The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

how about add another parameter to the rules such as if they grab the edge 70 times AND the match went into sudden death since isnt the point of planking to make the time run out and have a percentage advantage?

that sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[Espy Rose]

that sounds like a good idea to me.

I thought the 70 max ledge grabs rule already only applied tp matches that timed out?

 

[GwJ]

I just want to point something out real quick. I'm not sure if this has been stated, but you would need to grab on an average of 6.86 seconds in an 8 minute match, correct? Well what about with characters that can grab multiple times in a few seconds. DK can do this, Link/TL can do this, Space Animals can do this, the list goes on. This rule is broken and should not be legal.

 

[OverLade]

I just want to point something out real quick. I'm not sure if this has been stated, but you would need to grab on an average of 6.86 seconds in an 8 minute match, correct? Well what about with characters that can grab multiple times in a few seconds. DK can do this, Link/TL can do this, Space Animals can do this, the list goes on. This rule is broken and should not be legal.

Multiple times in a few seconds? Does ANYONE grab the ledge even every 10 seconds? No, nobody. Nobody grabs the edge even 3 times every 10 seconds...of course, unless they're planking.

Even if Link and Samus wont be grabbing the edge that much, use common sense. Find me a match where someone goes over 70 ledgegrabs and isn't planking. People need to think before saying something. >_>

 

[AlphaZealot]

I just won a tournament last weekend and I checked the edge grabs after most of my games, the highest I had the whole tournament was 17, the average was around 6 or 7.

Quivo, who is the best TL in the MW, also only has about an average of 10 edge grabs in a game.

You can only get to 70, heck, 40-50, if you are using the edge to stall at some point in the match.

 

[GwJ]

Multiple times in a few seconds? Does ANYONE grab the ledge even every 10 seconds? No, nobody. Nobody grabs the edge even 3 times every 10 seconds...of course, unless they're planking.

Even if Link and Samus wont be grabbing the edge that much, use common sense. Find me a match where someone goes over 70 ledgegrabs and isn't planking. People need to think before saying something. >_>

It's quite possible. Edge-stalling is a viable tactic to use. I use ROB and see a lot of Edge-stalling used against me to prevent camping.

Scenerio

I play Falco/ROB and my opponent plays Bowser on FD. I'm camping the hell out of him so he hangs out on the ledge until I decide to approach. D'OH! He just lost the match because he was protecting himself.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Umm...

Not really,

1) Why would he grab the edge 50, let alone 70 times, if you have no real way to even hit him.

2) Once you get off the edge he will get off of his.

Once again, actually go in and CHECK the edge grabs, it will be much less than you actually think you grab.

 

[Ryan-K]

Multiple times in a few seconds? Does ANYONE grab the ledge even every 10 seconds? No, nobody. Nobody grabs the edge even 3 times every 10 seconds...of course, unless they're planking.

Are you dumb or something?

I guess you never heard of just regrabbing the edge a few times in a row to wait for an opening.

How the hell is that "planking"? If I am marth or something on the edge against snake, just because i don't wanna get ***** immediately means I'm gonna stall the whole match now?

Edit: I mean in the short term obviously but of course you are free to misinterpret this and assume I am talking about the whole match. Because grabbing and regrabbing the edge 4 times in a row to not get my **** ruined obviously means I am going to stay on the edge for 70 ledgegrabs, right RedHalberd?

 

[AlphaZealot]

You will regrab the edge multiple times only a few times in a match. If you do it constantly it is something you will have to curb if the edge grab rule is in play.

However, I would still doubt if you do that a lot that you will even get to 50 edge grabs. Please provide a video in which someone who wasn't planking used this technique and got 50, 60, or 70 edge grabs.

Good luck.

 

[teh_spamerer]

However, I would still doubt if you do that a lot that you will even get to 50 edge grabs. Please provide a video in which someone who wasn't planking used this technique and got 50, 60, or 70 edge grabs.

I'm not entirely sure how much we did it and Chibo didn't upload the video yet, but in the third match with Dojo we were both forced to regrab the ledge a LOT. In Meta dittos it's really hard to get off the ledge since his fsmash outranges his aeriels and if he times it right it beats everything.

 

[Ryan-K]

You will regrab the edge multiple times only a few times in a match. If you do it constantly it is something you will have to curb if the edge grab rule is in play.

However, I would still doubt if you do that a lot that you will even get to 50 edge grabs. Please provide a video in which someone who wasn't planking used this technique and got 50, 60, or 70 edge grabs.

Good luck.

I don't know if this was directed at me or not but I wasn't talking about that.

50 edgegrabs is a whole lot, I would consider the normal about 15-20 when you consider the fact that sometimes getting off the edge immediately alot of the time is just unsafe.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Spam: Rolling??? Jumping high above the stage and up-bing to the center? Jumping then tornadoing? There are ways to simply avoid getting caught on the edge and regrabbing multiple times. Regardless, it is something people will have to learn to deal with in this rule, where as you have to learn to deal with the timer running out when the timer is implemented to rule sets.

Superryan: Your "normal" grab game statistic is probably between 5-10 edge grabs, not 15-20. Just start checking after your games, you will be surprised. This will be true for probably 98% of tournament attendees as well.

 

[OverLade]

Are you dumb or something?

I guess you never heard of just regrabbing the edge a few times in a row to wait for an opening.

How the hell is that "planking"? If I am marth or something on the edge against snake, just because i don't wanna get ***** immediately means I'm gonna stall the whole match now?

Edit: I mean in the short term obviously but of course you are free to misinterpret this and assume I am talking about the whole match. Because grabbing and regrabbing the edge 4 times in a row to not get my **** ruined obviously means I am going to stay on the edge for 70 ledgegrabs, right RedHalberd?

Seeing as how you started off your post with "are you dumb or something", I can already assume you're an idiot. I never said anything about "regrabbing the ledge is planking". This rule does NOTHING against regrabbing the ledge a few times.

I said "Every" ten seconds. Of course there will be times when you regrab the ledge a couple times during 10 second spans.

Lets do a lil math, K.

Matches on average last 4 minutes. Most people grab the edge only about 4 times per stock, though most people actually grab the edge less. Even 8 times per stock lets say, that's only 24 ledge grabs.

A generally shouldn't even last 7 minutes UNLESS you're planking so the logic behind the possibility of 70 ledgegrabs isn't even possible. I don't care what you're saying on paper, go play some **** matches and see what happens.

 

[pockyD]

Most people grab the edge only about 4 times per stock, though most people actually grab the edge less.

that was a confusing sentence

 

[OverLade]

that was a confusing sentence

XD lol That didn't come out right. You get the idea.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Yes, and I would say most people only grab the edge maybe 2-3 times a stock.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Rolling???

The smart thing to do is space the forward smash so a ledgehopped fair would miss and your fsmash would connect. There is no lag on the fsmash so as soon as you see them try to get up you let it go. If they do the normal get up they get hit or you mistimed it and they shield it and they're forced back to the ledge. If they rolled you have time to hit them out. Rolling is generally also an awful strategy from the ledge with any character since you're invincible for what seems like 40-50% of the roll.

Jumping high above the stage and up-bing to the center?

1) It was on Battlefield
2) Being high up with Meta Knight sucks against a lot of characters including Meta
3) Ledgejump can be hit if you time the fsmash properly

That leaves drop down then spam jumped and force yourself to be above him and then up b to the top platform?

Jumping then tornadoing?

All of Meta's aeriels beat tornado. Fsmash beats tornado. Up b beats tornado.

There are ways to simply avoid getting caught on the edge and regrabbing multiple times.

Yeah but you're eventually going to be hit off the stage and be forced to go to the ledge. Once on the ledge, you are forced to regrab it multiple times until you see them positioned incorrectly, they are timing it incorrectly, they get bored and run back, or the timer is running out and you're losing.

 

[Eaode]

Edit: ignore unnecessary post, just procrastinating on my HW is all.

 

[Deadweight]

/Approves of this thread and rule

 

[SmashBro99]

This is genius.

 

[Pleather]

Yes, and I would say most people only grab the edge maybe 2-3 times a stock.

I think that's a little bit of an understatement.

Well.... upon looking at a few CoT4 vids, I kinda stand by that. I think it really depends on characters and stages, quite a lot. However, I still don't think the average would be that low, granted it probably wouldn't be over 15ish max. This first video, Ally (Snake) vs Chu Dat (Kirby), I was surprised upon watching. I believe Chu only grabbed the ledge 2-3 times in his first life, and Ally might have not grabbed the ledge even once in his first stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50AMsJzkhy0

Of course, it is Delfino plaza, where a third of the time, there really are no ledges. Compared to the next stage, battlefield.... Anther vs Spammer, an MK v Pika match. D:. Now that's obviously going to have a bit more grabs per stock, on average. I'm pretty sure I counted eight in pika's first stock. By the way, that was some sick playing on pika's part, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing MK get his *** kicked by a low tier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg7h0ZIluLs

Then again, it's MK... and pika.... but that only proves my point, that the average is probably a bit more than 2-3 times per stock for most players. Then again, I originally thought it would be much higher, like you said earlier in this thread. Anyways, I think it's still largely character and stage dependent, like many people said, stages like Brinstar, characters like R.O.B., they all can make the edge grabs vary quite a lot. Snap, I probably didn't need to make such a long post about such a simple concept.... =/. Especially considering it doesn't even directly relate to the thread's topic. >.V

 

[Throwback]

Honestly cbf reading all this, but in the first 14 pages no-one mentions Samus. I expect I can easily hit 70 ledge-grabs with Samus while still legitimately playing to win.

Apart from the fact that planking is nowhere near broken, ofc.

 

[M@v]

Umm...

Not really,

1) Why would he grab the edge 50, let alone 70 times, if you have no real way to even hit him.

2) Once you get off the edge he will get off of his.

Once again, actually go in and CHECK the edge grabs, it will be much less than you actually think you grab.

This. People think they grab the ledge more than they actually do. If you grab the ledge 70 times, one of two things are happening:

1.Your playing gayer than Plank
2. Your gettng absolutely annihilated.

 

[OverLade]

Honestly cbf reading all this, but in the first 14 pages no-one mentions Samus. I expect I can easily hit 70 ledge-grabs with Samus while still legitimately playing to win.

Apart from the fact that planking is nowhere near broken, ofc.

I've mentioned samus like 5 times, mabye you DIDNT' ACTUALLY read.

And based on the bolded statement, I bet you DIDNT ACTUALLY read. How about you go back and read so you can catch up and be on the samus page as the rest of us.

Oh, and start working on that video cuz I'd love to see you do that.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I think that's a little bit of an understatement.

.

Compared to the next stage, battlefield.... Anther vs Spammer, an MK v Pika match. D:. Now that's obviously going to have a bit more grabs per stock, on average. I'm pretty sure I counted eight in pika's first stock. By the way, that was some sick playing on pika's part, I thoroughly enjoyed seeing MK get his *** kicked by a low tier.

Pikachu is 12th best...definitely not low tier.

Honestly cbf reading all this, but in the first 14 pages no-one mentions Samus. I expect I can easily hit 70 ledge-grabs with Samus while still legitimately playing to win.

Apart from the fact that planking is nowhere near broken, ofc.

I think the next time i am with seibrik i am going to play DDD vs Samus and see how many ledgegrabs, and post it on youtube so people can stfu about tether recoveries. Any thoughts?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Can we at least come together on agreeing that applying such a rule in situations other than time over is dumb? If you have a rule to handle the situation when the timer runs out, there's no reason to ever lose to ledge stalling since you can just stay away from the ledge. On the other hand, you can grab the ledge with wild abandon so long as you finish the match before the timer runs out which makes the rule far less intrusive and removes any concerns about "aggressive" use of repeated ledgegrabs. I posted it a while back worded up in terms of what would work in a rulelist (merged with the general time over rules), and while I don't personally think limits are needed here, I think if you want to pursue any rules against ledge stalling (which many tournaments will do regardless) this is the best path. If it gets people to stop complaining about Norfair, it might even be overall good.

In the case that the timer runs out, the match will come down to tiebreakers. The first tiebreaker will be the number of ledgegrabs; if either player has over 70 ledgegrabs shown in the stats screen, the player with the lower number of ledgegrabs wins. The second tiebreaker will be stock count; the player with more stock remaining if there is a difference wins. The third tiebreaker is percentage at the end of the match; the player with a lower percentage wins. The final tiebreaker is the result shown on the result screen; this will probably be awarded to the player who won the sudden death.

In the case of teams, both players will have their numbers added together with eliminated players at the end being considered to have 0 stock and 0% damage. For ledgegrabs, if either team has a total of over 141 ledgegrabs, the team with a smaller number of total ledegrabs wins. For the second tiebreaker, the team with more total stock remaining wins. The third tiebreaker will be that the team with the lower combined percentage wins. The final tiebreaker is again the result shown on the character select screen.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You are wrong, the last tiebreaker is % taken. The person who took less damage wins if it is same stock, both have -70 ledgegrabs, and same % at the end.
If that is the same, they play another 1 stock match same characters same stage and whoever wins that wins that match.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That's not "wrong". There's actually no generally agreed upon standard if the percentages are the same, and in principle any rule that causes more games to be played in a set than scheduled is a bad rule (1 stock games can take 3-4 minutes if both players camp and ledgestall which could put the tournament off schedule, extra likely if the players ran the timer out once already). Using the sudden death result (or random result in the fantastic case of a tie in sudden death) is the best solution to deal with this very exotic case since Sudden Death at least guarantees that it will end fairly quickly.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

That's true, i just thought that tournament standards for that down in FL were the same as most other places, i apologize.

 

[OverLade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I24bP2akQVc&feature=channel_page

Someone tally up the ledgegrabs per stock in this match.

I dont feel like it.

 

[RedPeppers]

I came up with around 60 for MK. My count is probably off, but I know it's not off by 10.

 

[Morrigan]

I came up with around 60 for MK. My count is probably off, but I know it's not off by 10.

What do you mean "your count"? Were you actually counting everytime you grabed the edge? =P

 

[RedPeppers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I24bP2akQVc&feature=channel_page

Someone tally up the ledgegrabs per stock in this match.

I dont feel like it.

I was responding to this ^ Lol.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm using this rule at at local tournament I'm holding this weekend, I have it reading as follows:

•If time runs out the winner will be determined by the following
1. If one player has over 60 edge grabs (edge grabs are recorded automatically in post-game statistics) that player loses by DQ. If both players have more than 60 edge grabs then go to number 2.
2. The player with the highest stock wins. If stocks are tied then the player with the lowest percentage wins. If both stock and percent are tied go to number 3.
3. Play a 1 stock overtime game that will be played on the same stage with the same characters with a 2 minute timer. 20 edge grab limit.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

I'm using this rule at at local tournament I'm holding this weekend, I have it reading as follows:

•If time runs out the winner will be determined by the following
1. If one player has over 60 edge grabs (edge grabs are recorded automatically in post-game statistics) that player loses by DQ. If both players have more than 60 edge grabs then go to number 2.
2. The player with the highest stock wins. If stocks are tied then the player with the lowest percentage wins. If both stock and percent are tied go to number 3.
3. Play a 1 stock overtime game that will be played on the same stage with the same characters with a 2 minute timer. 20 edge grab limit.

out of curiosity, why do you, as a TO, want to have this rule enacted?

 

[AlphaZealot]

C/P directly from the OP of my tournament thread:

Explaining the edge grab rule: I'm testing this rule out to see if it will ever even come into play. I request that everyone try and keep track of your edge grabs in the tournament so this number can be adjusted up or down for future events. In all the testing I have done (by testing I simply mean playing like I normally do) I've never even exceeded 20 edge grabs in a game and I think my average is about 7. Most (actually all) of you will have similar averages. This is to discourage planking and excessive use of edge play. Yes, it is an arbitrary rule. I am aware planking/edge camping is not broken. This rule needs testing though, and I also think it may have some positive benefits. Essentially, don't play with fire (using the edge and **** ton) and you won't get burned. The game keeps track of your edge grabs automatically and displays it at the end of the game in the statistics.

 

[Veng]

Its stupid enough to ban ledge stalling because your opponent doesn't wanna come get you.

But I would probably WILL quit Brawl if they put a limit on how many times I can grab the ledge. Its part of the game.

Actually I would probably buy Halo or some other game that doesn't have so many rules that the game is fabricated into a what can i and cant do.

 

[Flayl]

Its stupid enough to ban ledge stalling because your opponent doesn't wanna come get you.

But I would probably WILL quit Brawl if they put a limit on how many times I can grab the ledge. Its part of the game.

Actually I would probably buy Halo or some other game that doesn't have so many rules that the game is fabricated into a what can i and cant do.

What exactly were you expecting when you bought a poorly designed game you baby?

 

[AlphaZealot]

You really do not know anything about Halo rules then. Their rule list, with all the fine points, is probably 4-5 times as long as any Smash list. Almost every level has areas you can reach via things like jumping on your partners head. These types of spots though are "banned" in MLG. Then you can have your equivalent to items vs no-items smash: BR starts is what MLG uses, AR starts (or god in H2 SMG starts) is what most casual games have. Then you have specific game types with specific settings that have to be played in a specific order at very specific times in the tournament.

Hey, do you want to use the sword in competitive Halo 3 (aka MLG)? You can't. Want to use the shotgun? You can't. Want to use the Sparten laser? You can't. Heck, some maps have JUST the battle rifle.

So, go ahead and complain about an arbitrary limit on grabbing the edge that no tournament you will ever attend in Washington will use and say it will make you quit the game. Thats fine. But, if you want to go Halo because they have less rules...well thats just you being misinformed. Most games played in competitions at this point have tons of rules. The exceptions to this are basically the traditional fighting games. Oh well. GoW? Tons of rules. WoW? tons of rules. Madden? a decent amount of rules (IIRC). Halo? Tons of rules. Counter Strike? Tons of rules. Team Fortress? Tons of rules. The list goes on.

The only place you won't find many "rules" is probably EVO, and even they have some imposed rules. However, EVO tries to use a "play out of the box" mentality, so they try to stick with rules that are the default of whatever the game they use is (so they would have items on in Smash and AR starts in Halo).

Smash under the EVO mentality is basically AllBrawl-that means all items and all stages. I'd bet you would love that.

 

[Veng]

Okay Zealot I obviously was wrong and didn't respond appropriately.... but


is it just me or does it seem dumb to have to put a limit on the amount of times you can grab a ledge? whats next a limit on how many times you can fair in a game?