The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[Turbo Ether]

^

I'm an advocate of "banning as little as possible".

 

[Thinkaman]

My favorite example is the Ness grab-release infinite. People whined and whined and whined, until Ref actually tried to get out of it and was able to do so. Yeah yeah, Charizard can still do it, but who cares.

Same thing with "infinite" reflectors and laser locks... And heck, Meta Knight.

Give it a year or two, and the Brawl community with mature and have set standards jsut like Melee did over time. I'm not sure why anyone would expect otherwise...

 

[FalseFalco]

I'm pretty sure the japanese don't use this rule, and if they do I would be very surprised.

THIS IS SUCH A BAD IDEA

JESUS

the enforceability of this is ******** and IMPRACTICAL. Especially if the match was close. There will be way too many disputes over childish things like "camping" or "you only won because ___". Also, there's no great way to distinguish between times you NEED to grab the ledge over times you're camping. If I've recovered 69 times and get knocked off, I lose the match if I don't land on the stage. Wtf? no thanks.

This is the equivalent of putting a limit on the number of steps you can take in a game of tag

 

[teh_spamerer]

at least i know in brawl if i don't like something i can create a thread about getting it banned and a legion of newbies will hop on-board the ban train and it will become a huge brawl fad. (MK, IDC, DDD INF, planking etc). Brawl players are all 14 and don't know what it's like to play a competitive game so rather than coping with/learning to beat things, they all just scream "BAN BAN BAN" and hold hands and form together a giant line of ******* that bulldoze their way through every tactic they find "cheap"

good **** brawl

I agree with this post. Brawl community = mainly crybabies.

 

[bobson]

the enforceability of this is ******** and IMPRACTICAL. Especially if the match was close. There will be way too many disputes over childish things like "camping" or "you only won because ___". Also, there's no great way to distinguish between times you NEED to grab the ledge over times you're camping. If I've recovered 69 times and get knocked off, I lose the match if I don't land on the stage. Wtf? no thanks.

It seems that you are rejecting this rule because you believe:

[ ] Planking should not be banned.
[X] It is unenforceable.
[X] People will be disqualified for legitimately recovering without planking.
[ ] You can still plank by just grabbing the ledge 69 times.
[ ] The Melee community would've never banned something like this.
[ ] Brawl sucks anyway.

You are wrong. Here is why you are wrong:

[ ] This is not a proposal to ban planking, but a replacement for anti-planking rules already in use.
[X] There is a ledge grab count statistic at the end of the match which can be used to objectively determine if someone should be disqualified.
[X] If you are forced to recover every six seconds, I'm afraid you were going to lose anyway.
[ ] Planking becomes less effective with a forced limit.
[ ] Brawl and Melee have largely different game engines.
[ ] But it has Snake!

In addition, here is some helpful advice:

[ ] "This rule is stupid" is not a valid argument.
[X] Stating an invalid point arrogantly does not make it less invalid.
[X] You should read the first post before attempting to refute it.
[X] I don't like you.

 

[kr3wman]

wtf happened to this thread. seriously.

 

[BentoBox]

Melee community in its younger days = super mature.

wait.

 

[Eaode]

The Brawl community is like half-leftover from the Melee community in its later days = should be more mature.

 

[OverLade]

I'm pretty sure the japanese don't use this rule, and if they do I would be very surprised.

THIS IS SUCH A BAD IDEA

JESUS

the enforceability of this is ******** and IMPRACTICAL. Especially if the match was close. There will be way too many disputes over childish things like "camping" or "you only won because ___". Also, there's no great way to distinguish between times you NEED to grab the ledge over times you're camping. If I've recovered 69 times and get knocked off, I lose the match if I don't land on the stage. Wtf? no thanks.

This is the equivalent of putting a limit on the number of steps you can take in a game of tag

Did you even read a single page of the thread?

 

[cman]

You are wrong. Here is why you are wrong:

[ ] This is not a proposal to ban planking, but a replacement for anti-planking rules already in use.
[X] There is a ledge grab count statistic at the end of the match which can be used to objectively determine if someone should be disqualified.
[X] If you are forced to recover every six seconds, I'm afraid you were going to lose anyway.
[ ] Planking becomes less effective with a forced limit.
[ ] Brawl and Melee have largely different game engines.
[ ] But it has Snake!

Here is another one to add:

[X] This rule only takes effect if time runs out.

 

[FalseFalco]

I don't know why i bother responding to a scantron machine but I guess ill just sift through the useless **** you posted

It seems that you are rejecting this rule because you believe:

[X] It is unenforceable.
[X] People will be disqualified for legitimately recovering without planking.

I'm rejecting this rule because if enforced, it would have the potential to ruin perfectly good matches, and tournaments. The rule suggests "ledge camping is ok, but only to this extent". I don't want to have to count the times I grab the ledge, and neither should anyone else.

This kind of bs comes up whenever people start *****ing about camping. Camping sucks, yes, but it's not a bannable offense. Having these strings and conditions don't produce a better game. What does this rule achieve again? "fairer" gameplay? The rule is designed to cause a few lame players some grief because they can't play the way they want. That's not helping improve the way the game is played for the rest of the community.

Besides which can you imagine having an intense close 8 minute game 5 match, winning by a hair, and then the other person winning because of 70 ledge grabs? are you fisting me?

You are wrong. Here is why you are wrong:

[X] If you are forced to recover every six seconds, I'm afraid you were going to lose anyway.

Is that what you're going to tell someone who legitimately got screwed by this rule? If so I hope you never host a tournament.

In addition, here is some helpful advice:

[ ] "This rule is stupid" is not a valid argument.
[X] Stating an invalid point arrogantly does not make it less invalid.
[X] You should read the first post before attempting to refute it.
[X] I don't like you.

thx bro


In closing, I UNDERSTAND WHY this kind of rule would be designed, I UNDERSTAND the issues with ledge camping. The problem of ledge camping is not easily solved, but this is most definitely NOT the way to solve it. Ledge camping doesn't meet any of the 4 requirements for a ban, and this thread is a sad attempt at making the problem meet requirement #1: enforceable.

 

[bobson]

I'm rejecting this rule because if enforced, it would have the potential to ruin perfectly good matches, and tournaments.

No it wouldn't.
Find me a match where someone legitimately grabs the edge 70 times without planking and I will concede that it could.

 

[Shin Ike]

I don't want to have to count the times I grab the ledge, and neither should anyone else.

I guess you really haven't read the thread buddy. as previously stated.......the game counts for you and you can check how many times you've grabbed the ledge in the results screen......kinda sad actually and also very annoying how people keep coming in and saying "blah blah blah i dont wanna count how many times i grabbed the ledge etc." just makes you look really stupid for not reading the thread and realizing that THE GAME COUNTS FOR YOU. And don't even talk about legitimately grabbing the ledge even 50 times let alone 70 times in a match for recovery purposes and whatnot cuz you know that is simply bs. if yo u disagree, then go ahead and find a game (just like everyone else has been saying) where someone LEGITIMATELY grabs the ledge that many times.

 

[FalseFalco]

No it wouldn't.
Find me a match where someone legitimately grabs the edge 70 times without planking and I will concede that it could.

and what constitutes planking? 5 edge grabs in a row? 10? what if I come back on the stage and shoot projectiles in between?

The problem isn't definable and therefore not bannable, ESPECIALLY not in this way.

Good stuff neglecting the rest of my post too.

I guess you really haven't read the thread buddy. as previously stated.......the game counts for you and you can check how many times you've grabbed the ledge in the results screen......kinda sad actually and also very annoying how people keep coming in and saying "blah blah blah i dont wanna count how many times i grabbed the ledge etc." just makes you look really stupid for not reading the thread and realizing that THE GAME COUNTS FOR YOU.

Fail.

I'm talking about mid match. If its last stock and I've only got 10 ledge grabs left I have to be more conservative. That's more **** I shouldn't need to be thinking about.

 

[Shin Ike]

Fail.

I'm talking about mid match. If its last stock and I've only got 10 ledge grabs left I have to be more conservative. That's more **** I shouldn't need to be thinking about.

exactly my point......why the **** would you only have "10 ledge grabs left" unless you were being gay and planking in the first place?

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I agree with this post. Brawl community = mainly crybabies.

you tend to be the reason people cry in the smash community period

 

[bobson]

and what constitutes planking? 5 edge grabs in a row? 10? what if I come back on the stage and shoot projectiles in between?

For the terms of my challenge? Go with your gut.

The problem isn't definable and therefore not bannable, ESPECIALLY not in this way.

Therefore, we define the problem as 70 ledge grabs in a match, something everyone in this thread has yet to prove is possible without planking.

Good stuff neglecting the rest of my post too.

The rest of your post was irrelevant.

It seems you don't quite grasp exactly how large the number 70 is for this case.

 

[FalseFalco]

For the terms of my challenge? Go with your gut.


Therefore, we define the problem as 70 ledge grabs in a match, something everyone in this thread has yet to prove is possible without planking.


The rest of your post was irrelevant.

It seems you don't quite grasp exactly how large the number 70 is for this case.

I guess I'll have to be even more rudimentary: Define planking.
protip: you can't. It's based on opinion.

It's not about the number. The number could be anything and the rule will still not properly address the problem of "planking".

 

[Melomaniacal]

Well, I've been paying attention to my ledge grabs lately, and I can pretty safely say that 70 is far, far too much. I planked a match pretty badly, and ended up with something like 47 grabs.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

I still think something should be done about "campy" warios. They dont camp they stall >_>

 

[pockyD]

I guess I'll have to be even more rudimentary: Define planking.
protip: you can't. It's based on opinion.

It's not about the number. The number could be anything and the rule will still not properly address the problem of "planking".

are you intentionally being dense, or what?

the point of the rule is to define planking as "70 ledgegrabs per match". whether you agree that it's what "planking" is or not doesn't change anything if it were to ever make it into a ruleset. maybe I think that "dave's stupid rule" is that "game 2 is always played on wario ware"... but if the rules say otherwise, then it doesn't matter what I think or whether I agree

Look at it this way if you find the term "planking" confusing and ambiguous (which it really is): the rule doesn't ban planking. It bans grabbing the edge 70 times in a match.

 

[FalseFalco]

are you intentionally being dense, or what?

the point of the rule is to define planking as "70 ledgegrabs per match". whether you agree that it's what "planking" is or not doesn't change anything if it were to ever make it into a ruleset. maybe I think that "dave's stupid rule" is that "game 2 is always played on wario ware"... but if the rules say otherwise, then it doesn't matter what I think or whether I agree

Whether or not people agree DETERMINES whether it makes it to a ruleset.

Using something arbitrary like 70 will inevitably have people disagreeing.

70 is pretty reasonable, and realistically if it was implemented none of my gameplay would be affected, but my issue isn't with how this rule affects me, my issue is that the formulation of this rule goes against the correct way to deal with bans.

Edge camping can't be properly defined and therefore can't be properly banned.

 

[OverLade]

I still think something should be done about "campy" warios. They dont camp they stall >_>

Lol DMG vs Razer? Razer was ahead, it was his fault...

But yeah you can't do anything about that, but that's really matchup dependent anyway because there are a lot of matchups where one player could probably run away without grabbing the ledge successfully.

Banning planking is only necessary because of how gay planking is, but trying to ban a character's mindgame and aerial mobility ability is stretching it.

 

[pockyD]

Whether or not people agree DETERMINES whether it makes it to a ruleset.

No, not at all. Whether the tournament director decides an action is bannable or not DETERMINES whether it makes it to a ruleset.

Using something arbitrary like 70 will inevitably have people disagreeing.

no more so than

"Rules: No planking is allowed."

they may disagree that 70 grabs is game-breaking going into the tournament, but when it comes time to determine whether they did anything that should cause them to forfeit their match at the tournament, there will be no disagreement at all.

70 is pretty reasonable, and realistically if it was implemented none of my gameplay would be affected, but my issue isn't with how this rule affects me, my issue is that the formulation of this rule goes against the correct way to deal with bans.

Edge camping can't be properly defined and therefore can't be properly banned.

Look at it this way if you find the term "planking" confusing and ambiguous (which it really is): the rule doesn't ban planking. It bans grabbing the edge 70 times in a match.

replace "planking" with "Edge camping" or whatever term you select... point being, it wouldn't matter if you wanted to call it "McMuffinizing"

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Lol DMG vs Razer? Razer was ahead, it was his fault...

But yeah you can't do anything about that, but that's really matchup dependent anyway because there are a lot of matchups where one player could probably run away without grabbing the ledge successfully.

Banning planking is only necessary because of how gay planking is, but trying to ban a character's mindgame and aerial mobility ability is stretching it.

lol i didnt see that video, but i've seen others of warios and have had it happen to me before >_>

 

[FalseFalco]

No, not at all. Whether the tournament director decides an action is bannable or not DETERMINES whether it makes it to a ruleset.

True

no more so than

"Rules: No planking is allowed."

Also a ridiculous ban.

they may disagree that 70 grabs is game-breaking going into the tournament, but when it comes time to determine whether they did anything that should cause them to forfeit their match at the tournament, there will be no disagreement at all.

When I lose to it I will be pissed, but my position won't change on whether it's gamebreaking or not. For me it comes down to the fundamentals of fighting games. If you lost to a tactic that some think is "too good", then you lost because you didn't do it first, better, faster, whatever. Others share this opinion.

replace "planking" with "Edge camping" or whatever term you select... point being, it wouldn't matter if you wanted to call it "McMuffinizing"

It think it should be called mcmuffinizing.

 

[OverLade]

This rule doesnt ban planking, which is even better... it just limits it.

No johns.

 

[teh_spamerer]

you tend to be the reason people cry in the smash community period

Why thank you

I still think something should be done about "campy" warios. They dont camp they stall >_>

I propose we start a "Ban Wario" movement. He's TOO good, forget Meta Knight I mean, just read this youtuber's comment

im not even watching this. Spamerer....playing as wario? not even CLOSE to entertaining.

 

[fsdfsdgsgdf]

Yea that was me that left that comment lolololololol

 

[bobson]

Also a ridiculous ban.

Yet TOs are using it. In tournaments that matter. And there's really nothing we can do about that.
This is merely a much less subjective replacement for that.

 

[Praxis]

When I lose to it I will be pissed, but my position won't change on whether it's gamebreaking or not. For me it comes down to the fundamentals of fighting games. If you lost to a tactic that some think is "too good", then you lost because you didn't do it first, better, faster, whatever. Others share this opinion.

Then explain why items are banned.

We can't delude ourselves here. We're playing a game that was intended to be anti-competitive. We don't have the luxury of other fighting games; we have to define certain rules to bend it into a legitamite competitive game. That meant banning items and stages first. Now planking needs to be considered, because it's a legit hinderance to playable games and we've already taken the authority upon ourselves to ban what needs to be banned to make this into a competitive game.

90% of the cast has no way to deal with a planking MK.

 

[FalseFalco]

We're playing a game that was intended to be anti-competitive. We don't have the luxury of other fighting games; we have to define certain rules to bend it into a legitamite competitive game.

we've already taken the authority upon ourselves to ban what needs to be banned to make this into a competitive game.

90% of the cast has no way to deal with a planking MK.

I'm referring to Melee.

I don't know enough about competitive Brawl to have an opinion on whether or not it is gamebreaking or not, but I can see how it might be. At least quite a bit more-so than Melee.

 

[Stevo]

I just want to ask one thing.

Rapidly using your grapple move over and over is a very good way of keeping invincibility frames on the ledge in brawl. My question is, will this be, or is this, a technique that people will use to simply edge guard.

like lets say im shiek and i like to rapidly grapple the ledge while my opponant is recovering until i see an opportunity to ledge guard. Lets say I do this 15 times in a match.

am i really plankking in this situation? no. am i gonna get over 70 ledge grabs? possibly

 

[ssbbFICTION]

A person would have to call you for planking which they wouldn't unless you actually were.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I just want to ask one thing.

Rapidly using your grapple move over and over is a very good way of keeping invincibility frames on the ledge in brawl. My question is, will this be, or is this, a technique that people will use to simply edge guard.

like lets say im shiek and i like to rapidly grapple the ledge while my opponant is recovering until i see an opportunity to ledge guard. Lets say I do this 15 times in a match.

am i really plankking in this situation? no. am i gonna get over 70 ledge grabs? possibly

I don't know the specifics of Sheik, but I think what is true for TL/Link is true for all tethers, which is to say you can actually only tether to the edge 3 times before landing. On the 4th try the tether doesn't actually grab the edge.

Regardless, you would not get over 70. You would have to grab the edge SO much to get over 70. Actually test it out if you do not believe me.

 

[Nope]

I read through most of this thread and see many people saying they would possibly break 70 ledge grabs in a game. I would like everyone to start actually looking at the amount of ledge grabs after each game whether it's a friendly, tourney, MM or whatever. Most characters in the average game will never exceed 15 grabs. Some characters even less (snake averages under 10 for example). It would also help as a community for everyone to give there input on the average edge grabs per game that they have with certain characters and stages. This way a reasonable number could be found.

I do like the idea of this actually replacing the generic "No Planking" rule at some tournaments. I'm not saying planking should not or should be banned just saying it's a nice and enforceable alternative.


Edit: Sorry if someone already pointed this out I skipped a few pages

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I think the number should be under 70. Planking for the last 3 minutes for the last stock isnt very good either >_>

 

[Nope]

I think the number should be under 70. Planking for the last 3 minutes for the last stock isnt very good either >_>

I might have to agree with this but 70 is a good starting number and I think more testing from the community itself would help determine where it needs to be.

 

[RPK]

Be aware that in japan, this rule only goes into effect if the timer runs out.

If one is over the limit than that person loses the match
If both are over the limit, than it is then decided through stock, and then percent like normal.

 

[Stevo]

I don't know the specifics of Sheik, but I think what is true for TL/Link is true for all tethers, which is to say you can actually only tether to the edge 3 times before landing. On the 4th try the tether doesn't actually grab the edge.

Regardless, you would not get over 70. You would have to grab the edge SO much to get over 70. Actually test it out if you do not believe me.

I tried a few matches where i purposely grabbed the ledge more then usual and i was never over 70.
also, I didnt realise the rule would only be put into effect if the timer runs out.
I guess what im saying is I support that the rule won't affect people who dont plankk.

However, like many have said, 70 leaves it possible to plankk at the end of a match, so it could be lower, but at what point can you balance hurting plankking and not affecting normal gameplay