The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[sMexy-Blu]

Wow this thread has become a Brawl vs Melee battlefield already...

 

[Omni]

This has become a stupid thread.

A lot of good points from both ends of the conversation get swallowed by the endless, pointless, stupid comments from people who don't think things through.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

sorry, i hate when TOs create bad rules, and i dislike indirect means to enforce it. i'll just stop posting and get back to lurking.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Back to Brawl. This is not fair for characters who have tether based recoveries or crap recoveries. Many people can explot the flaws of that rule. Here's an example.

Let's say I'm Yoshi and my opponent is Olimar. We both have about 75% damage on my first stock. I can just use Down Smash to hit him away. It's too weak to kill him but it goes in a low trajectory. I can then pull out an aerial over the edge to FORCE him to grab the edge or he'll die. I can just use down smash to do this again. Yoshi's down smash is weak in Brawl, so I can make Olimar do this repeatedly if can't avoid my down smash.

Not a perfect example, but it gets my point across.

Also, what if BOTH players have exceeded the Limit?

 

[TP]

Let's say I'm Yoshi and my opponent is Olimar. We both have about 75% damage on my first stock. I can just use Down Smash to hit him away. It's too weak to kill him but it goes in a low trajectory. I can then pull out an aerial over the edge to FORCE him to grab the edge or he'll die. I can just use down smash to do this again. Yoshi's down smash is weak in Brawl, so I can make Olimar do this repeatedly if can't avoid my down smash.

If the Olimar gets hit by a smash every 6 seconds, he deserves to lose.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Actually I wonder if it is even possible to be "hit to the edge" 70 times. That means the opponent succesfully landed like...700% damage worth of attacks. ROFL.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Actually I wonder if it is even possible to be "hit to the edge" 70 times. That means the opponent succesfully landed like...700% damage worth of attacks. ROFL.

it does seem a bit out there having only 3 stock....but again..why make rules you dont need?


NO PLANKING MEANS NO PLANKING

 

[AlphaZealot]

Except we already know "NO PLANKING" isn't very enforceable. View COT4 and people complaining.

To everyone complaining about this rule and about it occurring "naturally": go and check your edgegrabs at the end of games, most of you will grab the edge less than 10 times I bet (and probably be surprised that it happens so little). Pit/ROB will probably only have 20-25 edge grabs. You REALLY have to work to grab the edge 70 times in a match.

I was surprised. Before I actually checked my stats to see edge grabs I assumed I would have around 15-20 a game. I had HALF of that.

 

[CT Chia]

so i never rly got it, but why isnt this a tourney standard rule now? 70 is such a high number as AZ said its really more of a safe just incase deal. i think il start using it

 

[AlphaZealot]

I would say most tournaments around the country don't actually ban "planking". Most tournaments on the EC do however, and on the EC I think this rule is far more enforceable and makes far more sense then saying "no planking".

The rule allows planking, but only to a degree-a degree that TO's can adjust/try to figure out what is best.

If you hold a tournament with this rule and no one reaches 70 but people still complained about planking, then lower it to 60 the next time you hold a tournament. Eventually you will fall on the right number that accounts for regular play while also (possibly completely) hindering planking.

 

[Inui]

I already see a gay loophole in this that teh_spamerer would probably abuse. You can just stand next to the edge instead of grabbing and regrabbing over and over and then just go to the edge when the person comes near you. That'll reduce the number of grabs and allow planking.

 

[pockyD]

I already see a gay loophole in this that teh_spamerer would probably abuse. You can just stand next to the edge instead of grabbing and regrabbing over and over and then just go to the edge when the person comes near you. That'll reduce the number of grabs and allow planking.

...then your opponent can "force" you to the edge by coming near you

er, you really think standing near the edge is 'broken' too?

 

[Inui]

You'd only have the fight for about a minute total in the match in order to get past this rule. You can just run away for the rest and grab the edge ~60 times in order to run the clock on someone easily. What I said can easily happen, and I know for a fact that teh_spamerer would do it.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Before I say anything else can someone (preferably someone who knows what their talking about) explain to me EXACTLY what planking is.

 

[pockyD]

You'd only have the fight for about a minute total in the match in order to get past this rule. You can just run away for the rest and grab the edge ~60 times in order to run the clock on someone easily. What I said can easily happen, and I know for a fact that teh_spamerer would do it.

There's no way (or reason) to ban "running away". Of COURSE there are "other" ways to try and run the clock, but this rule is specifically targeted at edge-stalling. Do you think it addresses that "problem" or not?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Inui: your loop holes aren't really loopholes.

1) Standing next to the edge? That means you are vulnerable to tons of stuff (projectiles namely) and you are therefor NOT planking. However if all you plan to do is stay near the edge just to grab onto it, then the opponent can just approach you to eat up your edge grabs. Also if standing next to the edge and then dropping, and then getting up from the edge, and repeating, is somehow the new definition of planking then I missed the memo.

2) Of course 70 will allow planking to occur! The number can be ADJUSTED though so we can find what the ideal number of edge grabs are that STOP planking but don't unnecessarily inhibit any other play styles. Honestly, 50 is probably just as good a number as 70 is, but for the sake of testing it is better to start high and lower it instead of the opposite. 50 would also inhibit planking even more than 70, obviously.

Planking is just grabbing the edge (usually with MK), dropping beneith the edge, jumping, performing an air attack, and then regrabbing the edge. There are other variants (like using your up-B) but the general rule is simply continually regrabbing the edge.

 

[Inui]

It stops excessive ledgestalling, but not the actual problem of planking/camping too much. Excessive ledgestalling is very easy to catch with just the "no planking" rule already.

 

[teh_spamerer]

It stops excessive ledgestalling, but not the actual problem of planking/camping too much. Excessive ledgestalling is very easy to catch with just the "no planking" rule already.

LOL

There is no way to make a rule that says you have to approach without it being completely moronic.

Oh wait, sharking for more than 10 seconds at an Inui tournament will result in you being DQ'd...

EDIT: Why planking shouldn't be banned: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6670286&postcount=291

 

[pockyD]

It stops excessive ledgestalling, but not the actual problem of planking/camping too much.

For most people, "Planking" and "Excessive ledgestalling" are the exact same thing, so if it stops one, it stops the other

Excessive ledgestalling is very easy to catch with just the "no planking" rule already.

...but this requires the T.O. to watch every match, plus make a subjective decision in each case... and as far as I know, has NEVER been enforced (nobody has been DQ'd by it), largely due to these ambiguities

If you agree that this stops "excessive ledgestalling" without treading on what you perceive to be more "legitimate" tactics (which you haven't said yet, so I don't know if you agree with), then it is pretty much strictly better than the "Stalling: No stalling allowed." rule, if only because it takes the human element out of the picture

 

[MattDotZeb]

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooow there's actually a chance of this bull**** being put into the rules?

 

[AlphaZealot]

What is more BS?
1-A rule that can't be easily enforced that is supposed to prevent planking completely
or
2-A rule that can be easily enforced that can hinder or even prevent completely planking (if the number is adjusted from 70 to 40 or 50 or whatever works best)?

Rule number 1 is ALREADY USED AT EAST COAST TOURNAMENTS which means arguing about "OMG PLANKING ISN'T BROKEN" is pointless since East Coast TO's already don't care if it is broken or not, they ban it anyways. This at least allows the TO's to have an easily enforceable rule.

 

[Pierce7d]

Hmm, I'm Marth. I don't plank, but I can deal with it, so . . . yeah.

Hell, even Fox can deal with Planking. His running speed is stupidly good.

Falco and Wolf are the only characters I can think of that are royally screwed by this tactic, and due to the nature of Falco's gameplay, I don't care ROFL. I've really been thinking about this, and while I think planking is an annoying tactic, I've been starting to think more and more that it's not really ban-worthy. I've never been shut-down by someone employing this against me, and it's relatively simple for even noobs to do. I've also been punished for doing it against skilled players (experimentally).

Of course, I still agree with using this rule for tourneys that have a no planking rule.

 

[ShinTwist ScreamPaste]

Thsi doesn't work, what about tether characters like Link and Samus qwho can Zair edgaurd or use the invincibility frames to not get stage spiked? This is really unfair to them.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Once again, you are not going to use those move SEVENTY times in a match. Yet, your tether characters would probably not use their edge grab thirty times in a match.

 

[pockyD]

Thsi doesn't work, what about tether characters like Link and Samus qwho can Zair edgaurd or use the invincibility frames to not get stage spiked? This is really unfair to them.

Why is it any more "unfair" to them than any other character?

Just because they have two ways to grab the edge rather than one doesn't change the reason that they are grabbing the edge to begin with.

The only "real" concern along these lines would be true tether characters like olimar and ivysaur who are "forced" to grab the edge in recovery... and this just becomes part of their natural disadvantage... plus, people still aren't understanding how high 70 really is

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah, to repeat what i said earlier, my brother (ZSS) and I (Pikachu) played a match on NORFAIR (the level where the most planking occurs due to the 3 ledges on each side. The final ledge grabs were 22 (my brother) and 17 (me) and the match had like 2 minutes left. 70 is A ****LOAD. Don't complain, because in reality, nobody should grab the ledge more than 30 times unless they are purposely ledgecamping to run out the clock.

 

[indianunit]

i think that the number should be reduced since it seems to be a bit too much. maybe something like 50 or even 30 sounds better.

 

[choknater]

Before I say anything else can someone (preferably someone who knows what their talking about) explain to me EXACTLY what planking is.

Plank/Plairnkk/Raftbuilder used a ledge camping strategy at the Axis Gaming tournament in the West Coast. He beat SK92 using this simple strategy and a bunch of people thought it was cheap, gay, etc. He placed 3rd at the tournament and since then people called it planking (though he was probably already ledgecamping long before Axis.)

 

[Plairnkk]

Plank/Plairnkk/Raftbuilder used a ledge camping strategy at the Axis Gaming tournament in the West Coast. He beat SK92 using this simple strategy and a bunch of people thought it was cheap, gay, etc. He placed 3rd at the tournament and since then people called it planking (though he was probably already ledgecamping long before Axis.)

the axis set vs sk92 was the 2nd set i ever edgecamped with mk in. and ive never done it since :D (mainly cuz people know not to go falco vs me... lol)

 

[teh_spamerer]

Plank/Plairnkk/Raftbuilder used a ledge camping strategy at the Axis Gaming tournament in the West Coast. He beat SK92 using this simple strategy and a bunch of people thought it was cheap, gay, etc. He placed 3rd at the tournament and since then people called it planking (though he was probably already ledgecamping long before Axis.)

Pretty sure it was called planking before Axis

oovideogamegodoo: i made up a new term yesterday
oovideogamegodoo: i told eggm and cactuar
oovideogamegodoo: when you ledge camp
oovideogamegodoo: its called planking
RedAxelRanger: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
RedAxelRanger: AHAHAHAHAAAH
oovideogamegodoo: so we say
RedAxelRanger: THATS PERFECT
oovideogamegodoo: stop planking

^That was before IDC was discovered

 

[Pierce7d]

By the way, a lot of people seem to be forgetting the chain of events which leads us to discuss banning planking. Let me refresh.

Ordinarily, Planking is not a viable tactic. The only reason it works is because we decided to implement a time limit on matches. A match is SUPPOSED to end by one player losing all their stocks, not by time-out. But we are still left with the inevitable truth that not approaching is a safe way to retain your stocks, and we need matches to end, or some tournaments will run overtime.

Now, because of this, no stalling rule was implemented. It basically comes down to, just because there is a timer, you aren't supposed to abuse it, and you will be disqualified for doing so.

Now, Planking is a form of abusing the timer. If there were no timer, one could jump on a ledge with their lead all they want, but if they wouldn't win due to time-out (which you aren't supposed to attempt to do. The other player would have the no longer viable option of just waiting for a time to approach that didn't extremely disrupt the risk vs. reward system.

Therefore, many people think that planking should be planned. If you can't tell by now, I'm kinda up in the air with my opinion.

Now this 70 ledge grab rule is a rule to stop people from abusing a rule, to stop people from abusing a rule, to stop people from abusing the lack of a rule. LOL! Unfortunately, the alternative is having tournament running over time. We need additional rules to stop the game from interfering with the real world, which is how the underlying problem developed in the first place.

Now, just as stalling was a new strategy that came into play when the timer was added, forcing your opponent to grab the edge 70 times will derive as a strategy. Of course, I don't see it as a very viable strategy, LULZ.

You all should keep this in mind when talking about whether or not you think this is an amazing rule or a horrible one. Knowing why rules exist and understanding them is important in these discussions.

 

[xXTACXx]

I really dislike this rule.

 

[gamegeek27]

So, if I have to legitimately grab the edge more than 70 times in order to recover, all my opponent has to do is accuse me of stalling and I forfeit? Sign me up!

If you have to grab the ledge that man times in one match, you must be playing 5 stock as Bowser and have AMAZING DI.

 

[gamegeek27]

By the way, a lot of people seem to be forgetting the chain of events which leads us to discuss banning planking. Let me refresh.

Now, just as stalling was a new strategy that came into play when the timer was added, forcing your opponent to grab the edge 70 times will derive as a strategy. Of course, I don't see it as a very viable strategy, LULZ.

Isn't that what the game is all about, more strategy, more ways to play?

 

[GimR]

the axis set vs sk92 was the 2nd set i ever edgecamped with mk in. and ive never done it since :D (mainly cuz people know not to go falco vs me... lol)

MM lol,

My Flaco vs your MK, 2/3, neutrals only. I don't care if you Plank, cause I won't just walk over into your attacks, *cough* *SK92* J/K.

Also, I understand why you stalled so much at Axis. You flew cross country, you needed he money. You did whatever it took to win.

 

[DippnDots]

By the way, a lot of people seem to be forgetting the chain of events which leads us to discuss banning planking. Let me refresh.

Ordinarily, Planking is not a viable tactic. The only reason it works is because we decided to implement a time limit on matches. A match is SUPPOSED to end by one player losing all their stocks, not by time-out. But we are still left with the inevitable truth that not approaching is a safe way to retain your stocks, and we need matches to end, or some tournaments will run overtime.

Now, because of this, no stalling rule was implemented. It basically comes down to, just because there is a timer, you aren't supposed to abuse it, and you will be disqualified for doing so.

Now, Planking is a form of abusing the timer. If there were no timer, one could jump on a ledge with their lead all they want, but if they wouldn't win due to time-out (which you aren't supposed to attempt to do. The other player would have the no longer viable option of just waiting for a time to approach that didn't extremely disrupt the risk vs. reward system.

Therefore, many people think that planking should be planned. If you can't tell by now, I'm kinda up in the air with my opinion.

Now this 70 ledge grab rule is a rule to stop people from abusing a rule, to stop people from abusing a rule, to stop people from abusing the lack of a rule. LOL! Unfortunately, the alternative is having tournament running over time. We need additional rules to stop the game from interfering with the real world, which is how the underlying problem developed in the first place.

Now, just as stalling was a new strategy that came into play when the timer was added, forcing your opponent to grab the edge 70 times will derive as a strategy. Of course, I don't see it as a very viable strategy, LULZ.

You all should keep this in mind when talking about whether or not you think this is an amazing rule or a horrible one. Knowing why rules exist and understanding them is important in these discussions.

You seriously win this thread, everyone should have to read this post before posting.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah, that was an amazing post. SBR nominee anybody?

 

[Eaode]

uh didn't everyone already know that?

Sorry I'm not bedazzled by his lack of stupidity or something, but come on guys...

 

[OverLade]

uh didn't everyone already know that?

Sorry I'm not bedazzled by his lack of stupidity or something, but come on guys...

If everybody knew that we wouldn't have this thread or the problem of planking.... >_>

 

[Lethon]

Lol guys I think the real reason nobody really planked in Melee was because they were too busy having fun

This is win.

Plank is good.

That is all.