The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[DippnDots]

Look at most of the thread, he summed up what a lot of people seem to completely disregard.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

What if your ROB and popping up from the ledge to shoot a gyro or laser and retreating back to the safety of the ledge because its too dangerous to stay onstage (in certain matchups). All you are really doing is ledge camping and forcing your enemy to approach but you are still attacking at the same time so is that really planking? I dont think that type of playstyle should be punished so harshly because if you camp enough reaching 70 ledge grabs is possible.

 

[AlphaZealot]

ROB will not reach 70 under such conditions. Actually TRY you method and record how many edge grabs ROB gets. I would bet it is less than 30, 40 at the most.

 

[Irow]

Did no one read my post?

According to a Japanese player (Michael Hey), the rule only applies when the clock is ran out.

Also keep in mind that they play with a 10:00 minute time limit.

 

[Harbinger631]

Hmm, if a "grab edge 50 times and you lose" rule is implemented, there really isn't any need for a match timer, is there?

 

[pockyD]

Hmm, if a "grab edge 50 times and you lose" rule is implemented, there really isn't any need for a match timer, is there?

you can't see the counter until the end of the match

and there's still a chance of matches going over time with neither player overdoing the edgecamping

 

[PraKirJaq]

So it goes:

1. Win by depleting 3 stocks of your opponent in under time limit.
2. If (1) is not accomplished, use the Japanese Ledge Grab Rule; if one person grabbed more than 70 times, he or she loses. If both players are above 70 ledge grabs, look to (3).
3. If both (1) and (2) are not accomplished, determine the winner by the number of remaining stocks.
4. If (1), (2), and (3) are not accomplished, use the % of the characters.
5. If (1), (2), (3), and (4) are not accomplished, [ do whatever you're supposed to; I assume its Sudden death, right?]

Something like that more or less. Right? >__>

 

[Flamingo]

ROFL. We see the Smashboards tag "Smash Director" for people hosting tournies.... Soon we will see the title "Ledge Grab Counter" as another. Rofl Rofl Rofl. Horrible idea, and torcherous task of someone at a tourney.

 

[pockyD]

ROFL. We see the Smashboards tag "Smash Director" for people hosting tournies.... Soon we will see the title "Ledge Grab Counter" as another. Rofl Rofl Rofl. Horrible idea, and torcherous task of someone at a tourney.

whooooooops

this degree of stupidity should really be infractable

 

[_umbra_]

The only problem I would have with the 70 grab rule is that the player might legitimately have to recover that many times. idk 70 might be enough, I would need to play a few matches and see how it goes. Eliminating planking won't completely ruin the idea of running the timer out anyway, people can probably still do that without grabbing the ledge 70 times. Basically, if a TO ever decides to put on a stage like luigi's mansion or norfair, things are going to get gay regardless.

It sucks that brawl is gay enough to require this kind of rule.

 

[OverLade]

The only problem I would have with the 70 grab rule is that the player might legitimately have to recover that many times. idk 70 might be enough, I would need to play a few matches and see how it goes. Eliminating planking won't completely ruin the idea of running the timer out anyway, people can probably still do that without grabbing the ledge 70 times. Basically, if a TO ever decides to put on a stage like luigi's mansion or norfair, things are going to get gay regardless.

It sucks that brawl is gay enough to require this kind of rule.

...........

We should make a rule where you cant enter this thread unless you read....hence this post and flamingo's.

 

[Turbo Ether]

So does the game count both Ice Climber's ledge grabs, or just the one you're controlling.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Well, you don't get off immediately after recovering. Say you grab the ledge on average two times every time you recover to wait for a good opportunity to get back on. That means you have to recover 35 times, which means you get knocked off 35 times. Using your average of 10% per knock off attack, that means you took 350% damage. Over the course of 3 stocks, that's like 117% damage each stock. That's pretty legit IMO.

The catch here isn't the percentage amount. It's the fact that you would be getting kicked off stage every six seconds or so. That means that it takes somewhere around 3.5 minutes to get to the point where you used 70 ledgegrabs to recover. At this point, you have done 0 damage or close to it, and we are assuming that you will still win this match WITHOUT camping (since we're claiming that this rule harms legitimate strategies). To do this, you have to turn the whole thing around; the OTHER player is getting kicked around by you while dealing you no damage and getting knocked off every 6 seconds. To me, that sounds HIGHLY fictitous and would probably just be an elaborate setup by two players trying to create "evidence" against this rule if it ever occured.

OR maybe the player that's ****** at the beginning, forcing you to grab the ledge 70 times SD's twice in the process, then manages to gain more percentage than you and BOTH players survive for the remaining 4 minutes without KO'ing each other.

 

[swebits98]

Use some logic. Legitimately recovering 70 times? So you were hit off the stage 70 times? Which means you took like 700% damage? It isn't going to happen.

u r forgetting that it doesn't have to be 700% in 1 stock, the match could be 3 or 4 stocks. so 700% over 3 stocks...
u also pulled 700% out of the air, just like this rule
use some logic

 

[Turbo Ether]

u r forgetting that it doesn't have to be 700% in 1 stock, the match could be 3 or 4 stocks. so 700% over 3 stocks...
u also pulled 700% out of the air, just like this rule
use some logic

WOW! What an extremely awful post, please infract this person.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Well, you don't get off immediately after recovering. Say you grab the ledge on average two times every time you recover to wait for a good opportunity to get back on. That means you have to recover 35 times, which means you get knocked off 35 times. Using your average of 10% per knock off attack, that means you took 350% damage. Over the course of 3 stocks, that's like 117% damage each stock. That's pretty legit IMO.

1) 10% per knock off is a seriously conservative estimate. Falco CG > Dair = 60% before you get hit off the stage. Diddy Kong nana lock (lets say its a 4 hitter) > dash attack > fair = 40% before you are sent off the stage. Anyways, you get the drift, at lower percentages you will probably not be sent of the stage, once you are above about 70% will you actually start to have to worry about grabbing the edge (obviously this is slightly different depending on match ups).

2) You should amend your strategy of grabbing the edge twice for each knock off under this rule. Grabbing the edge unnessasarily under this rule is akin to charging the opponent with less than 10 seconds left on the timer when you have a 15% lead. Just as you amend your gameplay to deal with a timer, so to must you amend your gameplay to deal with the edge grab limit.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I am aware of all this. I merely continued the thought experiment to see if it's at ALL possible. Even if you're VERY generous with ledge grabs, as it turns out, this rule will never interfere with "legitimate" strategies.

Of course I didn't mean unnecessarily regrabbing the ledge. If my opponent isn't near me or isn't pressuring me, of course I'll get up right away. My point is that often you're not at such a leisure, and the times where you are only make up for the time where you might be forced to regrab 3 times or more to wait for a sufficient opportunity.

Again, all this doesn't matter because if it's a problem, you minorly adjust your strategies and it all works out.

 

[eet]

Just use the rule in a few tourneys and see if it works. If it doesn't, then just revise it or simply toss it aside. It won't make much difference at all really. It's that easy.

 

[thumbswayup]

whooooooops

this degree of stupidity should really be infractable

For once we agree.

 

[M@v]

ROFL. We see the Smashboards tag "Smash Director" for people hosting tournies.... Soon we will see the title "Ledge Grab Counter" as another. Rofl Rofl Rofl. Horrible idea, and torcherous task of someone at a tourney.

I give up. What am I supposed to do? I made the phrase saying THERE IS AN AUTO LEDGE COUNTER on the results screen really big and in bright red. Are people blind? They can't be because they are somehow posting >_>.

 

[slikvik]

I guess I'm gonna need to start excessively planking at tournies just to make a point. This rule should be implemented, and it needs to be a smaller number like 50

 

[Turbo Ether]

I give up. What am I supposed to do? I made the phrase saying THERE IS AN AUTO LEDGE COUNTER on the results screen really big and in bright red. Are people blind? They can't be because they are somehow posting >_>.

The extraordinary amount of ignorant, loudmouthed people on the internet often don't bother to fully read something before hastily giving their uneducated opinion. People failing to comprehend a clear statement, posted in gigantic, red letters is absolutely pathetic.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I give up. What am I supposed to do? I made the phrase saying THERE IS AN AUTO LEDGE COUNTER on the results screen really big and in bright red. Are people blind? They can't be because they are somehow posting >_>.

It's easier to argue when you ignore the facts, of course.

 

[Morrigan]

The thing is how do u know if he was stalling or not just because he grabbed 70 times. What if was forced to grab the ledge 70 times it is completely possible and debatable. I dont think there's a fixed number on how much ledge grabs one does during a match. I say just limit ledge grabs to 5 or so and he cant grab the ledge for stalling again for a minute or so. We actually have a rule like this here in PR. It works.

Because you (and people watching, perhaps) should be able TELL if the ledge was grabbed for stalling/planking purposes or not. I mean seriously, can't you see the difference between someone actually grabbing the ledge because you threw him away (like a gazillion times, yeah, that's stupid) and this: Some Plank Match?

 

[AlphaZealot]

And it doesn't even MATTER if they were planking or not. The rule is simple. Don't grab the edge x amount of times. If you get there somehow then you lost.

Again, just as you have to adjust your strategy to deal with the addition of the timer, you will have to adjust your strategy to deal with the addition of edge-grab caps.

 

[OverLade]

And it doesn't even MATTER if they were planking or not. The rule is simple. Don't grab the edge x amount of times. If you get there somehow then you lost.

Again, just as you have to adjust your strategy to deal with the addition of the timer, you will have to adjust your strategy to deal with the addition of edge-grab caps.

QFT.

That's all that needs to be said.

 

[MattDotZeb]

What is more BS?
1-A rule that can't be easily enforced that is supposed to prevent planking completely
or
2-A rule that can be easily enforced that can hinder or even prevent completely planking (if the number is adjusted from 70 to 40 or 50 or whatever works best)?

Rule number 1 is ALREADY USED AT EAST COAST TOURNAMENTS which means arguing about "OMG PLANKING ISN'T BROKEN" is pointless since East Coast TO's already don't care if it is broken or not, they ban it anyways. This at least allows the TO's to have an easily enforceable rule.

It's a terrible rule.

Watch, Planking will be allowed in the later days of Brawl

 

[cman]

It's a terrible rule.

Watch, Planking will be allowed in the later days of Brawl

That is NOT what this rule is about. It ONLY intends to replace a worse rule if the TO already decided to implement it. If you want to argue the legality of planking, this is NOT the right thread.

 

[Jesusdragon737]

Hmm... This seems to be a relatively good idea. You can be very cheap by ledge camping. I'm going to have to check at the end of some of my matches to see, on average, how much I grab the ledge. 70 seems a bit low, though. :/

You should have made your first post more specific. I'm assuming that this rule only applies for 3 stock, 8 minute games (most legit tourneys are this way). Longer games or games with higher stock would have to have different limits.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I don't know whether this was mentioned, but a smasher from Norcal, Michael Hey, is the one who made this Japanese rule known to the Norcal smash scene. Now, the Japanese also use a 10 minute timer, so that's 70 grabs in 10 minutes, meaning the equivalent in a 7 minute game about 50 grabs. We did some tests where one of us would play MK, and ONLY use ledge camping when up in % as a strategy. I think the most we ever got up to was about 62 which was when I played Zelda and did nothing but attempt to Din's Fire him off the edge or somehow force him onto the stage for the majority of the match. That's 62 grabs where the strategy was explicitly ledgecamping for nearly 7 minutes. If that is an accurate assumption, then a 50 regrab rule is the equivalent to banning ledgecamping for about 5:30 of a 7 minute set, i.e. ~80% of the match.

So far we haven't had a tourney in Norcal use it explicitly that I know of, but that's probably a function of the lack of planking in Norcal, so there haven't been enough complaints to warrant a TO implementing it.

 

[OverLade]

That is NOT what this rule is about. It ONLY intends to replace a worse rule if the TO already decided to implement it. If you want to argue the legality of planking, this is NOT the right thread.

It's a terrible rule.

Watch, Planking will be allowed in the later days of Brawl

This is probably the dumbest reply there's been in this thread. >_>

@HyugaRicdeau that's interesting, nobody's posted that yet.

 

[pockyD]

The problem is, once something is universally banned, it is next to impossible to reverse that ban

 

[MattDotZeb]

It wont be universally banned, this is like that whole wobbling BS and m2k whining about people ledge hopping except in a larger scale.


"He's camping and ledge hoping, what a jerk! It's not like I can do the exact same thing on the other side of the stage until something happens. I WANT MY MOMMY" - Almost every Brawler ever.

 

[pockyD]

It wont be universally banned, this is like that whole wobbling BS and m2k whining about people ledge hopping except in a larger scale.

Watch, Planking will be allowed in the later days of Brawl

well, if you simply meant that it will be allowed later because it will be allowed now, then I misunderstood you. sorry.

 

[Pierce7d]

It wont be universally banned, this is like that whole wobbling BS and m2k whining about people ledge hopping except in a larger scale.


"He's camping and ledge hoping, what a jerk! It's not like I can do the exact same thing on the other side of the stage until something happens. I WANT MY MOMMY" - Almost every Brawler ever.

Well, except that if he's up in percentages, then the timer destroys this strategy. And if you read my post, the timer wasn't implemented to provide advantages.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Well, except that if he's up in percentages, then the timer destroys this strategy. And if you read my post, the timer wasn't implemented to provide advantages.

So find a way to get around it, grab the ledge before their regrab and rack up damage.

 

[Pierce7d]

So find a way to get around it, grab the ledge before their regrab and rack up damage.

If MK grabs the edge, then proceeds to use his extremely fast and well ranged, disjointed Uair, you cannot ever reach the edge before MK. I believe MK's Uair outranges Marth's Dair, and certainly outspeeds it. Even if you get lucky and GUESS a mix-up, holding the edge vs. MK (or Pit for this matter) doesn't mean much. He retreats out of your range, and then uses his high priority Drill Rush which you probably cannot beat with an aerial to regrab the ledge. Meanwhile, Shuttle Loop can gimp you in a second.

Your opponent is not suppose to have the advantage of forcing you to LEAVE the stage to fight them, especially when they have a vastly superior air game to the rest of the cast. It greatly disrupts the risk vs. reward factors of the game, and unbalances competative play. Have you ever been Planked before?

Seriously, for all of you people that say "Find a way around it." if you think it's that simple, please, outline a detailed post with a reliable way around it that we're all apparently overlooking.

And LOL at "rack up damage". Even if you grab the ledge AND hit MK, you're not going to score more than 1 hit, rofl. Additionally, it's going to be an aerial. EVEN if that gives you a percent advantage, MK only has to regain the percent advantage to begin using this strategy again, and whatever you did to hit him the first time probably won't work again, because he'll be wary of your strategy, and he will have better options than you, rofl.

Let me spell this out for you with an example.

You're playing a game where the objective is to reduce your opponent's health to 0. However, your opponent is using a character who gains a forcefield power-up any time their health is greater than yours. Hitting them now becomes 10 times more difficult, even though they already had at least a slight lead. If you attempt to hit them, it greatly increases their ability to hit you, furthering their lead. If you do nothing, the timer will end, and your opponent will win by default.

Sorry, doesn't sound very fun to me.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I love when pierc-seven-d talks, he says what i want to say in a way that everybody can understand.

 

[pockyD]

no, it doesn't

but it does sound like their character is much better than yours

 

[MattDotZeb]

So why do you play this terrible game competitively? Its fun casually and nothing more. Put down your controller, unplug your wii, plug in your cube, and play the better game.


I like how you pretty much only made a fuss about a MK doing this to you. There's, what, 35 other character in this game. MK isn't the only play character, good game sir.

I have been planked before, and I planked them back. Holy crap I found a way around it guys.

A decent amount of characters have projectiles too, using them helps. If you find it boring, too bad.

The only reason people want this banned is because its "boring" and "unfair."
Can you show me a tournament that was won by planking? Go ahead, show me a large tournament that was won by planking.