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The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

A2ZOMG

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Norfair...funny that both characters will survive really long on that stage especially if you don't kill vertically.

But Samus camps more...then the question is is Samus's D-tilt better than Lucas's U-air or the other way around for vertical kills?
 

rPSIvysaur

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Samus' D-tilt is better. Lucas U-air is dissapoint when it comes to *almost* killing. But that's from the ground. If you can do it near the blast zones it (which is easy on Norfair) it can easily get a kill around 100. @ The camping, I'd say to go here if DMG says it's possible to run away from Samus.

I wouldn't ban Picto, it isn't a stage that horribly wrecks Lucas against Samus, sure she can camp, but we generally don't want to be pressured to any ledge, and Picto is a great stage, because Samus can't just retreat to a ledge to make us pressured away. Also the offstage of Pictochat is very small which means there's a much less chance that Lucas will be getting gimped seeing it's near impossible to actually be below the stage and not already be dead. IMO Picto helps Lucas more moar.
 

HailCrest

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Um, just a question.. why are we debating dtilt vs. uair? If we're below samus shouldn't we be Usmashing that lag?

Stupid question because there's probably something I don't know about Lucas v Samus on Norfair yet.

Anyway, can you drop through the platforms on Norfair? If you can't, that makes Usmashing from underneath platforms that much safer.
 

rPSIvysaur

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The right ledge screws with everyone's recovery. IMO the right ledge will be hurting Lucas more since he can't tether it either.
 

IsmaR

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The right edge plays well for Samus. She can wall jump under it, leave bombs/roll of the edge then Up B back up, stall until the platform sinks, and can poke from under it with U-tilt/missiles/F-air/N-air. I also like it when random platforms come from the sides of the stage and you can just keep Z-airing them back until it goes away/they fall.
 

DMG

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I can't do a DMG summary for this matchup. I don't know it well personally.
 

Uzima (Uzi)

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first thing

lucas may have the absorber attack which stops fox's distance laser camping, but a good fox will still be able and should be able to still get a good deal of laser damage in a match.

as for recovery/gimping i got to give it to fox as well, its close, but fox has a slight advantage in this area in my mind.
well timed reflector stall will stop the thunder gimp, and with raising fair it also makes gimping fox harder fox lucas.

as for gimping lucas as for its a bit in fox's favor, many times i have jumped out with a fair and managed to stop a douple jump and then end the tripple jump attempt with a raisint fair and then end it by pushing the thunder away with a shine.

not easy mind you but easier for fox than for lucas

just my 2 cents.

more knowledgable fox mains will show up soon after me : P
 

Lightning93

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Landing behind Lucas' shield makes the approaching game for Fox a ton easier imo.

I haven't played many good Lucas players, but to my knowledge he doesn't have a very reliable way of dealing damage and being able to lead into kills. Upsmash hits very dependently on the situation, and I seem to only die from a quick fsmash or the occasional down-b. B-air can spike yes... but its sweet spot isn't exactly all the sweet for gimping Fox out of illusion or rising Fair...

I think it would help for you guys to start describing what you have on us...

Best Lucas experience I have was fighting this person @ 21 minutes and 14 seconds. I won't claim anything regarding her skill level, I'll let the more knowledgeable Lucas players decide that.
 

HelpR

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fox is almost all about experience. If you know how to fight the character this matchup will generally be significantly easier on you, however, if you've never fought fox, expect to get *****.

lucas shuts down fox's main far range option, being to laser. if you're far from fox, it's generally safe to magnet, forcing fox to approach. However, conversely, fox could be purported to shut down lucas' far range options as well with his reflector. You NEED To mix up your pk fires in this matchup, if you get predictable in this matchup with your specials, expect to have a bit of difficulty dealing damage.

however, lucas and fox at close range really seems to be a matter of: who makes the first mistake, in which, whoever gets to punish first gets the chance to stack on anywhere from 10-40% damage on his opponent. dont haphazardly nair or dair into fox in this matchup, as fox is one of the few characters who has options for when people land behind him as well as when you land in front of him. Whoever approaches first in this matchup is definitely at a disadvantage unless the opponent does not take advantage of the situation.

Fox has several approaches, however, his most damaging by far is his dair to utilt

If fox decides to dair next to you and you shield, your reaction should be different depending on where he lands, and where he's facing when he lands.

If fox lands in front of you, facing you: jab, ftilt, dtilt, all really fair game. I generally go for the jab. keep in mind that he can still jab you back so be quick.

If fox lands in front of you, but facing away from you: jab, ftilt, however, if you mess up your window of opportunity, expect to get utilted, as the hitbox behind fox in utilt is the first part to come out.

If fox lands behind you, facing towards you: expect a jab, ftilt, or nair, utilt is not really a good option here. if he's inside of lucas, you can try to jab, the reverse hitbox will likely catch fox, or if you're daring, try to ftilt.

If fox lands behind you, facing away from you: expect an utilt. just shield this, you can try to spotdodge or roll away, but there's not really much of a way you can deal damage to fox in this situation.

Fox's other approaches include: SH bair (a good way to punish errant approaches, as well as a magnificent spacing tool.) and... that's really all I remember... I know there's more but i just woke up like half an hour ago lol.

expect to die to fox around 90% if you get hit by an errant usmash, however, you can survive significantly longer if you're smart. just watch how he approaches and dont get caught by his tricks.

you can kill fox as early as 90% with a well placed fsmash, so try not to decay it if you can help it.

dont know what to else to say about this matchup. i've fought like 4 foxes but most of the time it comes down to who spaces better. habits are a really bad thing in this matchup, and what i said should only be taken as a guideline moreso then the rule.

50-50, they knock each other's long range options out, however, with smart play you can still use your long range attacks on each other. in close range it's usually a matter of who messes up first, and that person will be punished for a rather large amount of damage.

stages: BAN HALBERD. fox has a pretty good stage selection, and few stages mess him up... Other then lylat. expect him to ban lylat. japes is a good fox CP, however, one really underhanded tactic is one used against most low tier mains:

Simply pick random, then pick pikachu, sheik, or pit. pikachu and sheik can 0 to death fox, but don't use them if you have no experience, you WILL get wrecked.

pit shuts down fox's long range options, and if you manage to get fox off the stage, a flurry of arrows will most certainly keep him off.

fox is a solid character, and he'd be top tier if it wasnt for how he has several god awful matchups, most attributed solely to his incredible fall speed. the only other character that shares his plight as a low weight fast faller is sheik

NOW I SHALL MAKE FOOD AND GO OUT INTO THE BLIZZARD.
 

Lightning93

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If fox lands behind you, facing towards you: expect a jab, ftilt, or nair, utilt is not really a good option here. if he's inside of lucas, you can try to jab, the reverse hitbox will likely catch fox, or if you're daring, try to ftilt.

If fox lands behind you, facing away from you: expect an utilt. just shield this, you can try to spotdodge or roll away, but there's not really much of a way you can deal damage to fox in this situation.
Don't forget the fact we can still grab you. If anyone shields my attack as I land behind him/her I'll most likely grab, as I'm already expecting them to block my follow-up.
expect to die to fox around 90% if you get hit by an errant usmash, however, you can survive significantly longer if you're smart. just watch how he approaches and dont get caught by his tricks.

you can kill fox as early as 90% with a well placed fsmash, so try not to decay it if you can help it.
Percentages don't mean as much when you don't have viable ways of forcing a situation where you can land the killing move. Fox's upsmash is very versatile, and can be used out of combos or while running. His dsmash also comes out of Jab>Jab>Cancel or Dair, and can be used to put Lucas at a bad angle for gimps. If Fox is leading how can Lucas achieve that kill? Lucas' fsmash has rather underwhelming versatility imo... I mostly see it being used for punishes.
Simply pick random, then pick pikachu, sheik, or pit. pikachu and sheik can 0 to death fox, but don't use them if you have no experience, you WILL get wrecked.
Shiek doesn't start her lock until 36%, and even then ftilt itself is expected to see coming. Both Pika's CG and Shiek's Ftilt lock deal massive damage, but with proper DI Fox can survive. Heed this man's advice, if you have no skill in using either character, don't use them if you're going up against a respectable Fox player.
pit shuts down fox's long range options, and if you manage to get fox off the stage, a flurry of arrows will most certainly keep him off.
Interesting counterpick... but imo the MU is still around even. Since this isn't Pit discussion I won't go into details XD. Arrows are only good for gimping if you manage to catch Fox while he's using his rising Fair, otherwise shine stalling will keep us safe. In addition, Fox can DI up a bit after being hit by an arrow, giving us a bit of a pop which actually helps us if we are near the ledge.
NOW I SHALL MAKE FOOD AND GO OUT INTO THE BLIZZARD.
Don't do it at the same time!

Besides what I said in this post I agree with what you said. Although it's not exactly the entirety of the MU... I believe both character's close range game can be elaborated further...
 

Chuee

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Don't forget the fact we can still grab you. Nair OoS
If anyone shields my attack as I land behind him/her I'll most likely grab, as I'm already expecting them to block my follow-up.Percentages don't mean as much when you don't have viable ways of forcing a situation where you can land the killing move. Fox's upsmash is very versatile, and can be used out of combos or while running. Nothing combos into Usmash that cant be SDIed out of.
His dsmash also comes out of Jab>Jab>Cancel or Dair, and can be used to put Lucas at a bad angle for gimps. If Fox is leading how can Lucas achieve that kill? Lucas' fsmash has rather underwhelming versatility imo... I mostly see it being used for punishes.Shiek doesn't start her lock until 36%, and even then ftilt itself is expected to see coming. Both Pika's CG and Shiek's Ftilt lock deal massive damage, but with proper DI Fox can survive. Heed this man's advice, if you have no skill in using either character, don't use them if you're going up against a respectable Fox player.Interesting counterpick... but imo the MU is still around even. Since this isn't Pit discussion I won't go into details XD. Arrows are only good for gimping if you manage to catch Fox while he's using his rising Fair, otherwise shine stalling will keep us safe. In addition, Fox can DI up a bit after being hit by an arrow, giving us a bit of a pop which actually helps us if we are near the ledge.Don't do it at the same time!

Besides what I said in this post I agree with what you said. Although it's not exactly the entirety of the MU... I believe both character's close range game can be elaborated further...
Killing isn't easy, but its not like we should even have a lot of trouble killing Fox. Get him offstage with a Fair or Ftilt, punish his recovery with a Dsmash.
 

Lightning93

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Killing isn't easy, but its not like we should even have a lot of trouble killing Fox. Get him offstage with a Fair or Ftilt, punish his recovery with a Dsmash.
Getting us offstage doesn't guarantee anything... especially if we DI up... what makes you assume we have to recover into your dsmash?

I would be worried about Nair OoS say if I was fighting Luigi... even if it is possible for Lucas to counter a grab with it. This doesn't change the fact Fox can be completely safe by forcing you to avoid an up-tilt.

Also don't expect your SDI to be a godsend against Dair>Upsmash. I can see it saving you maybe if I catch you with a Dair midair... but otherwise... I don't see it happening. At top level play you may see it more often than not... but even so JJC>Dsmash is a frame trap which can't be SDI'd. (I think this works on Lucas, some characters are immune to it, please excuse me if I'm wrong.)

And I would like to argue that Fox's pivot grab>Lucas'.
 

Chuee

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Getting us offstage doesn't guarantee anything... especially if we DI up... what makes you assume we have to recover into your dsmash?
Ok, then you cant do anything to us offstage... especially if we DI up. Anyways Fox recovers mostly with Phantasm. If you recover high with it we can Usmash.

I would be worried about Nair OoS say if I was fighting Luigi... even if it is possible for Lucas to counter a grab with it. This doesn't change the fact Fox can be completely safe by forcing you to avoid an up-tilt.
wat
Nair comes out in like 5 or less frames (think its 3). Your main approach option is Dair, which has ending lag. I dont see what else you would use that can get behind my shield.

Also don't expect your SDI to be a godsend against Dair>Upsmash. I can see it saving you maybe if I catch you with a Dair midair... but otherwise... I don't see it happening. At top level play you may see it more often than not... but even so JJC>Dsmash is a frame trap which can't be SDI'd. (I think this works on Lucas, some characters are immune to it, please excuse me if I'm wrong.)
Thats fine, we can always shield the Dair and punish it. Jab cancel Dsmash huh? I dont remember Fox's Dsmash KOing that early.

And I would like to argue that Fox's pivot grab>Lucas'.
Irrelevant
10BrownFurries
 

Lightning93

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Why are you claiming irrelevance when your fellow Lucas players are bringing up this point? Fox's pivot wave grab is rather nonpunishable if whiffed, and although Lucas has considerable range on his pivot grab Fox IS fast enough to punish back.

The way you are arguing is focusing on very situational details... Nair comes out in 3 frames? Our jab comes out in 2... oh wait but you can shield it, oh wait but we can grab you, oh wait but you can OoS Nair... etc etc...

In general Fox players can avoid recovering into any of Lucas' smashes... Illusion is used often, but combined with rising Fair and shine stalling the heights at which we can recover varies each time. Sure, it's possible we can recover into your smashes, but don't expect it to happen often enough to sway the MU any further in either character's favor...

And please don't repeat my arguments if you don't have specific examples... you were stating getting us offstage somehow makes Lucas' ability to kill more consistent, when in reality it only increases this factor by a small margin.

Dair does not necessarily have landing lag, it can be auto canceled. Bair and Nair both have hitboxes that can be used to hit the back if your shield... and SHAD>Up-tilt gets us behind your shield easily...

Dsmash can kill surprisingly early considering the angle it sends you at... I don't believe any of Lucas' onstage moves can send Fox at the same angle, but I could be wrong. Both characters have the ability to gimp each other, but Fox's dsmash makes this task easier imo...

^ Not that this matters significantly as individual arguments, we should try to generalize the MU a bit more.
 

Chuee

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Why are you claiming irrelevance when your fellow Lucas players are bringing up this point? Fox's pivot wave grab is rather nonpunishable if whiffed, and although Lucas has considerable range on his pivot grab Fox IS fast enough to punish back.
because the points you brought up are irrelevant to the MU.

The way you are arguing is focusing on very situational details... Nair comes out in 3 frames? Our jab comes out in 2... oh wait but you can shield it, oh wait but we can grab you, oh wait but you can OoS Nair... etc etc...

In general Fox players can avoid recovering into any of Lucas' smashes... Illusion is used often, but combined with rising Fair and shine stalling the heights at which we can recover varies each time. Sure, it's possible we can recover into your smashes, but don't expect it to happen often enough to sway the MU any further in either character's favor...
The height at which you recover doesn't make a difference. Dsmash beats you if you try to grab the ledge with phantasm. Shinestalling? Doesn't change the fact that you still have to use phantasm SOMETIME, and phantasm's start up is enough for me to start a smash. I never said it swayed the MU. One character having better kill moves never sways ratios hardly.

And please don't repeat my arguments if you don't have specific examples... you were stating getting us offstage somehow makes Lucas' ability to kill more consistent, when in reality it only increases this factor by a small margin.
I know, but we know our character has trouble killing. We should know by now ways to get kills since our main kill moves are pretty slow.

Dair does not necessarily have landing lag, it can be auto canceled. Bair and Nair both have hitboxes that can be used to hit the back if your shield... and SHAD>Up-tilt gets us behind your shield easily...
You can't AC Dair in a SH. Bair and Nair can't land you behind our shield. SHAD can work until you get predictable with it. Also, Fox's utilt is safe on shield?

Dsmash can kill surprisingly early considering the angle it sends you at... I don't believe any of Lucas' onstage moves can send Fox at the same angle, but I could be wrong. Both characters have the ability to gimp each other, but Fox's dsmash makes this task easier imo...
Both characters can gimp each other, but it shouldn't happen enough to greatly effect the ratio.

^ Not that this matters significantly as individual arguments, we should try to generalize the MU a bit more.
10Foxtails
EDIT: Screw navy blue
 

Tyr_03

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Fox is good. But I haven't played any really good ones so idk what to say on this one.
 

rPSIvysaur

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you can say that again...



... oh, lol. I agree. pivot grab in this MU is gRAPE

i had a fox in my pools at pound 4. CT iirc... if i can find the replays, would u guys want me to upload them?
I've played CT in tourney. I beat his fox so he CPd Snake. :/

Every approach I've seen listed is beaten by pivot grab.

Comparing Foxs pivot grab is not the same as comparing Lucas'. iTouch Il talk more later.
 

lil cj

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Ive played a really good Fox before on wifi.
It was my first time so I didnt know what to expect.
At first the dair approach to utilt and dair to dsmash combo
was ****, but once I figured out Fox then this MU became easy.
I realized his approaches are very predictable and I found it
easy to get damage on him too, our utilt chain can rack up damage easily
in the lower percents. Also, Fox only has one reliable kill move so he
has just as much trouble at killing as Lucas at times.
I need more Fox experience to fully understand this MU
and back up my opinions but from that experience with that Fox
player, I would have to say we have a slight advantage over Fox
due to our easier time killing him than him killing us.
 

~Pink Fresh~

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gawd dammit chuee

you kill me when you argue.

if we dsmash @ the ledge fox can still phantasm to the edge.

rising fair loses to random **** like pk fire, which is actually the best option to rack up damage while fox is offstage.

The MU would be even, but fox just racks up damage + kills easier (lol GR usmash).

But if lucas has the lead, then fox is mad.

also for whatever reason fox gets ***** by dair > fsmash (is his stumble animation longer or something?)
 

#HBC | J

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For me the Fox matchup is easier than the Falco matchup. Though it's still hard with a few of the combos Fox mains have worked out.

The best advice that has helped me was spacing with PKF also keeping air fighting is critical. If you stay on the ground you most likely might be caught in a ground combo that leads to a nasty air finsh if your dodge and spacing game is not adequate to match that of the Fox your going against. Idk if im reiterating what has already been said or this theory doesn't work for others but it worked for me when I battled a Fox main. (then he pulled out MK and I was done)

Sorry if im late to the convo but just found this thread.
 

Code Lyon

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Ive played a really good Fox before on wifi.
It was my first time so I didnt know what to expect.
At first the dair approach to utilt and dair to dsmash combo
was ****, but once I figured out Fox then this MU became easy.
I realized his approaches are very predictable and I found it
easy to get damage on him too, our utilt chain can rack up damage easily
in the lower percents. Also, Fox only has one reliable kill move so he
has just as much trouble at killing as Lucas at times.
I need more Fox experience to fully understand this MU
and back up my opinions but from that experience with that Fox
player, I would have to say we have a slight advantage over Fox
due to our easier time killing him than him killing us.
Lol Usmash being our only reliable killing move. Lol Wifi Fox.
Dair is not our only approach lol.
The rest is lol too.

But being serious 60:40 Fox.
 

Chuee

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Nah, 60-40 is a bit much. Dair isn't your only approach but you still have trouble approaching.
Fox's damage racking is good, but I don't think its really far enough above ours to give him an advantage. Killing, yeah his is much better. GR Usmash works? Never knew that. I think we can shieldgrab Usmash.
EDIT: Fair doesn't hit us, pretty sure we too short lol.
Running shield grab? I dont see that working.
WTF is a pivot wave grab.
SHAD is good but once we predict it get *****.
 
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