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The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

HelpR

Smash Ace
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btw, what I forgot to mention about japes earlier, which is painfully obvious, but it still needs to be pointed out, is that fox cant kill with his usmash till approximately 130%, making his dsmash and fsmash more viable for killing, but with proper spacing you should be able to avoid them somewhat competently.
 

#HBC | J

Prince of DGamesia
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hmmm sounds great at the MU for Fox.

though i like CPing Delfino in this MU just me though. :p


Also I am lurking on the Olimar threads to get better with him.

Why on theirs does it say 40:60 Olimar when here it says 45:50-50:50?
 

HelpR

Smash Ace
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Jbandit: it could be that the last time they discussed the matchup is older/newer, this metagame changes constantly afterall. It could also be that nobody from the lucas boards game and discussed the matchup on their boards, it could also be that the lucas' that did contribute had very little experience with the olimar matchup or vice versa.

point is, that there are ALOT of factors that play into this. it could also be that the general consensus of the olimar boards was just different then what we figured out here in the lucas boards.

each of the boards are independent from one another, and the matchup percents really dont matter too much anyways, the matchup advice given in the thread are always significantly more important then any percentages, so take the percentages with a grain of salt
 

#HBC | J

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okay then thanks Helpr for clearing that up :D

Plus your right the MU percentage does not really matter. I realized this going against some characters we have a supreme disadvantage at...it's just harder but with the right techniques it can be accomplished.

Except Snake....that can never be won ;>_>

thanks and goodness the next MU is gonna be very hard *looks at Peach* she is a ***** against Lucas....Pink Fresh showed me first hand
 

HelpR

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peach? i have some stuff to input on her, personally, but like most characters once you break her down you can beat her.

I'll save it for when the discussion starts though
 

HelpR

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....peach.

peach is... actually quite fun to fight.

this matchup is interesting, cause peach is really a different character from the rest of the cast, so let's break her down.

Peach's strengths:
-Aerial mobility
-incredible horizontal recovery
-ability to space well using a combination of her unique second jump and her aerials
-almost all of her aerials autocancel very well, particularly bair and fair
-she has decent killing power
-she is really difficult to gimp when recovering with her umbrella, especially if you wish to attack from above, which the umbrella's hitbox will not permit
-she is difficult to land a killing move on when the peach takes advantage of the fact that peach can autocancel most of her moves easily, particularly the strongest ones
-dair, while not completely safe on shield, can be difficult to punish, particularly when she dips in and out quickly
-if the peach farms for items, she has a small chance (extremely small chance) to get one of 4 items, the beam sword, mr saturn, stitch face, or the wind bob-omb, or mr saturn.
>beam sword: basically a beam sword, has the same properties as the original
>mr. saturn: kinda useless, well not really. Most peaches completely ignore the mascot of the mother series, which is a shame because a bit of shield pressure plus this item can cause a popped shield and a lost stock.
>stitch face: Oh lord. basically a turnip with glorified knockback, damage, everything, however, while the stitch face is bad it's nowhere near as bad as the...
>wind up bob-omb: oh sweet jesus run away. This thing is quite easily peach's best draw when she plucks turnips, if you see peach get this and throw it towards you, i hope you can dodge quickly because if you're above 30% this thing will cost you a stock. the only advantage that stitch face has over this item is that this item is one use, while if you manage to hit the opponent with stitch face (their shield makes stitch face disappear) then the peach can recatch it and use it again.

peach's weaknesses:
-quite easily the worst vertical recovery in the entire game, the characters with tethers not included.
>there has been literally a grand total of like 5 situations where this game into play, really difficult to spike peach
-fairly light character
-does not have many approaches besides SH + aerial and using turnips to force an approach
-has the worst air dodge in the entire game
>can be juggled because she has the worst air dodge in the entire game
- offstage, is extremely vulnerable to pk thunder
-while she has 4 potent kill moves, those being sweet spotted usmash, sweet spotted utilt, fsmash (more on this later) and sh fair, she does not have much besides that making her rather predictable when the peach is looking for a kill.
-her fsmash is luck based, with it breaking down into:
>golf club: has the longest range out of all of peach's fsmashes, and has the middling knockback when not sweetspotted, knockback is primarily at a 45 degree angle from the stage
>frying pan: quite easily the strongest out of all 3 of the attacks, has primarily, a vertical knockback, but the shortest range
>tennis racket: is middle in range, but is easily the weakest, however, when this sweetspots it has very good knockback, which is behind peach if I recall correctly
>despite the fact that these 3 moves come out at random, do not expect to not get killed by them, as they are still potent, however, if luck is against the peach this can result in you surviving an attack that may have killed if it was any of the other weapons

Peach is overall quite an interesting character, she has properties that few other characters have, particularly in which two of her moves are luck based, she can airplank to some degree, and has a difficult to gimp recovery, alongside her unique 2nd jump she is a character that can be difficult to kill when played perfectly.

how to deal with peach's tactics coming later >>
 

O'chunks

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I'm giving input on this MU later as well. Got some interesting things to discuss with someone.
 

#HBC | J

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yea ima input later cuz this MU is a hard MU for Lucas.

btw Helpr nice break up but her Golf Club is the strongest of her Fsmashes and when sweetspotted could kill Lucas like +60% Frying Pan sends him upward and on a higher ceiling it's hard to kill

Golf Club = 45 angle
Frying Pan = 90 angle
Tennis Racket = 180 (if I can remember correctly)

ima just say this to start it off for me: 35-65 or 40-60 Peach and ill say why later.

PF needs to get on this since he uses Peach as well. PF should me how Peach can do against Lucas a bit.
 

HelpR

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i'm gonna have to agree with chuee, it is in no way 35-65, i'd say 40-60 is about right, and a case could be made for 45-55, but 35-65? no way in hell.
 

#HBC | J

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I said either of the two. though this MU is hard especially for Lucas :/ if there was a way I would say 37.5 - 62.5. So technically it would round up to 40-60....Peach is a freacking ***** when played at a very high level and can mess with Lucas ALOT.

I personally hate this MU cuz it is hard for Lucas to win this....though it's not impossible....just incredible hard. Peach messes with us so much.
 

HelpR

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yea ima input later cuz this MU is a hard MU for Lucas.

btw Helpr nice break up but her Golf Club is the strongest of her Fsmashes and when sweetspotted could kill Lucas like +60% Frying Pan sends him upward and on a higher ceiling it's hard to kill

Golf Club = 45 angle
Frying Pan = 90 angle
Tennis Racket = 180 (if I can remember correctly)

ima just say this to start it off for me: 35-65 or 40-60 Peach and ill say why later.

PF needs to get on this since he uses Peach as well. PF should me how Peach can do against Lucas a bit.
really? I gotta test it cause it has been a while, and fsmash rarely comes into play, particularly because most peaches i fight dislike using it, because fair is a significantly more reliable kill move and safer on shield

worst.personal.matchup
this matchup isnt that bad, just like every other matchup if you practice it enough you'll have it down.

alright, moving onto another part of every matchup, how to deal with individual tactics and attacks

peach's attacks:

peach's ground game: peach is a character that quite easily spends a large portion of time in the air, most likely the 3rd largest amount of time in the air next to MK and jigglypuff, however, despite this peach still has a decent ground game with fast grabs, a good dash attack, and several tilts that cover her well

smashes:
-fsmash: covered earlier, luckbased on both range and damage, not much to say past that

-dsmash: peach spins on the ground, knockback sends you at a horizontal straight through peach.

-usmash: this move is rather difficult to use. it has a significantly smaller hitbox then utilt, however, if you manage to hit your opponent in just the right way, it has incredible knockback

tilts:
-ftilt: very fast move, if the peach has little time to get into the air when being attacked expect this move, mediocre knockback, sends you primarily upwards

-utilt: significantly larger hitbox then usmash, sends you upwards

-dtilt: a move that sweeps low, sends you upwards, primarily used for edgeguarding

grabs:

peach doesnt have any particularly outstanding grabs, however, her best grab is likely her fthrow, which has killing potentional.... at ridiculous percentages.

special moves:
- towards B: she throws herself at you, medium range, however very laggy if it hits nothing, so try and punish if this is used haphazardly

-down b: pluck dat turnip. This is where the majority of peach's mindgames come from, if you can perfect shield most of her projectiles or zcatch them, this'll make this matchup significantly easier, however, if you have trouble doing that little then this will likely be the part of the matchup that poses the largest problem to you

-up B: peach's recovery, she jumps up into the air, pulling out her parasol, she gently glides down. peach is extremely vulnerable to PK thunder while doing this, as well as any attacks from below, if the peach is recovering and you can only get at her from above, I personally wouldnt bother, as you'll likely get caught up on the hitbox of her parasol. Sometimes used in the same manner as samus' screw attack, where it can rack up some damage on an opponent who stays too close, if she gives you this opening feel free to take an usmash
note: If peach is facing away from the stage when doing her up B, she needs to lower her parasol to grab the edge

- neutral B: peach pulls out toad, countering any attacks that hit her. pretty self explanatory, however, it has one property no other counter in the game has:
>countering a counter: If peach pulls out her toad on the ground in an attempt to stop you from hitting her, you have two choices:
A. laugh and fsmash
B. fsmash then laugh
fsmash, due to it's reflective properties can actually reflect the spores that toad fires back at peach for a decent amount of damage, effectively countering a counter. obviously, you'd prefer to kill, however, if you do not know the timing for the ending lag of peach's counter this is an option.

peach's air game is coming in the next post, and that is where the majority of her metagame stands. hope you guys dont mind the titanically long posts, but peach is a character where you have to break down almost every single option she has to know how to fight her.
 

Chuee

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Whatever you do don't let her Dair your shield. If she doesn't land after the Dair, Nair OoS. If she lands after it you should either try and predict what she does after that or roll away.
If she tries floating towards you use PKF or Fair.
 

Levitas

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Peach can decide to hover above any aerial range we can achieve, so our horizontal spacing tools are bypassed. Peach can cover herself well upon landing with an aerial. We get somewhat minimal chances to hit her if she plays unsafe on aerial to land (or to a lesser degree if her aerial is unsafe). Peach doesn't KO us all that well, and edgeguarding tends to only damage us. We however, don't get Fsmash KOs against her nearly as well, because once she gets to 90, she can just stop using stationary/grounded moves. At that point, lucas tends to kill best with Fair/uair, which we all know doesn't work well at all.
 

HelpR

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was a bit too busy to write up peach's air game, but has anyone contacted the peach boards yet about this?
 

~Pink Fresh~

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lucas has a problem with a character that can pressure his shield well, especially if said character outranges lucas while pressuring.

Peach has amazing shield advantages on pretty much all of her aerials, shown by this thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264136

Peach can basically pressure us into doing what she wants, or making a bad decision, that she can punish and put us into another bad position. The only way to effectively stop her shield pressure is to powershield pretty much every aerial she does.
 

Chuee

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Ah I see.
I'd say SV would probably be our best neutral in this MU. If you go BF you risk Uair pressure (which is ****ing gay). Go FD and you have Peach's GR CG.
Every time I play this MU I camp my *** off.
Also, try using PKFreeze against her float offstage. She has to AD it :3
Usmash if timed can actually, like hit through her AD or something since her AD sucks. I've done this a few times, pretty fun :D
 

Levitas

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uh, why would you use PK freeze and get a miss at best when you could go PKT and still force an airdodge while potentially hitting?
 

HelpR

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I can actually see chuee's line of reasoning here, you can PK freeze her, forcing her to airdodge and drop or umbrella. however, this requires such an amazing setup where you know she's gonna be off the stage, you have PK freeze ready, she's already in her second jump, that it really isnt feasible. PKT is really the better option all around
 

#HBC | J

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I gotta agree with Levi. I went against a mean Peach in my last tournament (where PF shouldv'e been cuz the competition was insane o_o)

Anyways. This Peach knew how to mess Lucas up and down. *shiver* stay away from BF cuz that stage is just bad for us. FD is what Chuee said. and I hate YI myself cuz it's just bad for Lucas (imo). Id say SV or PS1 (been a neutral in a few tournies). PKT works for Gimping cuz you can follow Peach instead of only getting the one blast from PK freeze. Plus i just like PKT for gimping :3

If you aren't sheilding like most the battle and being patient against Peach you have really sealed your fate. You gotta try and watch Peach to see which move she is gonna do so you can evaluate the best way of punishment. Though it will be hard to punish a good Peach cuz they know when to Auto-cancel and set you up. With me it seems to work being patient cuz whenever I try to pressure a Peach they know how to punish....dearly.

Another thing to watch out for......turnips....i will elaborate later but *shiver* those turnips make up the other half of Peach's game that isn't aerial. It's even worse when they know how to Glide-Toss.

g2g to school so ill elaborate more later.
 

HelpR

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it's called a feint.

if she nairs you pull it upwards a bit andbring it down on her head

if she dairs pull it to the side a bit and punish the ending lag

if she fairs, wait for ending lag

you can generally force her to do certain things then punish her.
 

Meru.

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it's called a feint.

if she nairs you pull it upwards a bit andbring it down on her head

if she dairs pull it to the side a bit and punish the ending lag

if she fairs, wait for ending lag

you can generally force her to do certain things then punish her.

Is this theorycrafting? I doubt this will work.

Nair has a crazy hitbox, it doesn't only hit next to her, but the hitbox covers almost her whole body, including her head. Only pulling it upwards won't work. You're better off waiting for the ending lag. Besides, she might drop down or 2nd jump...

Dair has very little ending lag, this time the 'down on her head' tactic actually works better. I guess. I don't really know how you would do that though...

Fair? I wouldn't use that.

Anyway, I don't really see this working... I'm not too experienced on this match-up, but I do know some stuff, and I don't think this works very well against Peach.


:052:
 

Praxis

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Nobody here has mentioned Peach's grabs? xD

grabs:

peach doesnt have any particularly outstanding grabs, however, her best grab is likely her fthrow, which has killing potentional.... at ridiculous percentages.

Peach's bthrow does 12%, and she has a grab release chain grab on Lucas that can refresh her moveset to let her kill and ends in ftilt (which kills around 160%), bthrow (for 12%), or fthrow at the ledge (kills around 200% fresh, puts Lucas offstage).

The grab release CG is a big deal.

Yes, "don't get grabbed" applies, but Peach is far better at grabbing than most of the cast. Unsweetspotted bair combos into grab, and all of her aerials autocancel and her jab either leads into a grab or a 50/50 guessing game for a grab and comes out in two frames and has crazy range. And we have tricks to move our grab hitbox to weird places ;)

Peach definitely has problems killing, but she's particularly well suited to outspace Lucas' kill moves, so they both tend to live pretty long and Peach can do some pretty solid gimping with turnips.

Peach beats Lucas, though not solely because of the grab, and not any kind of crazy counter. I think it's a solid 60:40.
 
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