The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[rPSIvysaur]

lol Xyro is still mad that HTM got a 0-70 combo with N-air to U-air combo, lol JK.

Nice write up Xyro. You can expound more when you have more free time

 

[Chuee]

Ehh only thing I disagree with is Lucas' PKT recovery being just like Ness' =/

 

[heytallman]

Yeah, about Lucas' recovery thing, Allan, think back a long long time ago to crew battles in Beaumont....me vs Stiltz.....you yell "YOU'RE DEAD, YA LITTLE *****!" as I PK thunder back to the stage. You shut your F'ING MOUTH, YOU F'ING F'FACE!"

Also, for everyone else, once I was playing with him, and I grabbed him at like 50% on the platform on smashville, so we were kinda close to the blast zone, and I bthrow and it kills him. I'm like "wtf that was bad DI" and Xyro says "I DIDN'T DI BECAUSE I DIDN'T THINK IT WOULD KILL ME!!!!" lol get *****

 

[A2ZOMG]

I hate this matchup a lot. The main thing that Lucas can do in this matchup however is safely edgeguard Samus. She's floaty to the point where PK Thunder, and sometimes PK Fire are pretty easy to land on her offstage.

Otherwise Samus is just a pain in the *** to approach. Her Z-air can't be powershielded on reaction, and Samus outranges Lucas pretty solidly on most other moves. Yeah PK Fire can help deflect projectiles like Xyro said, but the **** Z-air is still too good.

And doing anything to Samus's shield in close range is risky if she knows when to Up-B...

 

[Xyro77]

Ehh only thing I disagree with is Lucas' PKT recovery being just like Ness' =/

its the same in the fact that i can tether to retether it and not be hit by it.

 

[Chuee]

It's not the same in the fact that no matter how far you knock me back I'm still getting back to the stage.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Stuff is missing.

Samus can punish our dair w/ Up B OoS.

When she is recovering, all she has to do is shoot a homing missle, and she'll be safe.

zair is affected by height, but that doesn't really matter for this MU, I just wanted to clear that up.

a ledge camping samus is hard to deal w/.

lol @ CS being her main way to kill. dtilt and gimps [dair, nair, zair,] are the two I see the most.

Pk fire does cancel zair [they clank], unless

samus can gimp lucas ONLY if he has to recover low or at slightly above stage height. Zair just ***** PKT.

Chuee that's not true lol.

and

why do i still have this christmas avy?

 

[IsmaR]

I disagree with Samus being easily edgeguarded. Bombs, U-air/N-air, and even Z-air/missiles/charge shots if you're far enough, can all clank with it or outprioritize it. Bomb stalling helps depending on the situation, but any Samus who doesn't use it well will get wrecked by PK Thunder.

Getting hit by PK Fire offstage/letting yourself get hit by it = lol.

As for CS being the main kill move, it's all about the mindgames with it. People who depend too much on reflecting/absorbing(lolpeoplewhoCPFoxagainstSamus) tend to either get cocky, or too protective. Her best KO move for this match up is B-air/D-air IMO. It's not that hard to land while Lucas is attempting to use a projectile/trying to recover.

 

[prOAPC]

nair combos ***** samus

pk freeze is good vs samus, she's floaty and can force an airdodge

while samus is hanging in the ledge, use dsmash, her ledge attacks won't hit you, and the dsmash will hit her if she tries to double jump+fair

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

dsmash @ ledge doesn't work lol.

I'll try to get NOID to post in here.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

IDK, but if she does ledge-hop f-air I'd just space an f-smash since Samus extends her hurtbox with her arm.

 

[NO-IDea]

There are tid bits of information you Lucas mains don't give out which make this MU easier.

SDIing the d-air will avoid the jab lock.
SDIing u-smash can save your life if you get hit by it. (It happens. Lylat is an annoying neutral against Lucas.)
Speaking of Lylat and platform stages in general, d-smash is a *****.
Speaking of d-smash, lol at using it as an edge-guard. The Samus can avoid the hitbox with usual planking and then punish the ending lag.
You can buffer shield before Lucas's 3rd jab connects.
You can buffer shield so d-tilt->f-smash NEVER connects.
At low percents, Samus can jab in between Lucas's d-tilt combos.
(The above statements involve good human reaction time obviously.)
PF already mentioned up+b OoS against approaching d-air.
Our d-smash outspaces all of your ground moves, even f-tilt. Don't be stupid.

On the other hand:

Lucas can SDI up the ledge-hop f-air and punish with u-air (I've died to this several times.)
Yes at the above, you can space a f-smash if the Samus chooses to land on stage with f-air.
Running and power shielding works as a legit approach as long as you know when to jump to avoid the grab. From jumping, you can do any aerial and it'll outpriotize dash attack or still be under z-air's hitbox close range.
(Don't air dodge into us as a way to avoid the z-air camping. A smart player (not even Samus exclusive) can punish this in absurd ways.)
F-air/u-air OoS is annoying.
N-air ***** our shield and as long as you FF it, you can power shield the incoming up+b OoS. (Of course, me knowing this will result in me mind gaming a pivot grab, or turn around jab canceling. But it's good to know regardless.)
What PF said about Lucas's recovery sums it up. Be above us when you recover, or you'll have to be lucky if you don't want to get gimped.

Otherwise, Samus can camp and if the player can predict correctly/play smart etc., Lucas can't approach. But, the issue is the times that Lucas does get in, it usually results in triple the damage output of Samus camping.

Both characters won't kill each other until 140%+ if they both DI well and know how to SDI and avoid kill moves/set-ups. I've had matches where we've both lived to 170% with PF. I've also had matches where I've gimped PF at less than 100%, only to lose the lead when he lands a surprise f-tilt near the edge of the stage.

What ends up happening is whoever has the percent lead controls the match. If Samus does, she can continue to camp instead of go for the kill move and ultimately a spaced z-air will result in a gimp against Lucas because of it's horizontal knockback. If Lucas has the percent lead, he can very well run around, power shield and wait to just punish a badly spaced z-air/missile cancel for more damage.

Assuming both players know the ins and outs of each other's characters (and their own), the MU is 55-45 Lucas. Just play smart and you have the tools to win.

(That last section is my opinion. The rest is fact.)

 

[rPSIvysaur]

SDIing the d-air will avoid the jab lock
SDIing u-smash can save your life if you get hit by it. (It happens. Lylat is an annoying neutral against Lucas.)
Speaking of Lylat and platform stages in general, d-smash is a *****.
Speaking of d-smash, lol at using it as an edge-guard. The Samus can avoid the hitbox with usual planking and then punish the ending lag.
You can buffer shield before Lucas's 3rd jab connects.
Are you sure it's the right character your thinking of?
You can buffer shield so d-tilt->f-smash NEVER connects.
I think your thinking of Ness O.O
At low percents, Samus can jab in between Lucas's d-tilt combos.
Lucas doesn't have d-tilt combos
(The above statements involve good human reaction time obviously.)
PF already mentioned up+b OoS against approaching d-air.
Our d-smash outspaces all of your ground moves, even f-tilt. Don't be stupid.
But we can sheild grab it right?

Thoughts in red.

 

[Levitas]

Actually shieldgrab might not be long enough to deal with dtilt if spaced >.>

 

[NO-IDea]

Yes. It's a lesser known fact, but if Samus SDIs down and away so she isn't juggled in the air by jab, she can buffer a shield before the last hit lands.

D-tilt->f-smash doesn't connect because the hitstun of d-tilt isn't significant. It's the small frame window between d-tilt and f-smash that is. Regardless, I've shielded f-smash and punished with f-tilt multiple times before. And therefore, it's information to consider if you want to put a ratio on this MU.

If you're applying shield pressure to a Samus (or any character) via n-air, you're going to follow-up with something, no? F-tilt, if shielded has ending lag. D-tilt and jab are slightly less punishable if predicted. And you haven't chained anything off of d-tilt before? =.=

Depends. If spaced wrong, you can. But otherwise, the hurtbox of d-smash spins the other way before your grab comes out. Unless you perfect shield it. But technically you can grab any ground move out of perfect shielding. Your grab sucks btw. If you shield our d-smash, or even our d-tilt, just punish with f-air.

 

[Chuee]

Chuee that's not true lol.

As long as you're not recovering really low you should make it back almost every time.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

And you haven't chained anything off of d-tilt before? =.=

D-tilt has a negative frame advantage on hit. The only way to get a d-tilt combo is to tipper it into a trip, in which you can't shield b/c your tripped.

 

[prOAPC]

dtilt-> fsmash only work if the opponent trips because of dtilt
ninja'd

 

[Veril]

Samus can't shieldgrab a d-tilt that hits her shield. Her grab is crap. Lucas can suffer double the frame disadvantage of d-tilt and still jab before Samus's grab comes out. (yes, in vBrawl...)

 

[prOAPC]

but she can jab you if she shield the dtilt
then again, her jab sucks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8

 

[Seagull Joe]

Samus can't shieldgrab a d-tilt that hits her shield. Her grab is crap. Lucas can suffer double the frame disadvantage of d-tilt and still jab before Samus's grab comes out. (yes, in vBrawl...)

You haven't played No-Idea. His Samus is high tier. He does crazy *** SDI and also Samus's grab eats spotdodges.

 

[Levitas]

uh, I meant if we shield her dtilt we might not get a free grab >.>

I think NO-IDea got that ...

 

[Veril]

shield pressure with d-tilt?

but she can jab you if she shield the dtilt
then again, her jab sucks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hmNU0b9L_8

Actually, you will still hit samus first.

Here's how I figured that one out:

d-tilt has -3 advantage on block BUT a +4 advantage on shield drop.
OOS Samus can jump, up-b, roll/dodge or grab.

Samus's grab is slow as **** (hits frame 17 >.<), so I'm gonna discount that as an OOS option here. Her up-b hits earliest on frame 5, so frame perfect it'll tie with Lucas's jab buffered out of d-tilt.

If samus does a shield drop jab, Lucas actually has 7 frames to respond, which is enough time to land an f-tilt. So d-tilt on shield to buffered f-tilt actually beats out any retaliatory action Samus can take other than up-b OOS.

Why d-tilt has so much shieldstun is a mystery to me...

You haven't played No-Idea. His Samus is high tier. He does crazy *** SDI and also Samus's grab eats spotdodges.

No matter how good he is he can't make Samus's grab faster. What I said is true. I didn't say it was practical, because playing Lucas isn't practical in the first place. It might come up however, if Samus techs attempts at dair spike combos and buffers a shield. Since the followup for those is to d-tilt trip or lock, its certainly a plausible scenario to d-tilt her shield.

And I know all about the crazy anti-Lucas SDI... especially SDIing to tech the up-smash (I discovered that trick btw)

 

[NO-IDea]

dtilt-> fsmash only work if the opponent trips because of dtilt
ninja'd

I do believe I stated d-tilt->f-smash never connects. Let me correct myself, it should only connect if you managed to trip. OTHERWISE, it never connects. Except people walking into this MU may not know this. Hence, just a tid bit of information that's useful.

uh, I meant if we shield her dtilt we might not get a free grab >.>

I think NO-IDea got that ...

I did. They did not. And again, your OoS f-air is ridiculous.

Also, I do agree Samus cannot shield grab Lucas's d-tilt. I would have figured that to be obvious. But, just like a typical response to MK's d-tilt or Marth's d-tilt, jump OoS and any options involving a jump do work. As does up+b OoS.

And while Lucas mains do know about the crazy SDI tricks (Veril), as they should because it's their character, I remind you that some Samus mains here do not, which may sway their opinion on the MU.

I still believe it to be 55-45 Lucas favor.

 

[Tyr_03]

I hate theory brawl.

I'll $5 MM any low tier player at this tournament
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=261409

and I'll beat all of you. So you should come and experience the ****.

 

[Veril]

I hate theory brawl.

w/e hate all you want. Theory Brawl sucks cause there's a frame disadvantage on most offensive action, whether on shield or on hit. Lucas's d-tilt is pretty unusual for having a shield drop advantage. Its something worth noting when you're playing someone with a slow grab...

D-tilt to f-tilt can't be punished with a shieldgrab by Samus if timed right. Its a frame trap. If Samus jumps out of her shield she'll get hit by the f-tilt before an aerial can come out. She can't grab cause her grab is too slow. Up-b isn't really safe on hit. She can jab after the f-tilt if she's frame perfect. Her jab sucks and the player is doing this on reaction + unable to buffer cause its post-shield drop.

 

[HailCrest]

Magnetpulls and PKT has been mentioned, not sure about ropesnake, but i think the samuses don't know about zapjump, or does that not affect the matchup in terms of lucas' recovery? ._.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

It helps because you pretty much have to recover high in this MU.

Chuee, I said that lol. If you're even slightly close to the stage level but still far out, then you're getting gimped.

 

[Tyr_03]

w/e hate all you want. Theory Brawl sucks cause there's a frame disadvantage on most offensive action, whether on shield or on hit. Lucas's d-tilt is pretty unusual for having a shield drop advantage. Its something worth noting when you're playing someone with a slow grab...

D-tilt to f-tilt can't be punished with a shieldgrab by Samus if timed right. Its a frame trap. If Samus jumps out of her shield she'll get hit by the f-tilt before an aerial can come out. She can't grab cause her grab is too slow. Up-b isn't really safe on hit. She can jab after the f-tilt if she's frame perfect. Her jab sucks and the player is doing this on reaction + unable to buffer cause its post-shield drop.

roll away.

 

[IsmaR]

Who doesn't know about ZapJump? lol

It's useful for getting back up high/guaranteeing you'll make it back, but it also is predictable. On top of that, it can give Samus time to charge her Charge Shot/spam missiles like hell in your direction, or even get a Z-air in if you're low enough/the Samus is quick enough.

Lucas' Z-air is a bit useful in this, but dangerous since Samus is such a ***** on the ledge. If you don't quickly get back on the stage, she could read you, get you with a B-air/U-air/D-air for a gimp, and could stall with Bombs (which also lead to an easy gimp).

 

[Veril]

roll away.

roll... with Samus

 

[Levitas]

Don't tell me you actually think that a samus standing next to a lucas in her shield can't get away. It's just forced yomi to retreat, which is pretty awesome without being super awesome.


For that matter, samus can jump out with an airdodge if timed right AND punish with zair. Not unwinnable.

 

[Tyr_03]

dude just roll away. trust me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

roll... with Samus

The best Lucas can do to punish that is a psychic PK Fire lol.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Stage Discussion time.

 

[Chuee]

Go Brinstar because brinstar is brinstar and I heard brinstar is cool.

 

[prOAPC]

Samus likes Battlefield and i think she dislikes Pictochat

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Here's how I see Pictochat:
1) A long *** stage that she can camp on and abuse the certain stage elements for more camping.
2) A stage with nearly no offstage game.

IMO, Lucas gets the better deal out of those two. Thoughts?

 

[prOAPC]

ban norfair

 

[Tokaio]

I wouldn't pick Pictochat...she can't camp there like mad, and her Z-air can go through some of the drawings.
In my opinion...
Strike FD, BF or Yoshi's (if the Lucas strikes first, strike BF 2nd)
CP: Brinstar...
Ban: FD or Pictochat imo
Samus likes all the stages we like. I wouldn't suggest picking Norfair or Jungle Japes, as they are really good stages for her too, but I wouldn't ban them against her either. Just pick whatever you're comfortable with I guess =/.