash Lord
Kai > Speed
inb4SonicMaster5
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
I disagree.
KoozyK
Smash Ace
after watching espy vs shaky, and knowing the same thing can be done to us with the ******** grab release.
i have to say spacing is a serious thing here. we can out space and mind game the crap out of him.
like Mekos said said, caping is probably the best option, and its recomended to space by the edge so u cant get GR to death. *shiza moms calling me to eat ill put the rest of my input up later.
ps PF wat is ur avatar??
i have to say spacing is a serious thing here. we can out space and mind game the crap out of him.
like Mekos said said, caping is probably the best option, and its recomended to space by the edge so u cant get GR to death. *shiza moms calling me to eat ill put the rest of my input up later.
ps PF wat is ur avatar??
~Nasty~
Smash Lord
I only said that bc of how good kai did when he came out of retirement at the tourney down there like last week. I really don't have an opinion on who's better, honestly.
Incorrect, sir.
Sonic, for some reason, can grab release chaingrab Ness, but CANNOT grab release chaingrab Lucas.
All Sonic gets from grab release is a free ftilt or dash attack.
Don't know why it doesn't work. It just doesn't.