Legend of Zelda The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword - NO SPOILERS, USE THE SPOILER THREAD PLEASE

[Phantom7]

Hardly. They had a very strong Q4 this year, just not for the hardcore gamer. For casual gamers, Nintendo was great. NSMBW, Spirit Tracks, Bowser's Inside Story, the new Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, a new Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games, Wii Fit Plus... I could go on. Nintendo's Q4 lineup this year dominated.

Yup. A good amount of their hardcore products (Mario, Zelda, etc.) tend to get delayed, so don't expect all of the new announcements to come out the year they're announced.. That's not a bad thing, though.

Spirit Tracks? Casual game? Since when did Nintendo make a Zelda game targeting casual gamers? ST is a challenging adventure game and probably hasn't sold nearly as well to the casual gamers as it has hardcore, honestly.

Zelda Wii is coming out in 2010!

Don't wet yourself just yet though, I bet it's gonna get delayed.

Maybe not, but we'll never know. They would be disappointing a lot of fans by delaying it after they announced that it will be released in 2010 at the very beginning of the year.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Spirit Tracks? Casual game? Since when did Nintendo make a Zelda game targeting casual gamers? ST is a challenging adventure game and probably hasn't sold nearly as well to the casual gamers as it has hardcore, honestly.

The game's art direction is decidedly casual. It's no secret that hardcore gamers as a whole would prefer a realistic Zelda, but Nintendo used the Toon look anyway. Also, Zelda being playable was used as a huge selling point. ST was one giant ploy to get casuals into Zelda. Hell, the first five hours was ploddingly slow tutorial with puzzles that a three year old could figure out. The game was designed at the offset to be a casual gateway into Zelda.

Maybe not, but we'll never know. They would be disappointing a lot of fans by delaying it after they announced that it will be released in 2010 at the very beginning of the year.

Yes. Because disappointing fans with delays was such a huge concern with Nintendo for TP. Delaying a game so that its' quality is assured is much better than sticking to the original release and releasing a mediocre product.

 

[etecoon]

Since when did Nintendo make a Zelda game targeting casual gamers?

 

[KillerJawz]

Image

I see a lack of Twilight Princess, I think you linked the wrong game my good sir.

 

[etecoon]

they both work to some extent, but WW was more of an outreach to a different audience where as TP was "hey look guys we're trying to make OoT again"

 

[Spire]

Sean Malstrom's view on Zelda Wii

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2009/11/21/email-zelda-wii-structure/

I know you have lots of emails, but you certainly deserve to be
flooded lately. :D What Aonuma meant with structur was NOT making a
more story based Zelda. He meant breaking the typical overworld ->
dungeon -> overworld course. Breaking the old patterns of puzzles,
bosses and even the overall game course and world design is exactly
what the Zelda series needs right now to be fresh and more appealing
to the long time Zelda audience.

See here: http://www.gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=104845

Aonuma: “We’re making efforts regarding the total flow of the Zelda
game. So far, the basic flow of the Zelda games is you’re exploring a
field, you go to a dungeon, you conquer it and return to the field.
We’re looking at altering that traditional flow. That’s all I can
share, and I can’t say more until E3 next year.”

What you say about what Zelda Wii will become, a linear, story focused
Zelda, they already did this with Twilight Princess. And I don’t see,
why they should repeat this mistake. Besides Twilight Princess the
Zelda series never really was too story heavy.

And what you say about Super Guide is wrong as well. There was no word
yet, that Zelda Wii is going to use it (or is there?). And even if it
does, it doesn’t mean the game will become linear. Do you really
think, that Super Guide will play through the entire game for you? If
it will be used, it’s most likely just for certain puzzles or bosses.
As for the directions, there was always something in Zelda to guide
you where to go next, you don’t need a Super Guide to find the next
dungeon or whatever.

Altering the flow is translated to mean “Amazing Story!” and “OMG Plot Twists!” Remember, Nintendo developers keep trying to do this but Miyamoto keeps axing it.

Look at Sakamoto with Metroid: Other M. While he isn’t part of the Zelda Team, that way of thinking appears to be in many Nintendo developers.

I disagree with Aonuma’s analysis of the Zelda problem. When people complain about the ‘formula’, they do not complain about the dungeons and overworld. They are complaining about the “Amazing Story!” and “OMG Plot Twists” that are polluting Zelda. For example, Twilight Princess spent the first half of the game of Link finding a cat, doing ram herding, trying to find the kids, and going on a bug scavenger hunt when in dog form. This awful story and cliched plot twists are what is turning people off, I believe. All these bad habits began in Ocarina. This is why people say to stop using the Ocarina of Time formula. They do not say stop using the NES Zelda formula.

What I hear from Zelda fans is that they want a RICHER overworld with dungeons that are not in a linear order. I hear that everywhere.

Aonuma is saying he wants to do away with the ‘frame’ of the dungeons and overworld. What I hear from fans is just the opposite. The fans seem to be complaining that the dungeons are too linear and the overworld doesn’t seem much like an overworld. I get the impression that Zelda fans want more overworld, less linearity, which means less ‘cinematic story’ a “character plots” which increase linearity.

My take on how Zelda works with the dungeons and overworld was with the “Zelda as a Crucible” post. I believe the overworld acts as the standard of the game and the non-linearity illustrates that Link is weak and cannot go everywhere… at first. So he enters unpleasant dungeons, which are not supposed to be *fun* but are supposed to be challenging, and exits the dungeon stronger than when he entered. More of the overworld can be traveled.

I always fondly remember Zelda dungeons as places of pain from Zelda I up to the 3d Zeldas. Link would go through these ‘crucibles’ because when you stepped into the sunlight again, you’d get a true feeling of accomplishment.

Modern Zelda with its dungeons feel like a conveyor belt of levels. Dungeon 1. Dungeon 2. Dungeon 3. And the Overworld feels nothing more than a road to go from one dungeon to the next. I no longer feel I am in a rich world where I can enter crucibles (dungeons) and grow myself.

The Zelda Team has been consistent in one thing: driving Zelda into the ground since Ocarina. Probability says they will continue in that fashion.

I think Aonuma is misanalyzing fans’ complaints of the formula. In Aonuma’s mind, the formula is dungeons and overworld. In fans’ minds, the formula is the cliched “story” and the linearity that it brings.

What is going to occur is that Aonuma is going to do everything the fans do not want. Any chance of non-linearity of the dungeons is gone. The overworld will be gone. In its place will be “Linear Adventure” with “Amazing Story!” and many “OMG plot twists!” Everyone will be “WTF!” Hardcore gamers will wrongly blame all of Zelda Wii’s errors on Motion Plus and ‘casual gaming’ in general.

Sorry, but I am a pessimist on Zelda: Wii. Spirit Tracks (which I consider an absolute parody of the Zelda universe with choo choo trains and Zelda the boo jumping around everywhere) is indicating where the Zelda Team wants to go.

I would love dungeons and overworld and NOTHING ELSE. No stupid cat to rescue. No dumb rams to put in the barn. No stupid ‘uncle’. No stupid children to rescue. No cinematics at all. Within ten seconds of the game, I would get my sword and pick any direction I wanted toward the horizon and off I would go. This ‘original Zelda’ approach did, indeed, convert non-gamers to Zelda fans. If it worked in 1988, it can work in 2011.

But I know the Zelda developers are licking their chops to inflict us with more “Amazing Story!” and “OMG cut scenes!”. In a game, less is more. They would be devastated by the ‘back-to-basics’ picture I described above. Why, they wouldn’t have any way to show off their GENIUS.

Every Nintendo game is being infected with “OMG Story!” developers. They infected Mario Galaxy with “OMG Story!”. They tried to infect Mario 5 and Galaxy 2 but Miyamoto put a stop to them. Metroid: Other M is “OMG Story!” on steroids. “OMG Story!” is taking a huge place in all the Zeldas since Ocarina so why wouldn’t it be in Zelda: Wii?

I guess we won’t know anything for sure until the gameplay is unveiled in some form at E3 2010.

I agree 100% with him. In my opinion, Shadow of the Colossus is the best Zelda game since ALttP.

 

[zaneebaslave]

I agree with "some" of what he said. But I believe that the Zelda story is just as important as the gameplay. Instead of getting rid of the story completely, like Sean said, they should fix the cliches.

But thats just me...

I'm more casual than anyone on this forum anyways, so my opinion probably doesn't matter.

 

[Luigitoilet]

What the hell is Mario 5?

 

[LLDL]

Nintendo is bein mad secretive with this, JUST like Sonic Needlemouse. These games are the only reason I'm going to be a gamer besides Melee.

 

[Phantom7]

The only difference was the toon look, which isn't quite enough evidence they were reaching out to different audiences. And keep in mind, this game was released in 2003, years before Nintendo really began to pay attention to casual gamers, if there were many casual gamers at all before Wii and DS.

The game's art direction is decidedly casual. It's no secret that hardcore gamers as a whole would prefer a realistic Zelda, but Nintendo used the Toon look anyway. Also, Zelda being playable was used as a huge selling point. ST was one giant ploy to get casuals into Zelda. Hell, the first five hours was ploddingly slow tutorial with puzzles that a three year old could figure out. The game was designed at the offset to be a casual gateway into Zelda.

ST seems to be one of those games that is made to satisfy both core and casual gamers. You can tell simply by playing it that Nintendo's goal behind it was to bring more attention to Zelda, but the game also gives core gamers a lot more of what we wanted from Zelda than PH and TP did, mainly because it's challenging, and they did it right.

Overall, though, it has probably sold more to core gamers and people who already played Zelda. The casual gamers are probably too busy playing Ubisoft's new Wii Fit rip-off.

 

[etecoon]

The only difference was the toon look, which isn't quite enough evidence they were reaching out to different audiences. And keep in mind, this game was released in 2003, years before Nintendo really began to pay attention to casual gamers, if there were many casual gamers at all before Wii and DS.

the enemies all doing like a quarter of a heart damage too, some other things with dialogue, obviously the graphics being the main thing


and shadow of the colossus is amazing but I liked ICO more : )

 

[lanky_gunner]

That actually does seem like a good idea. I mean, I love Zelda lore than most other gamers out there (sometimes a good story makes a good game), and I know in Zelda/Mario it seems to be the same, but it still works for me.

But the general dislike of Wind Waker over the favorable Twilight Princess was the amount of dungeons for me. More dungeons are a plus in our minds.

I think maybe the next step would be like Prince of Persia. You are given four dungeons. You can choose which one to go to first. By your choice, it affects how the overworld plays out (say for example, by besting Temple A first, it's easier to approach Temple C but not Temple B, but if you best Temple B first, it's easier to approach Temple C, but not Temple D).

 

[LLDL]

You guys are wrong. Wind waker WAS for casuals. I played through the game, being non biased and actually liking the cartoon look. It was the easiest 3d zelda game. Difficulty doesn't lie lol.

 

[Luigitoilet]

I have to agree there. Wind Waker has some of the most uninspired and unstimulating dungeons in the whole series, IMO.

 

[Spire]

I have to agree there. Wind Waker has some of the most uninspired and unstimulating dungeons in the whole series, IMO.

I loved the Earth and Wind Temples actually. I felt that the Earth Temple was a nod to OoT's dungeon design and the Wind Temple a nod to MM's dungeon design, with Dragon Roost Cavern and Forbidden Woods almost entirely WW in their feel (perhaps also because they weren't temples). Those two certainly felt the most platformish of the four. While playing the game, I completely expected to have a Water and Fire temple to match the elemental Earth and Wind, but there weren't and while at the time (6th grade) I was disappointed, I'm really glad Nintendo didn't take that route.

Oh, and the Tower of the Gods (which I forgot about until right now) was amazing. Though it wasn't a traditional water temple, it stood in as WW's. It was not water themed in its name or overall look, but incorporated water elements nonetheless. I could have lived with there being two more dungeons, perhaps to meet the archetypal 7, but the Forsaken Fortress and Hyrule Castle kind of stood in place. Plus, Ganon's Tower in the end was a grand obstacle.

WW was a balanced game in my opinion. The overworld was a bit too large, but it helped to scope what they were going for - a tried and true ocean, and while we never really got to see what Hyrule looked like beneath the waves, you got the feeling that it was far larger than seen in OoT due to the Great Sea taking place on top of it.

 

[etecoon]

WW's dungeons were pretty disappointing to me but it's more part of a trend, most of TP didn't impress me that much either(although WW was much worse). I really like atmospheric area's that can pull me in like forest temple, I didn't really get that out of anything in WW at all(well if you count the first trip to hyrule as a dungeon maybe...)

while I did take issue with boat travel, I don't think it's that the great sea was too large, I just think the warp needed to be better and let you go to any sector, and perhaps make the boat a little faster

 

[sman5093]

I only know that this Zelda game is going to come out for wii. I'm looking forward to it

 

[Phantom7]

TP was definitely much easier than WW, for sure. It had better dungeons, though, but still, I think WW was made for the same audience.

 

[Omegapaste]

Wind waker had the best sidequests or freedom. It had tons of islands and hidden places to discover. I like the sea as world map more but only if it's as big as WW's since PH didnt have much places to visit. OOT, MM and TP had better dungeons however

 

[Phantom7]

True, but I thought the Great Sea was a little too big. Sailing from one island to the next became absolutely ridiculous, especially during the Triforce quest.

 

[Spire]

True, but I thought the Great Sea was a little too big. Sailing from one island to the next became absolutely ridiculous, especially during the Triforce quest.

Back when it came out in 6th grade for me, I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I'd never done anything like it. Plus, it was Zelda was in almost every way different from every game preceding it. I had no complaints while playing it.

You know, when it comes to complaining about Zelda, it seems that most seem to do so in hindsight rather than while playing the game. It's interesting.

 

[Firus]

I loved the dungeons in Wind Waker, especially the Earth Temple -- ironically, since I hated it to death the first time I played the game. I have a love-hate relationship with that dungeon, and those kinds of things in video games are always the best. They're the ones that are difficult and creepy as all hell, but due to those factors, they're amazing.

The atmosphere of that dungeon was perfect, in my opinion.

 

[Spire]

I loved the dungeons in Wind Waker, especially the Earth Temple -- ironically, since I hated it to death the first time I played the game. I have a love-hate relationship with that dungeon, and those kinds of things in video games are always the best. They're the ones that are difficult and creepy as all hell, but due to those factors, they're amazing.

The atmosphere of that dungeon was perfect, in my opinion.

I have a strong love-hate for Majora's Mask. I love what it strove to be and I love many of the small things within it, but I hate the game just as much. No matter how much I play it, I just cannot seem to enjoy the game as much as I want to sans the dungeons.

 

[Phantom7]

I have a strong love-hate for Majora's Mask. I love what it strove to be and I love many of the small things within it, but I hate the game just as much. No matter how much I play it, I just cannot seem to enjoy the game as much as I want to sans the dungeons.

As huge of a Zelda fan as I am, believe it or not, I've never beaten MM. I have made it through the Woodfall Temple on the original N64 game, and then I somewhat gave up because the control stick is old and has some issues. Now, I don't want to replay that much of the game on the PC emulator, so that's as far as I've gotten. The other day, I decided I'd try and play more on the N64, but since I could hardly move Link straight forward, I couldn't defeat the Dodongo next to the Snowhead entrance in Termina Field. It was rather sad.

 

[LLDL]

Major'as mask was the most challenging and it was a little deeper than ocarina. Once you beat it you will be more fulfilled than with ocarina, but you won't want to play through it again for a while.

 

[Spire]

I've never beat MM either. I've tried time and again since the day it came out in 2000 and have not been able to best it. For years, Snowhead Temple defeated me. Now I'm just trekking through it, but can't find the urge to press forward. The game defeats the personal paced exploration that I seek in Zelda games. I suppose that is really why I play the games - to explore these great worlds, and MM kills that for me. This is where my despise for the game comes from.

It's kind of like someone stole my dog and trained it in their own ways then gave it back to me to deal with.

 

[Luigitoilet]

How do you mean? The time limit doesn't impose any real barriers on exploration.

Or do you mean the way all four areas are "locked" until you beat the dungeons before it? I agree with that, actually. Doesn't really bother me that much however.

Also, Termina rewards personal exploration way more than Hyrule in OoT, and ESPECIALLY TP. There are the Spider Houses, the huge number of variables with the Time feature. One of my favorite parts was coming to Ikana Canyon and having no clue what to do. The place is so foreign and creepy, and I loved just trying every random entryway even if most of them lead to danger or a dead end at first.

edit: Also if anyone has a Wii, the Virtual Console version of Majora's Mask is by far the best one.

 

[Spire]

How do you mean? The time limit doesn't impose any real barriers on exploration.

Or do you mean the way all four areas are "locked" until you beat the dungeons before it? I agree with that, actually. Doesn't really bother me that much however.

Also, Termina rewards personal exploration way more than Hyrule in OoT, and ESPECIALLY TP. There are the Spider Houses, the huge number of variables with the Time feature. One of my favorite parts was coming to Ikana Canyon and having no clue what to do. The place is so foreign and creepy, and I loved just trying every random entryway even if most of them lead to danger or a dead end at first.

edit: Also if anyone has a Wii, the Virtual Console version of Majora's Mask is by far the best one.

Oh, I know Termina's world is so much closer to ALttP's in terms of exploration than OoT's is (including its overworld theme), but really, it's the time that kills me. I hate time trials in general, so fixating an entire Zelda adventure around that concept breaks the game for me. I know you and many others really like it, but it just does not connect with me. I loved Termina for the most part too when it comes to the aesthetics and expanses of exploration, especially Ikana and the Great Bay. The latter was so big and had so much, I loved it. Including Great Bay Temple and Pirate's Fortress, I think that was the single best part of the entire game. And the depth of the Beaver Race (compared to Zora's wimpy river in OoT) was absolutely superb; beautifully crafted.

So really, it boils down to the time that kills it for me. If the Zelda Wii rumors are true and it'll be a sequel to MM, which means Termina will most likely be explorable at your own pace, which means it'll be the best Zelda ever.

And yes, the Wii VC version of MM is the best. In hi-res, it's amazing. Zero lag too compared to the GCN Collector's Disc version (blegh, awful).

 

[Luigitoilet]

I can understand disliking the time gimmick, I suppose. It is what makes the game so unique and it was bound to polarize people a bit.

also, the GCN Collector's version tends to freeze up, a LOT

 

[Spire]

I can understand disliking the time gimmick, I suppose. It is what makes the game so unique and it was bound to polarize people a bit.

also, the GCN Collector's version tends to freeze up, a LOT

Especially in Clock Town. You can't run through it without lag or the chance of freezing.

But yeah, MM has polarized Zelda fans and I'm of the sort that - no matter what - can't seem to find enough reasons to love it more than hate it. It really is the time mechanic that kills the game for me.

 

[SkylerOcon]

My N64 copy of Majora's Mask is still in perfect working shape, which makes me happy. I'd buy it on the VC just so I could play it with a decent control stick, but I'm cheap, so I'll stick with the crappy N64 controller.

The snowhead temple is pretty tough. Use that song that slows down time, if you haven't been. I don't remember what it is exactly off the top of my head, but a quick google search should do the trick. I think the time trick is really cool and it's part of what made the game for me, but I tend to bust through games on my first play through, then stick around to explore the second time. You seem to do the exact opposite, Spire, which is probably why MM turns you off so much. It really is a great game though, so hopefully you'll manage to get through it one day.

 

[Spire]

Collecting all that **** to get the Mirror Shield in the well is just tedious as hell. Big turn-off.

 

[Alzi]

Majoras mask was great for me. I played it for the first time on VC and enjoyed it but it wasn't so much amazing maybe because i didn't play it back in the day when it was released. I saw my cousin playing it and it looked so dam cool.

But yes New zelda wii since the day i heard it had motion plus in the game thats all that i needed to know to understand if the game is going to be awesome or not.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Collecting all that **** to get the Mirror Shield in the well is just tedious as hell. Big turn-off.

That's the worst part of the game IMO.

And the song to slow time down is just the Song of Time backwards. Just do it at the beginning of every day cycle and you really shouldn't have any trouble, unless you get really stumped in a dungeon.

Oh, and another thing is to know when to go back. As soon as a dungeon entrance is made available, save at an Owl Statue then go back. Play the backwards Song of Time, warp to the dungeon, and now you have two irl hours to beat it.

edit: I always wondered if it would be better if you could warp to more times in the day, rather than just day/night. maybe that would make it too easy.

 

[Tacel]

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/20/rumor-zelda-wii-to-be-majoras-mask-sequel/

Even though it's a rumor, it's probably the best news I'll hear all year.

 

[Scott!]

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/20/rumor-zelda-wii-to-be-majoras-mask-sequel/

Even though it's a rumor, it's probably the best news I'll hear all year.

I gotta say, I think the rumor there that excited me the most was being able to have Link left handed. I trust the developers to give us a great game with an awesome story, so while those rumors are exciting, it's the things like choosing which hand he uses that I was less sure they'd have, and so am more excited to hear about. Possibly.

 

[Spire]

I gotta say, I think the rumor there that excited me the most was being able to have Link left handed. I trust the developers to give us a great game with an awesome story, so while those rumors are exciting, it's the things like choosing which hand he uses that I was less sure they'd have, and so am more excited to hear about. Possibly.

That actually stood out the most to me too. Selecting Link's primary hand is exactly the type of personalization they need. That lone is linking us to the character so much more than anything before (including name).

 

[comboking]

Anyone else here want Wii Sports Resort Arrow aiming and flying? Maybe even having to move your arms to swim? Maybe even minigames where things fly at you really fast and you have to slice them in half?

 

[LLDL]

Seriously can't wait until they expand on this game.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Anyone else here want Wii Sports Resort Arrow aiming and flying? Maybe even having to move your arms to swim? Maybe even minigames where things fly at you really fast and you have to slice them in half?

arrow aiming in Wii Sports Resort was supposed to be the frame for the arrow shooting that'll be in Zelda Wii. So is the swordplay.