The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[rPSIvysaur]

Lol @ Fox camping Lucas.

I'll pivot grab all of those approches. Fox falls too fast for all of those approahces to not be pivot grabbed by Lucas. N-air and F-air may be hard, but F-air won't hit us and we'll stuff N-air with PKF most likely.

 

[Chuee]

Or we can shieldgrab Nair, I think we can.

 

[Code Lyon]

Lol @ Fox camping Lucas.QUOTE]

ok you absorb one laser so I can exploit the lag you get from doing so...


Also how does Fair not hit if I'm falling down with it?

And you can pivot grab and life's question is solved what happens with I SH but do nothing and move back while you try to pivot grab?

You miss,then I hit?

You guys keep saying things like you are robots.

Why would I nair from so far away you would PKF it?

 

[Lightning93]

Fox is arguably one of the best damage-rackers in the game. (If you want me to explain I can.) If all Lucas has is the occasional PKF and up-tilt "lock", I don't quite understand how he can keep up...

Also, I don't get how you guys can't see how us forcing you to use PSI magnet puts you at a disadvantage. Unlike Fox's reflector, PSI magnet, if hit, can not be canceled with a jump, and if we're approaching with SHSL/SHDL you have to either anticipate a punish, or hold out your magnet correct? This situation forces a response from you, and since none of Lucas' moves outranges his magnet, Fox creates sort of a safety zone for himself. We either wait for you to lower your magnet, or you have already lowered your magnet allowing us to retreat with more lasers. We don't even have to shoot your magnet as some of our laser options allow us to shoot over your head. Either way, this causes you to worry a bit about your defensive ability, which is the whole point of lasers in this MU. In very little MUs are Fox's lasers supposed to rack the majority of damage.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lrn2MagnetCancel

You don't know Lucas. People need to stop assuming that Lucas' Magnet is like Gdubs Bucket.

Lucas will WBPKF to stuff approaches. He'll go at you then retreat, it will stop n-air from getting us.

If you SH with nothing, then you're landing will be pivot grabbed. What now?

If you're falling down with f-air, then I'm going to pivot grab it.

 

[#HBC | J]

Lrn2MagnetCancel

You don't know Lucas. People need to stop assuming that Lucas' Magnet is like Gdubs Bucket.

Lucas will WBPKF to stuff approaches. He'll go at you then retreat, it will stop n-air from getting us.

If you SH with nothing, then you're landing will be pivot grabbed. What now?

If you're falling down with f-air, then I'm going to pivot grab it.

Definetely seconds this

 

[Chuee]

Wrong.
We can cancel magnet with a jump.
Also we rack damage with Dair, which does 30%+ from one combo, Uair which can lead into Utilt(does allot since you fall fast), and Fair. Lucas actually has amazing damage racking.

 

[Code Lyon]

You don't know Fox. People need stop assuming that if you Pivot Grab what fox does it becomes a 0:100 match-up.

Fox will not Nair sooo improperly or so off that you just PKF him. Lucas tether grabs right? PSI that means we can Nair>Jab on his shield or actually Utilt, OR JUST MOVE AWAY.

If I SH with nothing and don't land in range of pivot grab will miss. What now?

If pivot grab everything I try it becomes predictable, I punish.


I'm gonna keep talking to you like this because you can't seem to figure out the defition of the word PREDICTABILITY.

P.S. No offense to other Lucas's.

 

[Chuee]

lmao when did we say it was 0-100.
Also Nair isn't safe on our shield.

 

[Code Lyon]

Chuee it's kinda implied when either you can't approach or you can't camp. What I'm saying is it's not impossible to approach or camp.

But PSI says pivot grab stops all means of approach.

Chuee I disagree it probably is cause Late Nair has frame advantages over tether grabbers and Zelda (lol Zelda).

 

[Chuee]

Who says we have to shieldgrab it?

 

[Code Lyon]

Who says we have to shieldgrab it?

Then what you're next fastest option? because I defiantly know it's not OoS Usmash (lol obvious).

Also Fox's jab comes out frame 2.

It takes 2 frames I think for shield to drop (but I heard 7 from someone else but I don't believe that)

 

[Chuee]

Fair OoS is good.
Nair OoS is good.
Dair OoS is good.

 

[Code Lyon]

Fair OoS is good.
Nair OoS is good.
Dair OoS is good.

No.
No.
No.

N-air
Hit On:
- 5-6
etc.

F-air
Hit On:
- 9-11

D-air
- 4-7


All jumps in brawl take 4 frames.

So, OoS Nair Frames add up to 2+4+5=11 Frames of punishment time. Fox's Jab comes out on two.
OoS Fair Frames add up to 2+4+9=15 frames of punishment time. Fox's Jab comes out on two.
OoS Dair Frames add up to 2+4+4=10 frames of punishment time. Fox's Jab comes out on two.

Yea we are safe on you're shield. You best unsafe option is to OoS Dair.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol, I was just saying that Pivot Grab does stop a lot of your approaches. Of course a lot of player skill is involved and prediction, it's just that Lucas' pivot grab will make it hard for Fox to approach without being punished.

Code Lyon, you fail at frame data.

 

[Chuee]

You can jump OoS without dropping your shield......................

 

[Code Lyon]

lol, I was just saying that Pivot Grab does stop a lot of your approaches. Of course a lot of player skill is involved and prediction, it's just that Lucas' pivot grab will make it hard for Fox to approach without being punished.

Code Lyon, you fail at frame data.

Lol I do fail at frame data >.<

Idk about the shield drop thing. I'm sure about the jumps though. I got the lucas frame data frame here.

I still know Fox's jab comes out on 2 though.

EDIT: Chuee then just subtract two from the total fox can still jab.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

You do realize I have the frame data for Lucas, right?

Alright so looking at it, Fox N-air has -38 advantage. Which means U-smash OoS does work, lol.
F-air: -15 which means Grab OoS
D-air: -52 (probably wrong) so probably n-air OoS. But if you see them come at you with this, just run and pivot grab .
B-air: -37 on AC. U-smash OoS.

 

[Chuee]

Lol Usmash Oos.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lol Usmash Oos.

 

[Code Lyon]

WHOA! Where did you get Fox's Nair has a -38? SCOTU is slipping.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's in your frame data thread.

It's also a sex kick, which means lingering hitbox, which means unsafe on shield.

 

[Code Lyon]

Are you talking about a Early Nair?

also do you mind linking me? T.T I can't find our frame data thread.

And I mean doing the Nair where soon as it comes out you hit the ground like .0000000271823 seconds later. (lol)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258564

 

[Code Lyon]

Oh I stand down on my case. >.<

Idk why we still pull off Nair>Jab on people but whateva I admit I'm wrong.

 

[#HBC | J]

idiocy erased =P

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

^

Don't reply to that plz.

fox barely wins

 

[#HBC | J]

Thank u for agreeing fox doesn't win but I think 65%-35% was fair

How would u rate it pink?

If I goofed up my theories lemme know ^^" I usually get caught up in thinking I have a good idea when I forget a key fact or don't explain or it has already been said

 

[lil cj]

60-40 Lucas

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'd like to see exactly what PF says.

 

[#HBC | J]

What do u think of my theory psi? Bad or good? It seems to work for me but probably only me xD

 

[Lightning93]

Okay, taking from the discussion of the more experienced and knowledgeable players who I believe used more facts than theories, this is how I see the MU should be portrayed so far.

Both character's can damage rack equally and fast.
Fox has it easier in terms of ability to kill, but considering percentages of death this area is close to even.
Gimping wise is about even...
Both characters take away the others' far-range game.
Still a bit iffy about what approaching looks like from either character and how well punishing works, but for the heck of it lets give Lucas this advantage.

The MU is at least 50:50 imo...

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What do u think of my theory psi? Bad or good? It seems to work for me but probably only me xD

I know that you're eager to help, but you should work on looking at the game more in depth and lurk some more before you make assumptions.

Play around with the game some more, go into various character boards and just lurk and learn AT's and their applications before you start to theorycraft.

 

[~Nasty~]

Bandit, i don't think you realize that when discussing a MU, you have to take into account that both players are at the absolute highest level of play, this means a level to that of m2k vs ally, which no lucas is on that level.

Now, that being said, i agree with Pink Fresh, the MU is slight advantage for fox. Also, here's two matches i had with CT at pound 4, sry for the lacluster quality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGF8gGWACBM <~~ Game 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pqpeRT6WDI&feature=channel <~~ Game 2

As you see from game 1, fox can combo the **** outta lucas, granted i made quite a few mistakes.

 

[TKD]

Fox doesn't suck.

Fox has a decent close-range game similar to Mario's (quick, not disjointed, short range moves), walking release chain-grab and release into dash usmash. Assuming the match is being played at top level, the player should know how to perform this consistently.

Fox doesn't **** most low tier characters like other high tier chars do because of the properties of his close range game, but being KOed from grabs at a very reasonable % doesn't sound good.

Oh and I don't know this match-up, but aren't at all impressed by Lucas either.

 

[#HBC | J]

kk gotcha I am still new to the boards so ima have to lurk around but I did fight a few foxes and that's what I saw in common Oh well I messed up just gotta do better next time.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Okay, taking from the discussion of the more experienced and knowledgeable players who I believe used more facts than theories, this is how I see the MU should be portrayed so far.

Both character's can damage rack equally and fast.
Fox has it easier in terms of ability to kill, but considering percentages of death this area is close to even.
Gimping wise is about even...
Both characters take away the others' far-range game.
Still a bit iffy about what approaching looks like from either character and how well punishing works, but for the heck of it lets give Lucas this advantage.

The MU is at least 50:50 imo...

this is broad but basically the MU.

though lucas has an easier time gimping fox, than fox does lucas.

approaching is a ***** for fox but he can play a campy, defensive game and draw the approach. his dash speed alone makes it easy for him to get in and out of our safe zones, which is terrible, when fox can force whiffs and mistakes in spacing w/ his speed alone.

it's pretty even but guaranteed kill setups @ about 110 is just stupid .

FFFFFF school time

 

[prOAPC]

i lost to a Fox in my last tourney, last saturday. Is the 3th time we meet each other in a tournament, the record is 1-2 his favor. What really hurts me in this MU, is that i can't SDI, his dair combos really hurts me

 

[#HBC | J]

Bandit's fail speculation of this MU AFTER reading both threads alot more *eyes hurt* @_@

So im just gonna keep this simple and try and not theorykraft.

1. In air - Fairly Even
2. Ground - Fox
3. Projectiles - Lucas (kindof obvious)
4. Off stage - Lucas
5. Grab combos - Fox
6. Gimping - Lucas (just by a hair)

Again sorry for theorycrafting but with more research it's fairly even :/ (I hope I got this right this time )

50-50

 

[Chuee]

You don't put a % sign in MU ratios. Just so ya know.