The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[Code Lyon]

Why is Fox ADIng?

 

[Lightning93]

Also, using an empty SH gives the magnet time to cool down, that won't help you punish.

Let's assume for a while all top level players, despite being seriously pro, don't have the ability to actually read their opponent's mind. If Fox is SHSL towards you, it's nearly impossible to see when exactly he'll just empty SH unless you have unhuman-like eyes. We don't AD, as SHSL can only be performed right before we hit the ground. You literally have a couple of frames to recognize the empty SH, lower your PSI magnet without it being canceled, and then get ready to punish either Fox's air, ground, PWG, or running shield approach. I mean it might be possible, and my goal here isn't to say this strategy is 100% unavoidable, but imo it seems like you're completely nullifying it. Again, this is assuming you're holding out magnet in the first place.

Otherwise the stages sound good so far.

 

[HelpR]

to deal with utilt DI it up. when fighting fox at low percentages you risk being comboed from 0 to 60 from one string, and a fox can easily achieve that with one misstep, dont try to fight back just back off.

a particular attack string i see foxes using alot is dair --> utilt, utilt, --> grab --> dthrow. easily racks on a good 40 damage and is relatively safe. the fox wants you in front of him, I generally try to DI the attack upwwards and jump out before the fox thinks to nair or fair.

this is one of those matchups where 3-5 percent means dieing approximately 5 seconds sooner, and trust me, those 5 seconds are worth alot. avoid any unnecessary damage, dont approach in stupid ways.

Lucas doesnt have any tricks really that help or hurt him in this matchup, the basic stuff works on fox just like everyone else, but fox is one of the characters who doesnt have a weird perk due to GR, at least not from my experience.

As far as edgegames are concerned... yeah, they dont happen too often. most foxes worth their salt dont play off the stage, and it's difficult to gimp them outright unless they FF an aerial, so this matchup is mostly ground based. However, as far as gimping fox's firefox is concerned, dair is somewhat effective, though more often then not it results in lucas being hit and flung up and fox just pausing in midair for a moment. We really dont have a good answer to firefox.

This is a very basic matchup, just dont play haphazardously, keep an eye out for some of fox's tricks, and use some sense and you can win.

Oh, and concerning what I said earlier about counterpicking fox, I forgot about kirby. One grab equates to nearly an entire stock, dont mess with that star warrior lol.

pit was a lesser example, just a tactic I saw used by a pit main I know. it was a wierd sight seeing a fox go from nearly level on the stage using firefox to all the way down in the bottom right corner, nearly 6 arrows later.

I think I covered some of the bases. I dont really have any data, so if anyone does, please tell me what I got wrong, as this is just my general feel of the matchup.

 

[Code Lyon]

Pit being a Fox counter? Wow I keep hearing people say this we need to redo that MU discussion >.<
Anyways I'd advise Kirby over Pit even one grab doesn't equal a stock.

I think some one here said Fox has GR>Usmash

 

[Lightning93]

If you really want a counterpick to Fox learn the Ice Climbers. Imo they're honestly Fox's absolute worst MU. Everything we can do to try and separate them puts us at extreme risk. One IC on its own can CG us to like 40% or something.

Shiek and Pika suffer from lack of range and options to get us into either ftilt or grab respectively.

 

[Levitas]

Sheik is plenty capable of wrecking fox even without what you consider a lack of range/options.

 

[Lightning93]

I didn't say she couldn't. If anyone were to know it would be me. My best friend was a Shiek main, a very notable one too. He never made his name well known but he was complimented multiple times as one of the best out there.

Just don't expect to automatically win just because you pick Shiek. It's only that bad a MU if you actually know the character.

 

[Code Lyon]

Same goes for Pika.

EDIT: Using your logic Levitas ZSS vs. Fox wouldn't be 6/4 Fox right now. (Not saying Pika will become THAT easy) I think shiek's number will drop to 6/4 Shiek.

 

[~Nasty~]

Why are we discussing character CP in a MU that is close to even. That is not what the purpose is here. Lucas can win this MU, it's not impossible and there is no need to pick another character to fight fox with. If you want to discuss the fox MU against one of your secondaries, take it to their thread.

Now get back on topic or GTFO

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Thanks Nasty :D

 

[Code Lyon]

Cool Nasty.

 

[HiddenBowser]

I guess I am just trying to contribute. I said I tried to Nair it a couple times but got punished....severly. I tried DI ing but I still couldn't get out xD

I am waiting for the Yoshi, Jiggs, Peach, and a few others MU discussions cuz I know alot about those.. I am only trying to help by doing research on this by what I can.

Btw for Frame Data discussions I am out of those cuz I know nothing about those Frame data is too complicated for me. I just battle.

You don't have the first clue about the game on any competitive level.

Pit being a Fox counter? Wow I keep hearing people say this we need to redo that MU discussion >.<
Anyways I'd advise Kirby over Pit even one grab doesn't equal a stock.

I think some one here said Fox has GR>Usmash

You don't have a clue either.

I didn't say she couldn't. If anyone were to know it would be me. My best friend was a Shiek main, a very notable one too. He never made his name well known but he was complimented multiple times as one of the best out there.

Just don't expect to automatically win just because you pick Shiek. It's only that bad a MU if you actually know the character.

I think sheik is the hardest fox counter. I've played Ankoku quite a bit and he just shuts me down, it's stupid. You can at least completely mess IC's up with a well placed grab. Pika is also not nearly as bad as first glance... but yeah, sheik is like the one character that completely kicks the **** out of my fox.

Also, my opinion in the Fox v Lucas matchup as far as stages go: FD is the worst stage for fox here. Don't choose battlefield cause fox ***** there cause the platforms are at perfect heights. He also ***** pretty well on smashville.

 

[Code Lyon]

You don't have a clue either..

How don't I >.>

 

[Zankoku]

It's only that bad a MU if you actually know the character.

Let's not rate matchups on one of the two players being inexperienced, please.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

How don't I >.>

Please that to VMs. I don't want any sort of flames starting.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that someone agrees that FD is a good stage for Lucas in this MU.

 

[Code Lyon]

Let's not rate matchups on one of the two players being inexperienced, please.

Lol you name searched.

Anyways idk about FD. I still say it gives us more room to use our speed, unless J is doing somethin wrong >.< this is why I hate Wifi XD.

I'll just check if there are any Lucas's in GA and play them at a tourney or something. hmm maybe Rayku.

 

[#HBC | J]

You don't have the first clue about the game on any competitive level.

Excuse me? How would you know xD oh well I guess it's just your opinon but im just gonna say I don't agree. I'm still a noob to the forums but not battling so

I'm not gonna argue im just gonna sit back and lurk

Though I do need to go against more Foxes.

Anyways idk about FD. I still say it gives us more room to use our speed, unless J is doing somethin wrong >.< this is why I hate Wifi XD.

I'm with ya Wifi sucks big time compared to real battling. Tournament battles are fun. Plus if been thinking and FD is like even but eeeehh im staying out of this MU as of now till I get more exp. on the forums. I might join the Peach one but it all depends.

Btw thanks rPSI for the threads you should me they are a good read and helping me out big time.

 

[Lightning93]

Let's not rate matchups on one of the two players being inexperienced, please.

What? No, I think you misunderstand me. I was just merely reminding people picking Shiek doesn't automatically give you a huge advantage unless you are experienced in playing her.

And yeah Bowyer, Code Lyon is actually a long time Fox main. His English can be a bit lacking at times, but to everyone here, he actually does have a clue. No need to ignore him/anything he's said about the MU.

Otherwise... I think were done with the Fox v. Lucas discussion.

 

[Code Lyon]

Thanks yous Light.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So does someone think they can give me a good stage list?

 

[#HBC | J]

obviously not me xD

 

[Code Lyon]

T.T You don't like the one we made?

 

[#HBC | J]

I did but I don't think anyone else does. Dx FD is kindof controversial.

 

[Levitas]

FD shouldn't be. Lucas doesn't lose much w/o platforms against fox, and fox loses a bunch. It's a pretty decent place for lucas to fight him.

 

[#HBC | J]

OKay then take it from Levitas :D

Ill go fix it and say Lucas

Though should it be Lucas has an advantage or just Lucas?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I don't want a stage list based off of friendlies over wi-fail.

 

[~Nasty~]

Strike: YI and Lylat. (Lucas can handle fox better on the other nuetrals as opposed to these two IMO)
Ban: Halberd
CP: PS1. MAYBE Delfino.

I personally like a bigger stage in this MU. It gives you more room to move around once fox starts stringing attacks. PS1 is a fairly good stage bc it's big and the ceiling is somewhat high, and fox kills up.

Hope to get FD in round one. If he strikes it, i'd say hope for smashville bc BF is a good stage for him and IMO fox moves around on that stage better than us. That is all.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Hmm... I would think that Lylat helps us more than it does for Fox. It REALLY blows for him.

 

[Code Lyon]

Yea I agree no Lylat for Fox. Even though we can use plats. for Plat. ACing, the stupid ledge+stage tilt makes illision onto ledge even more risky >.>

 

[HelpR]

strike: YI, FD
ban: halberd
CP: Japes, delfino, lylat

I generally CP japes if it's available, as most of lucas' killing power is horizontal, however, one has to remember that trying to gimp fox here is **** near impossible, so your main concern should be killing with fsmash and dsmash. Also, you encounter the same problems you face fighting falco here, where he can phantasm constantly, lasering whenever he gets far away. you can generally keep your distance and magnet most of the time, forcing an approach.

after that, a good CP against fox is delfino, as fox's phantasm becomes an extremely risky move. Also, lucas does not exactly have a large amount of advantages on this stage, and if gets CPed by MK, D3, or anyone with GR regrab, it can get annoying.

lylat is actually a favorite of mine against fox and marth, just try not to suck recovering and this stage becomes a massive asset.

 

[Tokaio]

strike: YI, FD
ban: halberd
CP: Japes, delfino, lylat

I generally CP japes if it's available, as most of lucas' killing power is horizontal, however, one has to remember that trying to gimp fox here is **** near impossible, so your main concern should be killing with fsmash and dsmash. Also, you encounter the same problems you face fighting falco here, where he can phantasm constantly, lasering whenever he gets far away. you can generally keep your distance and magnet most of the time, forcing an approach.

after that, a good CP against fox is delfino, as fox's phantasm becomes an extremely risky move. Also, lucas does not exactly have a large amount of advantages on this stage, and if gets CPed by MK, D3, or anyone with GR regrab, it can get annoying.

lylat is actually a favorite of mine against fox and marth, just try not to suck recovering and this stage becomes a massive asset.

o.o what? I really hate Lylat...especially against Marth. Isn't it pretty good for Marth? I wouldn't CP Lylat. It's probably just as bad for Fox as it is for us. Other than that, this list looks good.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

There's no way Lucas does as bad as Fox does there. It should be what Fox bans in this MU.

 

[IsmaR]

I never ban Lylat. It's worse for the other spacies, IMO. But I'll agree that Lucas doesn't do that badly on it.

 

[#HBC | J]

best stage imo is Delfino xD Alot of advantages there over Fox at least I think o_o so banning that one would be better for Fox though Japes is kindof great for Lucas as well

Japes gives Fox a little advantage with the Fox Illusion so for Fox's I would ban Delfino cuz it seems the best and most logical for Lucas players to choose. Though again I may be wrong. Lylat is also another safe ban would be this stage but ima say Delfino is good in this MU

*goes back to lurking and watching his tourny progress*

So for CPing it would be for me: Lylat, then Delfino, then JJ

 

[heytallman]

Once a Fox CP'd me to Delfino. Granted, this was in 2008 rofl.

 

[Conviction]

Yes finally got my account back! But yea it seems even though what me J did over Wi-fail was Wi-fail. People agreeing to basically what the Wi-fail chart has brought to the table.

 

[#HBC | J]

wb Iblis :D and yea i noticed that too :]

 

[Conviction]

Yea so can we just use that list but change FD to Lucas?

 

[#HBC | J]

idk it's rPSI's thread so ima just wait to see what he says

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I believe that I have everything I need. Will update on the weekend.