The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[xXRoYXx]

well, no. this thread, like alphazealot's reiterated numerous times, is to offer an objective alternative to the "no planking" rule, as it's much more easy to enforce. this thread isn't about the brokenness or validity of planking as a tactic, so you might as well get off that train of thought now.

understood, anyway i still agree that Organizers would probably want to consider (or at least test) this theory, or..get a crap load of Judges to watch all fights to make sure its legal or w/e

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Ok...for the planking thing, its REALLY easy. cancel the match, save it, then call a TO. have them watch the replay. If they are stalling, they lose the match. If it isn't stalling, the person who accused the other person of stalling loses the match.

 

[OverLade]

Ok...for the planking thing, its REALLY easy. cancel the match, save it, then call a TO. have them watch the replay. If they are stalling, they lose the match. If it isn't stalling, the person who accused the other person of stalling loses the match.

What if it's longer than 3 minutes? Otherwise brilliant idea, though it'd need to be more specific.

 

[pockyD]

you're still asking/forcing the TO to make a completely subjective judgment call, with potentially hundreds/thousands of dollars riding on that one decision

 

[JonaDiaper]

9 judge or TO vote w/e

well atleast an odd number like 5 or something

 

[pockyD]

...so how would that be a "simpler" system at all?

 

[|RK|]

I think that the only rule against planking should be more specific. The ledge is used to recover, so this is still not a good rule. Why are we whining about such a mediocre tactic? If it works, then use it. Think about it. Why must we keep banning things that are hard for us to get around? Impossible, like IDC, I understand, but something as simple as planking? Seriously? If I wanted to stall, I could easily Wall-Cling. It lasts for 3 seconds, and I could easily cut the amount of time I'd have to re-grab the ledge. How are they going to legitimately win by planking? They certainly aren't going to kill you, just raise your percent till time's up. The actual rule should be that each person should make attempts to kill the opponent. That's *almost* impossible to get around. Think about it, isn't there a smashes used counter at the end as well? Or just apply this 70 ledgegrabs rule after someone has been killed twice. If you've been killed twice, I doubt planking will do much for you. The opponent just has to do the same on the other side of the stage. You know what? Disregard my entire post. I realize it's literally a stream of conscience. Start paying attention after this sentence.


We shouldn't ban or restrict what's hard to get around. Then we go around telling people there are no cheap tactics when we gimp their recovery or something. If planking is cheap, then so is gimping. Extend the time limit for tournaments then, to 8-9 minutes. Find a better way to discourage planking rather than the lesser of two evils. Find something in the results screen that can be useful to stop this. Fall distance, something. But stalling wouldn't exist if we found some way to stop the bombs in Sudden Death. So long as we stay on the same side of the stage, what can happen, really? To hit us, they have to come up. Hit them then. But don't whine about it and call it cheap. Get some hacker to remove bombs in Sudden Death and stalling is eliminated completely. They wouldn't plank because no attack is fast enough to kill you because of the telegraphed jump, whether you're on the same side to hit them, and easily sidestep or guard an attack. If they stall out the clock, kill 'em in SD.

*sigh* No, better yet, just put on handicap to 300% for a second if they end w/ the same amount of stocks instead of using Sudden Death. That works.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Um....what did any of that mean? The point of planking is to time a match out with a % lead, and that would make you win. IDK what place you are talking about, but if they have a % lead, they are winning and you are put in a horrible position. Characters that are good at planking can get a % lead and stall the rest of the match. Planking puts characters who have to go after the planker in a horrible position, and it is near impossible to hit them. Almost all of the time the planker will end up hitting you, and go to the other side and plank more... Wall clinging isn't as effective because you can be hit out of it much easier than planking.

Find something in the results screen that can be useful to stop this.

Ledgegrabs is in the results screen.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You probably didn't read a single post in this thread before posting.

We shouldn't ban or restrict what's hard to get around. Then we go around telling people there are no cheap tactics when we gimp their recovery or something. If planking is cheap, then so is gimping.

Gimping takes a lot more skill and timing than planking does. Gimping is also fairly easy to get around unless you are a tether recoverer, but even THEY have ways around it. Please, read posts and actually think before you post next time.

I think that the only rule against planking should be more specific. The ledge is used to recover, so this is still not a good rule. Why are we whining about such a mediocre tactic? If it works, then use it.

It sounds like you haven't been planked. The ledgegrabs is an exact rule, you can't get more specific. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have to recover 70 times in a 3 stock match. Not even people who wait and ledgecamp so they have an oppening to get back on the level can get 70 ledgegrabs unless they are doing it to stall.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, well, I know it didn't make any sense. The only part you should read is the last paragraph. Everything else is a stream of conscience. I kept changing as I went along. The point is, why are we banning so much things? I know it's almost impossible to have to recover 70 times in one match. I just think everyone's being whiny about a tactic that everyone can use and can be stopped. To your second post, once again, I was thinking as I posted. I came in with an idea but kept proving myself wrong, lol. And FYI, I read over half of this topic before posting. By find something in the results screen, I mean find something ELSE in the results screen that can help stop planking. I know ledgegrabs is in the results screen. Read the last paragraph of my previous post. They aren't going to kill you by planking. Therefore, a makeshift sudden death can be used to decide the winner. Besides, it's almost impossible to not get hit the entire match. Get them once while they're going to the other side and follow up. Dodge, shield, etc.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It doesn't matter, they don't HAVE to kill you, they can win by %s. If they are winning by % and the time clocks out, they win. You cannot under any circumstances play the sudden death unless the stock, %, and damage given/taken is the same.

 

[|RK|]

That's why I said use handicaps to make a makeshift sudden death if they are equal in stock. But whatever.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

What would handicaps do exactly?

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

ledge grab rule- "You are not allowed to grab the ledge more than 70 times in any individual tourney match. If you do, you automatically forfeit that match."
Alpha Zealot said he believes the Japanese already use this rule.

We started talking about this in the CoT4 results thread, and I feel it needs its own discussion. I REALLY like this idea, and I'm probably going to use it at my next Pittsburgh tourney. There are a lot of complaints of people stalling and planking, and although many TO's now prohibit ledge stalling, it is very hard to enforce. CoT4 showed this with several incidents, Norfair in particular being a troublesome stage to enforce it. This rule is very easy to enforce. In the victory/defeat screen after the match, you can check the stats to see how many times each player grabbed the ledge. If someone accuses the other of excessively planking/ledge stalling, you simply need to check the end stats. I know I'm not alone in thinking this was a good idea, what are other player's thoughts about this?

Or hack wii's and save replays and a judge will make a decision on whether or not they were planking. Simple solution. May as well hack it to get rid of the random tripping bs too

 

[AvaricePanda]

That's why I said use handicaps to make a makeshift sudden death if they are equal in stock. But whatever.

Then anyone with a good long range attack, like Lucario, just wins the Sudden Death.

...I still don't think you understand what planking is. Planking can't be done effectively by everyone. The main character you think of when you hear "plank" is MK, and I bet there are a few others, but basically everyone else's "planking" can be easily stopped.

The rules say that the only time an extra match happens to settle the original is when two characters have the exact same amount of lives and the exact same %. Planking only happens when someone gets a percent lead. Nobody is going to plank when they're both at the same percent, so no planker is going to force a sudden death. If someone planks when they're up percent, they win the match. AKA, the only way to stop planking for like 2/3rds of the cast (other than being one frame perfect) is to not let your opponent get the % lead, which is ridiculously hard.

This isn't really banning a tactic that's tough to beat. Stalling's already illegal, and it always has been for many years. Jiggly's Rising pound stall, Peach's bomber stall, etc., are all illegal in tournaments. Planking is a form of stalling. Using the 70 ledgegrab rule (although people can still plank with 70 ledgegrabs, so 56 would probably better work) is a way to eliminate a form of stalling and maintain a rule that already existed in the first place.

 

[TP]

Or hack wii's and save replays and a judge will make a decision on whether or not they were planking. Simple solution. May as well hack it to get rid of the random tripping bs too

The tournaments run too long already. This would only make things worse.

 

[DemonFart]

this sounds ok.
odd though but ok.

 

[|RK|]

Then anyone with a good long range attack, like Lucario, just wins the Sudden Death.

...I still don't think you understand what planking is. Planking can't be done effectively by everyone. The main character you think of when you hear "plank" is MK, and I bet there are a few others, but basically everyone else's "planking" can be easily stopped.

The rules say that the only time an extra match happens to settle the original is when two characters have the exact same amount of lives and the exact same %. Planking only happens when someone gets a percent lead. Nobody is going to plank when they're both at the same percent, so no planker is going to force a sudden death. If someone planks when they're up percent, they win the match. AKA, the only way to stop planking for like 2/3rds of the cast (other than being one frame perfect) is to not let your opponent get the % lead, which is ridiculously hard.

This isn't really banning a tactic that's tough to beat. Stalling's already illegal, and it always has been for many years. Jiggly's Rising pound stall, Peach's bomber stall, etc., are all illegal in tournaments. Planking is a form of stalling. Using the 70 ledgegrab rule (although people can still plank with 70 ledgegrabs, so 56 would probably better work) is a way to eliminate a form of stalling and maintain a rule that already existed in the first place.

I know what the rules are >_> I mean change it to prevent planking or just use something else in the results screen, like fall distance. If the combined fall distance is way over that of the bottom blast line, then they were planking. Or just allow planking in short bursts, like ThunderJolt planking to get back on stage safely. Or something. But I still don't like so much limitations on Brawl. It seems so much people don't like playing the game, they have to ban everything. Once again, if we merely allowed for a makeshift Sudden Death if they're on the same stock (change handicap percentage at your leisure, maybe to 100% -150%, or just something equal. Don't allow B moves in it or something...), have a makeshift, Custom Sudden Death. As a matter of fact, have a separate Wii for Sudden Death's to speed up the process so people don't have to wait long.

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

The tournaments run too long already. This would only make things worse.

Accurate*

I swear smash players go out of their way to be lazy. The goal is to make the game more COMPETITIVE, not get you home sooner. Wow

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I know what the rules are >_> I mean change it to prevent planking or just use something else in the results screen, like fall distance. If the combined fall distance is way over that of the bottom blast line, then they were planking. Or just allow planking in short bursts, like ThunderJolt planking to get back on stage safely. Or something. But I still don't like so much limitations on Brawl. It seems so much people don't like playing the game, they have to ban everything. Once again, if we merely allowed for a makeshift Sudden Death if they're on the same stock (change handicap percentage at your leisure, maybe to 100% -150%, or just something equal. Don't allow B moves in it or something...), have a makeshift, Custom Sudden Death. As a matter of fact, have a separate Wii for Sudden Death's to speed up the process so people don't have to wait long.

Uh...the restrictions in sudden death "limits" the game more than the ledgegrab rule. We DO allow ledgecamping in small bursts. Have you ever actually looked at the results screen after you play a match? Even with characters that need several seconds or ledgegrabs to get on safe, you will NEVER come close to 70 unless you were doing it to stall. Also, how would fall speed do anything. People will then use their vertical attacks more than the horizontal ones. Also, the person could have multiple jumps and be edgeguarding, and then he has to fall when his jumps run out. Your theory has way too many holes to even be considered. Doing the sudden death is pointless, the person with the % deserves to win if they weren't planking. However, if they were, we would know based on the amount of ledgegrabs...

 

[Tommy_G]

70 ledge grabs in one match out of 7 minutes(420 seconds) means they would have to grab the ledge at least once for every 6 seconds of a whole match.

If you get gimped, that means you got predicted. Don't get predicted.

Imagine ledge camping like this. The opponent gets a star whenever they're not attacking that refreshes after every attack. Also for a lot of characters, imagine one to three hits is a one hit KO. This is ledge camping.

 

[|RK|]

Uh...the restrictions in sudden death "limits" the game more than the ledgegrab rule. We DO allow ledgecamping in small bursts. Have you ever actually looked at the results screen after you play a match? Even with characters that need several seconds or ledgegrabs to get on safe, you will NEVER come close to 70 unless you were doing it to stall. Also, how would fall speed do anything. People will then use their vertical attacks more than the horizontal ones. Also, the person could have multiple jumps and be edgeguarding, and then he has to fall when his jumps run out. Your theory has way too many holes to even be considered. Doing the sudden death is pointless, the person with the % deserves to win if they weren't planking. However, if they were, we would know based on the amount of ledgegrabs...

Ok, you gave me a better idea. If they have over 70 ledgegrabs, then do a sudden death. You know what, never mind. I'm open to better ideas, just something better than 70 ledgegrabs. ESAM, I concede. But what I meant was fall distance, not speed. If they fell in excess of... never mind, I realize that wouldn't work because that would limit jumping.... once again, you are correct... I'd still like a better idea, though...

 

[1048576]

Who can plank unstoppably well besides MK?

 

[BrawLBlazer]

In my opinion, if this rule wants any REAL use, they should shorten the amount of ledge grabs? I mean, 70? C'mon.

 

[Tommy_G]

Who can plank unstoppably well besides MK?

Marth and GaW unless you have more than 1 double jumps

 

[|RK|]

Oh, wait. Stock matches without time limits.

 

[xXRoYXx]

I'd recommend the 70 ledge grabs. If it were reduced, multiple tactics will raise in terms of getting their opponent to grab the ledge. (which might generate even more banning or w/e) but like most people say "it is impossible to ledgegrab 70 times in a 3 stock match" then let it be 70, if it exceeds, then we will know that its working. It is a real good rule, it can AT LEAST limit or Kill planking/Stalling entirely. It's also the most reasonable alternative then anything else i read on this thread so far

 

[BBoyindo]

Oh, wait. Stock matches without time limits.

No, that will make the point of approaching with a higher % useless, and tournaments would take too long.

 

[|RK|]

The only drawbacks are the two you mentioned. It would make stalling and planking useless too, though. Double edged sword, but I'm not necessarily sure the tournaments would take longer. Without stalling or planking, even shorter still.

 

[1048576]

Uh, I go under Corneria's fin. You don't like that. Neither of us have to approach. No timer...congrats, you just created a tournament of infinite duration.

Now can we plaease drop this ******** idea? The timer needs to be there.

 

[xXRoYXx]

Uh, I go under Corneria's fin. You don't like that. Neither of us have to approach. No timer...congrats, you just created a tournament of infinite duration.

Now can we plaease drop this ******** idea? The timer needs to be there.

Agreed, having timer off is no where near an option on fixing anything.

 

[|RK|]

Uh, I go under Corneria's fin. You don't like that. Neither of us have to approach. No timer...congrats, you just created a tournament of infinite duration.

Now can we plaease drop this ******** idea? The timer needs to be there.

Allow me to finish that for you: Corneria charges up it's laser and you are immediately killed. Besides, how many of us here actually stall or try to make our matches longer? The timer doesn't need to be there.

 

[pockyD]

^ doesn't know what a fin is ^

 

[|RK|]

Oh, wait, nvm, lol. I totally messed that up. Ok, so forget the laser thing. But everything else still stands.

 

[deepseadiva]

Besides, how many of us here actually stall or try to make our matches longer? The timer doesn't need to be there.

This is completly ridiculous anyway.

 

[|RK|]

Well, that means that everyone who stalls is ridiculous. Ah, well, I don't grab the ledge much anyway, so this doesn't affect me.

 

[DTKPch]

Here's a nice hypothetical situation for you barlwers to consider:

- Suppose, in this match, there are 2 MKs. Both partake of this "planking" business that you all speak of (haven't visited brawl boards in half a year, so this terminology is new to me).

- Let's they will grab the ledge 50 times each for the purposes of their planking. However, there must be other times when they grab the edge, correct?

- Let's say MK1 is better than MK2 at knocking people off stages. Therefore, MK1 has to legitimately grab the edge only 10 more times, while MK2 has to grab the edge 20 more times (in addition to the 50 planking grabs, that is).

- Pretend, also, that MK2 is better at gimping than MK1, and by virtue of that talent, he wins the match.

Now by this arbitrarily defined limit to the number of times one may grab the ledge, MK2 has lost, when he should have won. The two MKs have "planked" the same amount, but only one of them gets punished for it?

Now this argument can be extended to any arbitrary number of ledge grabs. Suppose you increase the number of legal grabs to 120? Then change the number of plank grabs in the above example from 50 to 100, and the argument still applies.

Also, it is only possible to consider the total number of grabs when setting any rule. You can't say "You lose if you plank grab 70 times" because of several things:
1.) You will have to get people to watch the matches now, since the game's counter won't differentiate between the two types of grabs.
2.) How do you determine what constitutes a plank grab and what doesn't? What if I'm hanging on the ledge, let go, and determine that the opponent is too dangerous right now, and it would not be optimal for me to recover. The logical course of action is to grab on to the ledge again. I have effectively let go of the ledge and grabbed it again without accomplishing anything else. Is that necessarily planking?




On a side note, every time I typed "plank," I had a ridiculously strong urge to spell it "Planck."

 

[AlphaZealot]

Also, it is only possible to consider the total number of grabs when setting any rule. You can't say "You lose if you plank grab 70 times" because of several things:
1.) You will have to get people to watch the matches now, since the game's counter won't differentiate between the two types of grabs.
2.) How do you determine what constitutes a plank grab and what doesn't? What if I'm hanging on the ledge, let go, and determine that the opponent is too dangerous right now, and it would not be optimal for me to recover. The logical course of action is to grab on to the ledge again. I have effectively let go of the ledge and grabbed it again without accomplishing anything else. Is that necessarily planking?

This whole paragraph is mute because the edge grab rule does not specify that you must plank, simply that you cannot grab the edge x number of times. The ideal number, imo somewhere between 30-50, should essentially reduce planking while simultaneously not hindering regular edge play.

Per your example above this paragraph it is likewise mute:

1st, you don't specify how the game ends. If the game ends by KO then it doesn't matter how many times someone grabbed the edge. If you grab the edge 3,000 times but also KO the opponent 3 times in under 8 minutes then you still win under this rule. This rule only goes into effect when the timer runs out and one person was over X edge grabs. The winner of two people who grab each over the limit is determined by the same stock/percent as a regular match.

2nd, why would someone grab the edge 50 times under this rule. The rule is specifically designed to limit you grabbing the edge, so as to discourage planking but not specifically (is is possible edge camping strategies of other characters like ROB/Pit are likewise hindered). If you grab the edge to many times you lost under this rule and you should STOP grabbing the edge needlessly 50 times in an effort to plank someone, camp someone, or otherwise (like you just suck a lot and keep getting hit of the stage).

---

Regarding time limits: time limits need to stay. People who have suggested otherwise need to ask themselves what ANY game would be like without a time limit (seriously, is there even a single competitive game that doesn't use a timer? In chess you have a clock, Halo/CS/SF/all other competitive video games have timers (mabye WoW doesn't?), all sports use timers, the list goes on). Essentially, it is dumb to suggest that the timer be taken off. Without time limits there is nothing to stop a match from lasting until infinity (as has already been brought up). Remember, at a tournament, if just ONE match is delayed an hour or two, then the entire tournament is likewise delayed that amount of time. If 95% of people will play normally without a timer great, but if 5% decide its better to site under the fin of Corneria with 2 stock 0%, and the opponent figures its better he stay on top with 3 stock 50%, and neither approaches each other, then you have no way of actually ending the match. The winning player doesn't need to approach and doesn't want to approach a strong position. Likewise the losing player doesn't need to approach (because matches only end if someone gets 3 KO's) and doesn't want to approach a likewise strong position.

 

[complexity1234]

i played against a mario with dedede and in order to avoid the chain grab he played defensive using the edge (using aerials, fireballs, etc). I never felt like he was camping, just playing smart. Other characters could do that too to avoid the CG. He hit about 40 ledgegrabs in about 5 and a half minutes. Im thinking it should never fall below 50 or 55, thats cutting it too close.
70 seems about right, possibly 60 or 65

This whole paragraph is mute because the edge grab rule does not specify that you must plank, simply that you cannot grab the edge x number of times. The ideal number, imo somewhere between 30-50, should essentially reduce planking while simultaneously not hindering regular edge play.

just remember that you have to consider every situation in the game of every character matchup in order to pick a fair number of edge grabs. (a more conservative number)

 

[Adrostos]

honestly i dislike the rule however its put.
though grabing a ledge 70 times in a 8 minute long match isnt very likely to happen for me or for many others id assume.
its not out of reality here.
camping and stalling is much different then strategicaly grabing the ledge. It is not just different in purpose but obvious visual differences.
if my opponent grabs the ledge 7 times in a row without me actually interupting him and forcing him to get back to the ledge for safty then i doubt its smart ledge games and more like stalling.

i will admit i do use the ledge frequently for certain scenarios against certain characters and i dont wanna have to worry about loseing a match due to some stupid ledge grabing rule that was meant to stop stalling/planking when i wasnt stalling. and moreover i dont wanna have to think about it half way thru a match and interupt my momentum and change my play style mid match so i dont get DQ'ed
honestly i dont think the rule should be implimented in ne cases
>_> just say "stall much nub?" and theyll prolly stop :D
and if its against a particular tourney rule and the stalling starts pissing u off or the time runs out and u lose due to a stock or % count then tell a host or puase the game idk


but if the rules implimented i think alphazealot has a good idea of how to make it work :D

 

[AlphaZealot]

just remember that you have to consider every situation in the game of every character matchup in order to pick a fair number of edge grabs. (a more conservative number)

I would say this is actually false. The scenario should encompass 99% of matches, which a 30-40 edge grab rule would. The remaining 1% will have to learn to adapt better and move away from just retreating to the edge continually for safety or using edge camping to get by as their general play style (cough OS ROB clones cough).