The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[AlphaZealot]

anddddddddddddd lets get back on topic.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

*puts on monocle*I for one think this ledgegrab rule is a splendid idea. Bring in the tea and crumpets!

No, but srsly, i like this rule. I have never been planked, but i have seen people be planked, and its gaay..

 

[OverLade]

*puts on monocle*I for one think this ledgegrab rule is a splendid idea. Bring in the tea and crumpets!

No, but srsly, i like this rule. I have never been planked, but i have seen people be planked, and its gaay..

I'd prefer a scone good sir!

But A TOAST to 70 ledgegrabs in deed!

 

[MajinSweet]

MajinSweet, for like 2/3rds of the cast of characters, the only way to get past planking is to deliberately put yourself in a bad position that can easily lead to your death. A few select characters can get by it with ease. The rest of the cast can get past it without dying, but it's pretty difficult.


For the majority of characters that planking wrecks, the only possible way to get around it is not letting your opponent get any percent lead. Oh wait. That's near impossible. Unless you're M2K facing some random casual player who only plays once a week, your opponent will most likely get a % lead somewhere in the match. And when they do, you're screwed.

Don't play those characters.

And not only does it make people lose in the stupidest way possible, but it also (obviously) runs out the clock. Doing this runs out the time of the tournament, making matches take longer than they should. People have to stay awake much longer than they'd need to if a match takes half as long as it should. And quite possibly, the tournament either lasts until 3 in the morning or they get kicked out of the venue. This is an extreme example, but it can happen.

I've seen many matches run the timer with neither player planking. That is a Brawl problem, not a ledge camping issure.

It doesn't take months of playing to know that planking means that there are frames of invincibility and frames where getting close would mean being attacked/dying.

Game theory usually never works in a situation like this.

Planking is inane. Period. And what sucks is that even though this is listed as stalling, you can't really enforce it. There aren't enough judges to watch every TV at all times. And when a judge does come over, the person can just hop back on the ledge and say, "I wasn't planking, what are you talking about?" Or they could just say they were waiting for a moment to attack, but lol.

All a matter of opinion. Some people have fun planking, what do they care if it annoys you? It wins matches.

There's a difference between planking and waiting. Planking is trying to run out the clock when you have a lead and the clock still has a long way to go. Waiting to attack is precisely that, and usually doesn't last more than 10 seconds.

Ideally, people should just not plank period. Just like people don't do MK's infinite dimensional cape glitch, they shouldn't plank. But people don't. And that sucks. So the next best thing is to impliment a rather iffy ledge grab rule: too high of a number like 70 means they can still plank, and too low of a number like 30 means that someone like me who grabs the ledge often, or a tether character, could possibly be counted as planking.

Not at all. The IDC breaks game play because if done correctly, the match is over. It literally has no counter what so ever. Ledge camping is nothing like that and people would rather cry than man up to play the game.

tl;dr: People should have the integrity not to plank.

tl;dr: People should have the balls to play to win.

 

[bobson]

Don't play those characters.

Tsk, tsk.
And you had almost convinced me that you should be taken seriously, too.

 

[Eaode]

Tsk, tsk.
And you had almost convinced me that you should be taken seriously, too.

Melee Sheik shut down like half the cast with Chain grabs. You can just play other characters, or you can ban sheik's CG. lol.

 

[Crizthakidd]

theres not a single situation where u need to grab the ledge 80 times a match. BUT planking wil not run that either . people always plank 3 mins less. and not many do it anyway... around 75-80 should be the number.



as TO's just use the ruels dont do stupid/lame stuff lol thats what inui does and just help ur attendance knows whats the limits

 

[MajinSweet]

Tsk, tsk.
And you had almost convinced me that you should be taken seriously, too.

Tst, tsk, you are indeed a scrub. If a character who is bad gets ***** by planking loses more, who cares? It's still a bad character, in tournament play your supposed to play to win. Should we makes a rule like "You are not allowed to gimp Link because he is so bad at recovering it's unfair." Then again, with how things are going I wouldn't even be surprised to see some one suggest that.

 

[OverLade]

Tst, tsk, you are indeed a scrub. If a character who is bad gets ***** by planking loses more, who cares? It's still a bad character, in tournament play your supposed to play to win. Should we makes a rule like "You are not allowed to gimp Link because he is so bad at recovering it's unfair." Then again, with how things are going I wouldn't even be surprised to see some one suggest that.

But the reality, if EVERYONE started planking, winning would = play Metaknight, almost literally.

Against GOOD ledgecamping, 90% of the cast would be unviable because winning consistently would be impossible. Even snake can't fight ledgecamping THAT well. A percent lead would be ABSOLUTELY necessary in order for anyone to win a match, and that person would just ledgecamp, and the metagame would become absolutely gay.

Thinking like "well deal with it" is a horrible approach because it's a **** videogame. People want to have fun, pros, scrubs, and competitive players a like. You have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Plairnkk]

But the reality, if EVERYONE started planking, winning would = play Metaknight, almost literally.

Against GOOD ledgecamping, 90% of the cast would be unviable because winning consistently would be impossible. Even snake can't fight ledgecamping THAT well. A percent lead would be ABSOLUTELY necessary in order for anyone to win a match, and that person would just ledgecamp, and the metagame would become absolutely gay.
.

just pointing out how much speculation is in that post. there is no viable evidence to base it off of, you justed post what you think would happen. id be for the ban if it became an actual problem

 

[OverLade]

just pointing out how much speculation is in that post. there is no viable evidence to base it off of, you justed post what you think would happen. id be for the ban if it became an actual problem

Well the reality in most regions it IS banned, and if it wasn't we all know people that would abuse it (either to get it banned, or to win).

My theory was just based on what would happen mathemtically. People are still gonna use their favorite characters etc, but I think the whole "every good person picks up MK" thing is happening more and more every day. More to beat gayness than to use the best character.

 

[rehab]

If Dedede's infinite should not be banned, and Metaknight should not be banned, and they shouldn't, it doesn't follow that this should be banned. "Use a better character if you can't take it with your current guy" is a valid statement, because even if a character is otherwise good, if they lose hard enough to hardcore edge camping to actually get inevitably ***** by this strategy, which is obviously a solid one in many situations, then that character is not good. There's nothing wrong with picking a higher main on the tier list to deal with this if the ledge camped feel the need to. Don't get grabbed, don't jump into the ****, don't act the fool on the ledge.

I see the point behind "after a point people won't be willing to take this and quit," but even if it's really that bad, it's still not the fault of the people playing the game that something that people don't like is a good strategy, even if it's hated pretty much universally.

 

[Niko_K]

There is no ledge camping rule in Canada RedHalberd. Whos to say you arent allowed to ledge camp the last two stocks, after fighting your way to an advantage? The entire object of the game is to win. Therefore if you can hold an advantage, you win. It's the others players fault for being at the disadvantage in the first place.

Also, no player has ever re created the success in ledge camping that Plank has. It has never happened in tournaments anywhere. It just hasn't happened. Plank went to WC's largest tournament and placed third solely on ledge camping. No one else has done it on a scale nearly as close..

 

[Plairnkk]

There is no ledge camping rule in Canada RedHalberd. Whos to say you arent allowed to ledge camp the last two stocks, after fighting your way to an advantage? The entire object of the game is to win. Therefore if you can hold an advantage, you win. It's the others players fault for being at the disadvantage in the first place.

Also, no player has ever re created the success in ledge camping that Plank has. It has never happened in tournaments anywhere. It just hasn't happened. Plank went to WC's largest tournament and placed third solely on ledge camping. No one else has done it on a scale nearly as close..

wtf, sk92 is the only set i ledgecamped in 310 man tourney, how is that solely on ledge camping???

 

[bobson]

Tst, tsk, you are indeed a scrub. If a character who is bad gets ***** by planking loses more, who cares? It's still a bad character, in tournament play your supposed to play to win. Should we makes a rule like "You are not allowed to gimp Link because he is so bad at recovering it's unfair." Then again, with how things are going I wouldn't even be surprised to see some one suggest that.

Then unban Bridge of Eldin, Mario Circuit, Shadow Moses, Mushroomy Kingdom, etc. because clearly rendering 2/3rds of the cast unviable is perfectly fine.

I don't think planking is powerful enough to shut down that many characters, but your argument against that should not be "HURR THEN THOSE CHARACTERS SUCK."

 

[-ACE-]

I would be more enthusiastic about this rule if the accuser risks auto-forfeit if the accusation is false. What am I saying, it's too late in Melee's life to make rules like this imo anyway. Not to trample on anyone's ideas, just my 2 cents.

 

[Niko_K]

wtf, sk92 is the only set i ledgecamped in 310 man tourney, how is that solely on ledge camping???

I didnt think you'd be so quick to catch my troll. It was a mockery of all the other arguments in this thread, which all hold no validity what so ever.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I would be more enthusiastic about this rule if the accuser risks auto-forfeit if the accusation is false. What am I saying, it's too late in Melee's life to make rules like this imo anyway. Not to trample on anyone's ideas, just my 2 cents.

Uh....brawl?

 

[PhatyCHONG]

Odd rule, sounds pretty excessive if you ask me. I honestly wouldn't see any character in a 7 minute duration match to grab a ledge < 70 times, but their are always someone out there in our community.

Stalling should be banned
but, Excessive Ledge grabbing is a pretty useful techniques with certain character for counters.

I know I've used certain strategy that involve excessive ledge grabbing in order to avoid certain spams (Pit's Arrows, Falco's Laser, Bananas :D, D3's homies,) and also to give campers a defensive taunt for to spice up an offensive approach.

In a tourney match, which will USUALLY involves a 7 minute time duration grabbing a ledge ever 7 seconds sounds pretty exaggerated to me. Techniques FTW

 

[JonaDiaper]

wtf, sk92 is the only set i ledgecamped in 310 man tourney, how is that solely on ledge camping???

i would have done the same thing, hes too good.

 

[Oracle]

I would be more enthusiastic about this rule if the accuser risks auto-forfeit if the accusation is false. What am I saying, it's too late in Melee's life to make rules like this imo anyway. Not to trample on anyone's ideas, just my 2 cents.

No. The reason we don't make rules like that for melee is that nothing is that blatantly broken and not obviously stalling (ie sheik gannon roy infinite ledgestall. And even that is counterable with a well timed wavedash i think)

 

[-ACE-]

LOL my first post in any brawl thread was by accident. I love it. You can rest assured it won't happen again. Carry on bros.

peace

 

[MajinSweet]

Then unban Bridge of Eldin, Mario Circuit, Shadow Moses, Mushroomy Kingdom, etc. because clearly rendering 2/3rds of the cast unviable is perfectly fine.

I don't think planking is powerful enough to shut down that many characters, but your argument against that should not be "HURR THEN THOSE CHARACTERS SUCK."

Banning a stage is nothing like banning a tactic. Not to mention those would only be counter pick at best, so you could still use characters in tournaments that do bad on those stages.

 

[bobson]

Banning a stage is nothing like banning a tactic.

Why?
Why is it fine and dandy to ban a stage that invalidates over half the cast, but you're suddenly a scrub if you ban a technique that does the same?

Not to mention those would only be counter pick at best, so you could still use characters in tournaments that do bad on those stages.

Good point. While those stages would only show up in counterpicks, your opponent can plank no matter what match in the set it is (because, ironically enough, we've banned all the stages where it doesn't work), making it worse than something we've already banned!

 

[1048576]

Overcentralization is a valid ban criteria. Whether or not planking overcentralizes the meta around characters who can effectively plank and get around planking is the debate here.

I support this rule because it sets the bar so high that type two error (getting dq'ed and not planking) is not going to happen 99.99% of the time. This makes type one error (planking and not getting dqed) fairly high, but that's usually a good place to start. It's certainly better than all other anti-plank rules for enforcability and objectivity.

 

[OverLade]

There is no ledge camping rule in Canada RedHalberd. Whos to say you arent allowed to ledge camp the last two stocks, after fighting your way to an advantage? The entire object of the game is to win. Therefore if you can hold an advantage, you win. It's the others players fault for being at the disadvantage in the first place.

Also, no player has ever re created the success in ledge camping that Plank has. It has never happened in tournaments anywhere. It just hasn't happened. Plank went to WC's largest tournament and placed third solely on ledge camping. No one else has done it on a scale nearly as close..

Well that sucks doesn't it?

Really, its not even a game anymore when one player is simply going to shoot a projectile then go straight for the ledge, and the other players job is then to damage them while they're on the ledge, till THEY get a stock lead, and the other player then has to do the same thing?

That's not fun. That's not BRAWL.

In this case I'd just remove the timer rather than make up any "gay rules" because if people play like that, it's making "the timer itself" a gay rule that people can abuse.

The game isn't perfect. Some things are too good. They ban stuff in other games. They banned stuff in Melee. Unfortunatley this game was just made that badly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Something that should be kept in mind:

The ledge-grab-70-times rule applies in Japan, where ten-minute matches are the standard. Do the math for an eight minute time limit, and that translates to 56 ledge grabs per match. That's a good number, I think.

Also--as long as the match doesn't go to time, then the rule doesn't come into play. I don't see how this isn't perfectly fine.

 

[JonaDiaper]

if your gonna do anything do ^^^^^^^^^^^ that

what reflexwonder said is the best.

 

[1048576]

You can't remove the timer. All competitions need a time limit so they can be completed.

 

[andrewg]

When doing a ledge stall like that, the player isn't infinitely invincible right? I would think there's at least 1 frame where they could be attacked right?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When doing a ledge stall like that, the player isn't infinitely invincible right? I would think there's at least 1 frame where they could be attacked right?

That is correct.

 

[bobson]

Overcentralization is a valid ban criteria. Whether or not planking overcentralizes the meta around characters who can effectively plank and get around planking is the debate here.

Yes, thank you!
Your point should be that planking does not make 2/3rds of the cast unviable, not that making 2/3rds of the cast unviable is perfectly fine.

 

[heytallman]

Something that should be kept in mind:

The ledge-grab-70-times rule applies in Japan, where ten-minute matches are the standard. Do the math for an eight minute time limit, and that translates to 56 ledge grabs per match. That's a good number, I think.

Also--as long as the match doesn't go to time, then the rule doesn't come into play. I don't see how this isn't perfectly fine.

This discussion came up in my regional thread, and I did the math and figured out 56 and posted it there. I came in here hoping that nobody else did the simple math to figure it out. I find that you just barely posted it embarrass:embarrass

Thanks for posting it, though.

And on topic: In tournament I have not been gayed out by someone who is relentlessly planking, so I can't say whether I agree or disagree. But it sounds like a good idea and I would definitely like to see it implemented in tournament play, even if its just being tested out primarily.

 

[Traviz]

the rule sounds legit to me. i dont think planking should be tolerated.
prolonging a game by planking is a desperate attempt to win

just play the game, and if you play well then no one will complain

 

[TheReflexWonder]

On another note, here's the original Planker. The man who taught me my ways and gave me the idea to do it (I had never Planked before this match)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-qxyXyRXw

This is the greatest ever. At a bi-weekly, too.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Nothing is broken if it's "for some characters in some situations"

On another note, here's the original Planker. The man who taught me my ways and gave me the idea to do it (I had never Planked before this match)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-qxyXyRXw

Liar! You planked in Melee

 

[Metatitan]

really a stupid rule; it totally ruins AT's held my characters like samus or yoshi

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Meta, if you aren't going to raed some of the thread, don't bother posting. There is NO WAY even with all those techs and grapple tricks that you are going to reach 70 ledgrabs. Please, play a game like you normally would play a tournament, and record how many ledgegrabs you do.

 

[pockyD]

i'm curious, what's your "AT" exactly? grabbing the edge?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

i'm curious, what's your "AT" exactly? grabbing the edge?

Ledgehopped projectiles.

And, trust me; while it is annoying, ledgehopped eggs and ledgehopped missiles aren't too much trouble to get around...and you should really be doing 50+ to begin with, unless you're stalling.