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The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

JonaDiaper

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
2,138
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Port Chester, New York
lol you guys suck. the law is based on opinion, well rather on how judges interpret it. which is theyre opinion

i would have DQ'd him when i realized it was plank lol jk
am i that hard to understand?

"People tgst are in the know for this type of stuff". <-thats you Red
"People that are known for this type of stuff" <- what i actually said

theres a difference and maybe thats why you dont get me.
if i knew plank was gonna be at a tourney and i was hosting, i would follow that mother and make sure hes in check, because im not gonna let someone win money that doesnt deserve it.
w/e thats me.

and asian boy, "everyone here"? really? Red and you? thats soooo many people
and you know im right about camping. so what if it has a name. EVERYTHING in smash has a name. big whoop. i read your post and it seemed you werent certain about what you wrote. like you were just writing it to be against me lol w/e son
 

kr3wman

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
4,639

OverLade

Smash Hero
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lol you guys suck. the law is based on opinion, well rather on how judges interpret it. which is theyre opinion

i would have DQ'd him when i realized it was plank lol jk
am i that hard to understand?

"People tgst are in the know for this type of stuff". <-thats you Red
"People that are known for this type of stuff" <- what i actually said

theres a difference and maybe thats why you dont get me.
if i knew plank was gonna be at a tourney and i was hosting, i would follow that mother and make sure hes in check, because im not gonna let someone win money that doesnt deserve it.
w/e thats me.

and asian boy, "everyone here"? really? Red and you? thats soooo many people
and you know im right about camping. so what if it has a name. EVERYTHING in smash has a name. big whoop. i read your post and it seemed you werent certain about what you wrote. like you were just writing it to be against me lol w/e son
Based on this post I concur that you're an idiot and that nothing you've said is even relevant. Of course you're very hard to understand because what you say doesn't make any sense.

You're just trolling at this point. If you don't want people to plank, then a 70 edge grab rule is far better than anything you've suggested, and if there are any arguements in favor of a judge instead, you haven't made any of them.

I'm done wasting time so if someone else want's to help you realize how futile your arguement is, they can.
 

Airborne

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Jun 17, 2007
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so if yoshi has to return to the stage, and grabs the ledge, one of his best options is to use edge cancelled eggs...... so you're saying if this went to effect, yoshi's returning to stage attempts could be greatly impaired, due to him "technically" grabbing the ledge while trying to prevent the other guy from correctly spacing his return on to the stage? makes 70 sound a bit much, even for yoshi. XD
 

Amazing Ampharos

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The idea of a number as big as 70 was to not really inhibit that sort of tactic unless you were doing it for minutes on end (and if you were, it was ledgestalling with a different name all along). The only real effect this rule would have would be to weaken real ledgestalling; basically any other use of ledgegrabs has no hope of reaching 70. It's reasonable to argue that ledgestalling doesn't need weakening (I'm not convinced it does), but that's pretty clearly about the only thing this rule affects. At worst, you could say that Yoshi is allowed to ledgestall less than other characters because he likes to ledge cancel his eggs as an attacking option. That isn't beyond the scope of the current rules really since our arbitrary percentage tiebreak system is already biased against heavy characters a bit. If I'm at 81% as Bowser and my opponent is at 80% as Jigglypuff, I was "winning" in the sense that my opponent is closer to death than I am, but the tiebreak system makes me lose. It's not a big deal, but it is a consequence of the rule to be aware of.

Anyway, the "system" JonaDiaper is proposing is almost funny since he's basically advocating the archtypical fuzzy rule. Yes, rules are subject to interpretation and uneven enforcement; that's inevitable. However, we don't strive to promote that in law or in competitive gaming. Like, we can't have IRS agents auditing every person's taxes every year. It's not reasonable. However, at the same time, we don't make our tax law "pay about 10% of what you earn, but pay less if you have tough circumstances and more if you're rich" with people being held in line by judges. Since it's possible to concretely define taxation rates, the tax code is very specific about how much you owe given any possible circumstances. An IRS auditor can't be "nice" or "mean" since there is extremely little ambiguity in the tax code. If someone finds some abuseable loophole and ends up paying radically fewer taxes than they should, that's fine. Their actions were within the law, and they will not be punished for it except perhaps by a change in the law so they can't do it again next year.

It is true though that some laws are naturally bound to be more fuzzy than others. Take harassment. If I call you 20 times a day for a week and cause you great distress, that's probably harassment. However, what if you're an extremely close business associate from whom I really need information 20 times a day for a week? What if we have extremely poor cell phone service and keep having to call each other back for dropped calls? On the other hand, I could only call you once a week but say deeply disturbing things when I do, and that would be pretty clearly harassment if I kept it up after you told me to stop calling you. This law is definitely fuzzy, but how could you even define harassment explicitly if you wanted to? It's all about the effect it has on the person you are making contact with, and it inevitably must be up to interpretation.

Now take the case of ledge stalling. Is it more like tax code or harassment? The question is whether you have some way of quantifying how much ledgestalling the opponent is doing. What a coincidence; the game has an internal counter for ledge grabs. It's entirely possible to rigidly define ledgestalling. Yeah, we might have some loopholes where people can ledgestall just some and get a lot out of it, but overall we can make it a pretty clear rule that will adequately cover the "problem" that those who want to make rules against ledgestalling see. Why would we opt for a fuzzy rule? What advantage does the fuzzy rule have? It increases the need for judges both numerically (they have to see the game in action, not just the results screen) and in terms of qualification (my little sister could make a ruling with a hard count rule, but she wouldn't be able to make good subjective rulings). It increases the variation in terms of judges and adds a level of partial treatment (you even admit this!). I see no gain and a bunch of losses; why would anyone ever support that?
 

OverLade

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Tampa, FL
so if yoshi has to return to the stage, and grabs the ledge, one of his best options is to use edge cancelled eggs...... so you're saying if this went to effect, yoshi's returning to stage attempts could be greatly impaired, due to him "technically" grabbing the ledge while trying to prevent the other guy from correctly spacing his return on to the stage? makes 70 sound a bit much, even for yoshi. XD
70 is FAR too high a number to affect any characters normal ledgegame.

Been discussed.
 

Genome Squirrel

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how can you determine the right number?
planking can turn a small lead into a huge one with a dozen or so ledgegrabs
 

AlphaZealot

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I used this rule at a tournament this weekend. The number I used was 60. I encouraged people to check their edge grabs. Almost everyone was surprised at the numbers, some games the edge grabs were as low as 2-3 per person, and that was in the finals of the tournament. There were 2 Meta Knights in the top 5.

No problems came up with the rule. No one complained about it. No one "planked" that I saw. And finally no one got over 60 edge grabs, and once again the average for most people was under likely under 10. Next time I run a tournament I'll probably make the rule 50 edge grabs.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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Good **** alpha, maybe with your tournament you can lower it to like 45 or something and that will be a staple rule. Thank god somebody is actually doing something with it instead of being hypothetical.
 

Melomaniacal

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Honestly, that's enough evidence for me. I don't see why this shouldn't be used. It discourages planking, is reasonable, and easy to enforce. The only thing in argument is whether or not planking should be illegal.
 

OverLade

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I think reasonably 40 seems like a good number. Characters that even use a lot of ledgegame shouldn't have too much of a problem not reaching that number. Of course more testing is necessary, but it's a great start.
 

Shintarru

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I tested this with olimar and I average around 40-50. I was surprised I grab the edge so much.
 

deepseadiva

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It was only one tournament. More testing is needed. We shall see how things go with 50 next month.
Exactly.

Though it's a good rule overall, I can completly see someone getting legitimately screwed by this rule. It'll be rare and won't happen at one tournament.
 

Thinkaman

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The theme of this thread is that most people simply cannot understand how high of a number 70 (or 60 or 50) is...

As Jiggs sometimes I don't touch the ground period, only getting jumps back from the ledge. Even then I would not be close to any discussed threshold.
 

pure_awesome

Smash Lord
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Sep 17, 2007
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For the record, in the match that's always referred to in discussions about planking (Plank vers SK92), Plank only grabs the ledge 89 times... and 71 of those grabs were on his last stock.

I'm surprised people are running with such high numbers. Somewhere around 40 seems nice to me. I don't even think I grab the ledge 5 times a stock. Then again, I play Falco.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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40 would be pretty intrusive. That's only about 13 ledgegrabs per stock which certain character/stage combos are pretty likely to produce. If I'm playing on Norfair, I can do that just moving around normally. The Falco point hits home; he has a sucky ledgegame. Those of us who use characters like Mr. Game & Watch who have amazing ledgegames would prefer a number big enough so you don't have to worry about it if there's insistence on an anti-ledgestalling rule. 60 or 70 are much better; the whole point is that the number should be really high as to only discourage the one thing. The only thing a lower number really accomplishes (beyond the risk of punishing other ledgegrabbing tactics) is allowing ledgestalling with low time to be better, and if you weren't aggressive enough even with 70 ledgegrabs in place to have ended things by the time the ledgestalling is going to come into play, you earned what's coming to you.

AlphaZealot's testing is interesting for hammering out just how various numbers tend to go though. I'm curious; how much was Norfair played in the previous tournament? That stage seems to revolve around ledgegames so it is probably a good benchmark for what the higher end of reasonable ledgegrabbing is.
 

Thanatos*~

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instrumentality
Wow. Grabbing the ledge every 6.86 seconds is a perfectly reasonable situation? Just...no. I would venture to say that there has never been a 7 or 8 minute match where a player has legitimately grabbed the ledge 70 times.
Probly not, but I've gotten close. I've timed out plenty of times on like delfino and stuff. Places like that make ledge grabbing easier(going under and stuff). I think this rule is kinda silly though. Next thin you know people will develop strategies to get people to grab the ledge 70 times or something lul
 

AlphaZealot

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For my own matches I went to Norfair IIRC 3 times, I never had more than 24 edge grabs. Don't know about the opponents though (the norfair matches usually went pretty quick).
 

TheNix

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 4, 2008
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Newfoundland
I actually really like this rule. 50 grabs is a good number. The only way I could see someone reaching that number without planking would be in a long match on Norfair, and if that rule existed, people could just adjust their Norfair play-style a little bit and it wont be a problem. In fact, it might even reduce the number of complaints that I hear about that stage.
 

[FBC] ESAM

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Thats true, it will be more bearable since you can't just ledgecamp.

On an unrelated note, Alpha, why are you a super moderator?
 

momochuu

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I really like the 50 grab count. 70 ledge grabs is ridiculous.
 

Plairnkk

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at least i know in brawl if i don't like something i can create a thread about getting it banned and a legion of newbies will hop on-board the ban train and it will become a huge brawl fad. (MK, IDC, DDD INF, planking etc). Brawl players are all 14 and don't know what it's like to play a competitive game so rather than coping with/learning to beat things, they all just scream "BAN BAN BAN" and hold hands and form together a giant line of ******* that bulldoze their way through every tactic they find "cheap"

good **** brawl
 

AlphaZealot

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Meh.

After I try out the 50 limit I probably won't have the rule in my rulesets anymore. I'm not actually in favor of banning planking, but tournaments need to have a rule that works instead of one that doesn't.
 

Turbo Ether

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at least i know in brawl if i don't like something i can create a thread about getting it banned and a legion of newbies will hop on-board the ban train and it will become a huge brawl fad. (MK, IDC, DDD INF, planking etc). Brawl players are all 14 and don't know what it's like to play a competitive game so rather than coping with/learning to beat things, they all just scream "BAN BAN BAN" and hold hands and form together a giant line of ******* that bulldoze their way through every tactic they find "cheap"

good **** brawl
I agree with this, but the same thing was done with Melee to an extent. Smash by default is terrible, competitively by it's own community's standards.
 

Plairnkk

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I agree with this, but the same thing was done with Melee to an extent. Smash by default is terrible, competitively.
Things in melee were only banned that inherently ruined the game by stalling. (Jigglys rising pound, IC freeze glitch, ETC) Tactics themselves were not banned almost ever. If the brawl community had played melee I can already come up with at like 5 threads off the top of my head that would've been made by the community and became a huge fad to get banned.

chaingrabbing as a whole, sheik as a whole at the beginning, fox's infinite against walls, jiggs resting (OMG SOO BROKEN!!!!), wavedashing/advance techs as a whole, etc etc.

No offense ether, you're a cool guy, but the brawl community is a bunch of ******* and as a whole, sucks. The melee community was 100x more fun to be around and the people were way more mature. Brawl players are by default younger and less intelligent (mostly because the game is easier to play) and it makes for more threads like this.
 

AlphaZealot

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Plank, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you ban wobbling at Pound 2 and 3?

Also Smashboards had many of the same problems when Melee was still young. The community will grow, get older, and become more mature. The main difference between Melee in 2003 and Brawl in 2009 is that Melee in 2003 had very few older players to lead things. Brawl in 2009 has a big mix between young and old so there is much more clashing. Melee in 2002/2003 was pretty chaotic if anyone remembers. Heck, the items debate alone crept up like ever 2 weeks and just never seemed to go away (thank god TG6 banned items).

So long as prominent tournaments run using different rules then there will be clashing of ideology. Once large, important tournaments begin to only side one way (to ban or not to ban) then the clashing will likely stop.
 

Plairnkk

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Very true, I didn't take into account that I started melee a lot further into the game than Brawl. And btw, I am for the DDD infinite to be banned, under the same principle that I thought wobbling should be banned, I was just using the infinite as another example.
 

cman

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I chuckled a bit to myself when you mentioned the IDC, but then went on to say that melee rightfully banned things that broke the game by stalling. I understand that you weren't saying that IDC should be legal though.

Also, the stupidity has lessened compared to what it was when brawl first came out. I'm sure it will continue, and in another year or so, the community will be fairly close to the maturity level it was at when you joined. Whenever a new game is released it's going to bring a lot of new people to the community, and a lot of those are going to be dumb. Melee'ers really shouldn't have expected anything else.
 

Turbo Ether

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Things in melee were only banned that inherently ruined the game by stalling. (Jigglys rising pound, IC freeze glitch, ETC) Tactics themselves were not banned almost ever. If the brawl community had played melee I can already come up with at like 5 threads off the top of my head that would've been made by the community and became a huge fad to get banned.

chaingrabbing as a whole, sheik as a whole at the beginning, fox's infinite against walls, jiggs resting (OMG SOO BROKEN!!!!), wavedashing/advance techs as a whole, etc etc.

No offense ether, you're a cool guy, but the brawl community is a bunch of ******* and as a whole, sucks. The melee community was 100x more fun to be around and the people were way more mature. Brawl players are by default younger and less intelligent (mostly because the game is easier to play) and it makes for more threads like this.
Ya, I get what you're saying. If I ever ran anything, people would complain/flame because almost everything in the game would be legal. Only items and a few stages would be off, pretty much.
 

ZoSo

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Things in melee were only banned that inherently ruined the game by stalling. (Jigglys rising pound, IC freeze glitch, ETC) Tactics themselves were not banned almost ever. If the brawl community had played melee I can already come up with at like 5 threads off the top of my head that would've been made by the community and became a huge fad to get banned.

chaingrabbing as a whole, sheik as a whole at the beginning, fox's infinite against walls, jiggs resting (OMG SOO BROKEN!!!!), wavedashing/advance techs as a whole, etc etc.
I'm not 100% on this, but I don't believe there's been any uproar to ban conventional chaingrabs with DDD (i.e. not involving a wall or against DK et cetera), Falco's laser lock, Luigi's jab > up-B nonsense, glide tossing... Other stuff comes to mind but you get the idea.

I think you were probably exaggerating a little, but I do think there are parallels to be drawn.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I'd like to point out the "solution" to Fox's wall infinite in melee wasn't to just flat out allow it but to ban most stages where it could be done. That's not exactly a point where the melee community can claim moral high ground.

For that matter, you're a MD/VA player, and I was under the impression that your region banned lots of stages (though several tournament threads from that region don't seem to even list legal stages...). A lot of the people who are advocating banning 2/3 to 3/4 of the stages in the game are people who were a part of the melee community as far as I can tell; from what I see, people who got in new to brawl are somewhat more likely to want to play the game and only ban what stages have to be banned. There's not even much documentation about why assorted stages back in the melee day were banned; as someone who only followed the community loosely back then and is looking back, it makes it look like the melee people as a whole didn't care very much about allowing as many stages as possible. Like, I look for the rigorous evidence that clearly proves that camping on the rock on Kongo Jungle is broken (as opposed to just obnoxious), and I just can't find it. Am I just looking in the wrong places, or were people just apathetic about this stage being banned?

I'd like to point out in the end that Meta Knight wasn't banned. It was mostly scrub whining that didn't actually do anything. That 60% vote was embarrassing for the community no doubt, but we're past that issue for the most part.

I notice the melee community entertained banning "planking":

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=132416

Given that as a tactic ledgestalling was far less widely used in melee (regardless of whether it was as good or not), this seems like about the magnitude of response I'd expect from the brawl community in that situation.

I also see in that topic and others discussion that Corneria is a banworthy stage because it promotes camping. Given even a small representation of that position in the old SBR (a silly position; promoting camping isn't banworthy), I find it hard to believe that the old melee community was any better than the current brawl community.

I actually do distress over banning too much; I really would advocate banning none of these "controversial issues" (ledgestalling, King Dedede's infinite, Meta Knight) and allowing a very large number of stages regardless of how "gay" they are. The culture has moved against that position somewhat, but I don't really see any evidence that it's the fault of the brawl community in general or that that position was ever the widely accepted norm. I'd be a huge supporter of any movement that wanted to end the various movements to ban anything with a retooling of our ruleset priorities to "ban as absolutely little as possible". I don't think the holdovers from the melee community or the new brawl people are really ready to actually support that though; that problem seems to come from both sides.
 
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