The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[#HBC | J]

This is just the data me and Code collected during our Friendlies against each other to get the feel of how a battle with Lucas vs. Fox would be like.

---------------------------------------
Stages
---------------------------------------

[!!! - Most likely will win ]
[* - Slight advantage ]
[Even - Even ]


Final Destination -

Halberd - !!!

Lylat Cruise -

Delfino Plaza - !!!

Yoshi's Island - Even

Battlefield - !!! (<--- for real Fox is a beast here)

Castle Siege (stage 1) -

C.S. (stage 2) -

C.S. (stage 3) - !!!

C.S. (overall) -

Smashville - ** (eeeeh this is really close)

Frigate Orpheon - Very even (could go either way)

Pirate Ship - **

Pokemon Stadium - Even (Though on the stages with walls Fox has the slight advantage)

Brinstar - !!!

Rainbow Cruise - **

Jungle Japes - **

That's just a basic compile up.


Now for Banning counterpicking and Striking here it is

Banning: Halberd, Battlefield

Striking: Yoshi's Island

Counterpicking: Delfino Plaza, Lylat Cruise, Jungle Japes


Those seem very fair to me and kindof right with the research I saw. So that's my part I hope I got at least 1 right xD

 

[#HBC | J]

If the Lucas magnet cancels Fox doesn't outcamp Lucas.

I agree with this cuz Lucas can super camp though we were just doing friendlies for the stage research which was fun

 

[Code Lyon]

If the Lucas magnet cancels Fox doesn't outcamp Lucas.

You can only magnet canel if I hit your magnet with projectile right?

 

[#HBC | J]

Btw Code Lyon do you agree with the basic outline of stages or should I change a few things?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You do realize what stage striking is, right?

 

[#HBC | J]

^^" I think it means....oh just correct me I have only been in two tournies before I think it means striking stages until certain stages are left?

 

[Code Lyon]

I agree but yea do you know what stage striking is?

You can't strike CS because not a neutral.....

other than that it looks good. Unless your fellow Lucas's have any complaints

EDIT: Also some one answer my question about Magnet Cancelling....

EDIT 2: Aight thanks Chuee

 

[Chuee]

Correct Lyon, but you're not punishing magnet.

 

[#HBC | J]

okay I see I fail

Ill fix it so FD could be striken I guess not C.S.

 

[Code Lyon]

Correct Lyon, but you're not punishing magnet.

I'm lasering which gets you into the feel of Magnet Canceling, I can Empty SH like I was gonna laser, you are gonna be PSI'ing, I punish you for doing so, then it becomes a guessing game for you that either leaves me in a neutral or adv. position.


EDIT:

Now for Banning counterpicking and Striking here it is

Banning: Halberd, Battlefield, Castle Siege, Final Destination

Striking: Final Destination

Counterpicking: Delfino Plaza, Lylat Cruise, Pirate Ship

Stage strikes only last for the first match.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I like FD vs. Fox.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yea it is fun however Fox has a major advantage with the flat surface. However it could go either way that is why it is just Fox's face there and not an **.

That stage is really up to each indiviual player.

 

[Code Lyon]

Adding onto things. We need other Lucas and Fox opinions.... and I think C.S is banned in most tournies.

EDIT: Agreed Rocket FD is a fun stage for this MU. (I have a hate FD on Wifi though if you go to AIB it's like FD be calling them like the crack be calling Pooky.)

 

[Chuee]

I'm lasering which gets you into the feel of Magnet Canceling, I can Empty SH like I was gonna laser, you are gonna be PSI'ing, I punish you for doing so, then it becomes a guessing game for you that either leaves me in a neutral or adv. position.

What are you going to punish it with? If you're at a good enough distance, you aren't going to punish it.

 

[#HBC | J]

Actually C.S. isn't banned cuz of it being gimmickless really
(though it could just be the tournaments I have seen on the site)

We forgot to do PS2, Jungle Japes, and Rainbow Cruise but those are the ones that are mostly banned though JJ is making a comeback with the tournaments I have seen like SOVA and some EC have that in their tournaments. I guess it is region.

Anyways yea mine and Code's aren't enough of an opinon so anyone got any ideas?

 

[Code Lyon]

And if I am in a good distance I will punish it. Mid-range to close range is close enough to punish it. It's not like we are super human. You're not gonna automaticly go "he is not gonna laser don't put my Magnet up"

EDIT: I'm pretty sure PS2 is banned, RC isn't banned, and yea JJ is debatable......

EDIT 2: I know this is way off-topic but does Lucas feel like playing? I'm mad bored right now XD

EDIT 3: Semi on-topic the Lucas MU feels like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc98JLN9mUA but I don't think it's as fun as Yoshi.....

EDIT 4: Wow I have a lot of edits.

 

[#HBC | J]

kk so data for RC and maybe JJ just cuz you might see it every once in a while.

I'm just happy I didn't fail with my picks from the research :D

 

[Levitas]

;>.> fox doesn't have a major advantage on flat surfaces. Battlefield can do nice things for fox like give him followups after getting a fair or dair>utilt in.

SCOTU and I have done this matchup a thousand times, and bowyer picked up fox last fall. Fox does some interesting spacing things with fair, and has some decent followups, but he leaves himself open every time he wants to get a hit in because his hitboxes are so close to him. Lucas's ftilt walls effectively if you avoid letting fox in too close.

I manage this matchup by forcing yomi wherever possible and just trading a lot of hits. As long as you avoid getting gimped as lucas, you come out a bit ahead.

Fox is used to killing earlier than his opponents with upsmash, it's valid here too. When you start hitting 90, you need to watch for situations where he can just dash usmash. If you must try to hit him, use moves like jab and ftilt. Usmash out of shield is deadly too.

Neutral stages tend to be rather neutral here, battlefield is his more than ours, YS is kinda nutty so I'm not commenting there, FD doesn't favor either character, and so on. I don't know much about CPing fox, but you really don't need gimmicky stages to beat him.

 

[Code Lyon]

;>.> fox doesn't have a major advantage on flat surfaces. Battlefield can do nice things for fox like give him followups after getting a fair or dair>utilt in.

SCOTU and I have done this matchup a thousand times, and bowyer picked up fox last fall. Fox does some interesting spacing things with fair, and has some decent followups, but he leaves himself open every time he wants to get a hit in because his hitboxes are so close to him. Lucas's ftilt walls effectively if you avoid letting fox in too close.

I manage this matchup by forcing yomi wherever possible and just trading a lot of hits. As long as you avoid getting gimped as lucas, you come out a bit ahead.

Fox is used to killing earlier than his opponents with upsmash, it's valid here too. When you start hitting 90, you need to watch for situations where he can just dash usmash. If you must try to hit him, use moves like jab and ftilt. Usmash out of shield is deadly too.

Neutral stages tend to be rather neutral here, battlefield is his more than ours, YS is kinda nutty so I'm not commenting there, FD doesn't favor either character, and so on. I don't know much about CPing fox, but you really don't need gimmicky stages to beat him.

So what's your number?

EDIT: Here we go again edits..... anyways you wanna play some more J?

 

[#HBC | J]

I guess I can go a few more friendlies cuz im bored as well.

@Levitas: I noticed that with the Usmash and Lucas cuz that's how Code killed me most the time during the research. Plus Delfino and Lylat aren't gimmicky Lucas just has a heck of a lot better chance at winning it seems.

Edit: *yawn*

 

[Code Lyon]

I guess I can go a few more friendlies cuz im bored as well.

@Levitas: I noticed that with the Usmash and Lucas cuz that's how Code killed me most the time during the research. Plus Delfino and Lylat aren't gimmicky Lucas just has a heck of a lot better chance at winning it seems.

The room is up

 

[Chuee]

Lyon: Most ranges where he can punish it at are the range where Fox shouldn't even be using lasers. Most of the time Fox uses lasers at long range.
Running up to me and hitting is pretty much approaching.

 

[#HBC | J]

Nice matches Code they were fun *yawn* I am getting tired such a long day today for me.

So Chuee what do you think is our best Counterpick against Fox?

 

[Code Lyon]

Lyon: Most ranges where he can punish it at are the range where Fox shouldn't even be using lasers. Most of the time Fox uses lasers at long range.
Running up to me and hitting is pretty much approaching.

Fox should be using his lasers at mid-range....

 

[Lightning93]

To my understanding, mid-range is about where Marth should be camping. If Lucas doesn't have any moves that outranges his magnet at that point... why shouldn't I be using lasers, especially if I can SH them? Fox should be using lasers at any range but close range in this MU, taking into account Lucas isn't using PSI magnet. If he is, then we empty SH, and from there we have two options:

1. Punish PSI magnet because we did not hit it.
2. Run back, don't approach.

We can approach if we feel lucky, but you can punish us with tilts, PWG, stuffs like that. Essentially, we create a situation where we can remain safe without risking much. Not saying it's MU-breaking or anything, we have this same bait and retreat strategy for many other character's as well. Even if it doesn't guarantee any damage, it can guarantee safety as long as we remain out of the opponent's hitboxes.

 

[Code Lyon]

To my understanding, mid-range is about where Marth should be camping. If Lucas doesn't have any moves that outranges his magnet at that point... why shouldn't I be using lasers, especially if I can SH them? Fox should be using lasers at any range but close range in this MU, taking into account Lucas isn't using PSI magnet. If he is, then we empty SH, and from there we have two options:

1. Punish PSI magnet because we did not hit it.
2. Run back, don't approach.

We can approach if we feel lucky, but you can punish us with tilts, PWG, stuffs like that. Essentially, we create a situation where we can remain safe without risking much. Not saying it's MU-breaking or anything, we have this same bait and retreat strategy for many other character's as well. Even if it doesn't guarantee any damage, it can guarantee safety as long as we remain out of the opponent's hitboxes.

What do you think about the stages Light?

 

[#HBC | J]

hmmm it seems though the strategy is repetitive and can be guessed plus the PSI cancel technique works to help and punish though I only pull the magnet last second cuz the blaster doesn't do that much damage so if you take the little bit of damage Lucas can punish Fox

 

[prOAPC]

tell me what to do vs his dair and utilt combos, how to sdi and that kind of stuff...

 

[Code Lyon]

What? If we force to approach we have many options... 2 frames of landing lag from SHDL/SHL/SHTLing sooo idk what you are talking about J (it's pretty hard to punish 2 frames)

EDIT: DI The Utilt Up and the direction the Fox is facing. Don't challenge us head on after Utilt you will most likely to get grabbed because we expect Nair to try and interrupt our Utilt string.

 

[#HBC | J]

Ah I see where you are coming from Code

and the Utilt juggling combo is soo aggravating cuz it's hard to DI out of and I know I use Nair to try and interrupt but it rarely works and my percentage goes to 50% by the time im out :/

 

[Code Lyon]

Yea idk if you DI it right (or DIing it all).

 

[#HBC | J]

I try and DI but lol xD It doesn't seem like it cuz I couldn't get out but now I know how I think I can DI the right way next time.

 

[Chuee]

At mid-range, you shouldn't be punishing magnet that often.
Also, using an empty SH gives the magnet time to cool down, that won't help you punish.
For CP's I'd bo Brinstar. The platform helps magnet not get punished, plus it's Lucas' best stage.

 

[#HBC | J]

Ah we forgot Brinstar!!! T-T

Though it's obvious it is Lucas' stage i'll go add that one to the list.

Edit: Fixed with RC and JJ being added

 

[Code Lyon]

By the time you notice we didn't lase that's when you are gonna drop the magnet and that's we punish, that's enough time.

 

[#HBC | J]

Um I am not gonna say anything in the Magnet talk no more cuz it is all kindof spur of the moment and has variables based on the indiviual brawler. Lucas could dodge it and punish but Fox can also punish or run away or approach. It really is just what MIGHT happen in the battle. cuz against code sometimes his Laser technique worked others I punished.

 

[Chuee]

If we drop it the moment we see the AD, you shouldn't punish it.

 

[#HBC | J]

hmm we need more Fox and Lucas mains to speak up about the Stages It doesn't have to be about the list I made just some opinons :D

 

[Levitas]

wait, who said nair to interrupt utilt juggles? DI that crap.

0_o it seems like there aren't many people who know this matchup well here, which is a bit problematic...

 

[#HBC | J]

I guess I am just trying to contribute. I said I tried to Nair it a couple times but got punished....severly. I tried DI ing but I still couldn't get out xD

I am waiting for the Yoshi, Jiggs, Peach, and a few others MU discussions cuz I know alot about those.. I am only trying to help by doing research on this by what I can.

Btw for Frame Data discussions I am out of those cuz I know nothing about those Frame data is too complicated for me. I just battle.