The Japanese Ledge Grab rule

[TheTantalus]

Good stuff omni

way to use logic! I wish more people did that.

 

[OverLade]

You're right.

And this is probably the reason why Brawl will never be an "MLG status", tourny-viable game. Because of the too many people with scrubby mentalities and the TO's that conform to them.

Brawl isn't a perfect game, let's face it.

If we didn't ban Sonics infinite under the stage, how stupid would this game be? The reality is that there are a lot of things in this game that 90% of the characters can't do anything to stop. Banning them makes the game less gay, which means people might actually compete at the competitive level.

If IDC wasn't banned, some ******* would learn how to do it for 7 minutes and stall the match with a percent lead.

The reality is that's part of the games programming...but you know what else? It's GAY. Its HELLA GAY. So that's why some things should be banned.

 

[Omni]

C'mon. You can't compare Sonic's infinite with ledge stalling. You can't even fight the opponent down there.

And "gay" is not good enough to make something banned. "Gay" is based on perspectives and opinions. Banning should be based on facts or something very close to it. If there's valid points on both sides of the spectrum regarding a ban, that's reason enough to not ban it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Brawl isn't a perfect game, let's face it.

If we didn't ban Sonics infinite under the stage, how stupid would this game be?

It wouldn't change, since Sonic's infinite isn't even viable to use in-game.
There's no reason for it to really be banned, either.

 

[OverLade]

It wouldn't change, since Sonic's infinite isn't even viable to use in-game.
There's no reason for it to really be banned, either.

Do you know anything about sonics infinite?

And "gay" is not good enough to make something banned. "Gay" is based on perspectives and opinions. Banning should be based on facts or something very close to it. If there's valid points on both sides of the spectrum regarding a ban, that's reason enough to not ban it.

There are valid points for not banning ANYTHING in the game.

Dont ban infinites because "the game was made that way".

Dont ban Akuma because "he was put in the game by developers and therefore the game is meant to be played with him".

 

[Plairnkk]

"Planking" is simply one of many advantages this game gives to being defensive when you have the lead. Because I'm winning, I force you to come to me by hanging on the edge. It's not impossible to get through, but it surely is "gay" because it forces you to come to me, thus putting you at a disadvantage when you're already at a disadvantage because you're losing.

However, how is this any different from Falco laser spam or Olimar pikmin throwing all match. How is it any different than Snake players pulling out grenades all the time and simply trading hits while they kill earlier with strong attacks? If a character has a great edge game, accenting that is just the same as accenting a different way of camping with any other character.

Simply because it's "annoying" shouldn't make it bannable, but because the bandwagon of scrubs have decided to make a giant deal about it, people hop right on board. I bet if I made a thread about how broken snakes grenades were, I could get tons of scrubs to impose a rule that "Snake can only throw 60 grenades per match, or else he automatically loses."

 

[OverLade]

"Planking" is simply one of many advantages this game gives to being defensive when you have the lead. Because I'm winning, I force you to come to me by hanging on the edge. It's not impossible to get through, but it surely is "gay" because it forces you to come to me, thus putting you at a disadvantage when you're already at a disadvantage because you're losing.

However, how is this any different from Falco laser spam or Olimar pikmin throwing all match. How is it any different than Snake players pulling out grenades all the time and simply trading hits while they kill earlier with strong attacks? If a character has a great edge game, accenting that is just the same as accenting a different way of camping with any other character.

Simply because it's "annoying" shouldn't make it bannable, but because the bandwagon of scrubs have decided to make a giant deal about it, people hop right on board. I bet if I made a thread about how broken snakes grenades were, I could get tons of scrubs to impose a rule that "Snake can only throw 60 grenades per match, or else he automatically loses."

It would be Plank who comes out with the "hard to refute" arguement.

BRB fresh outta arguements.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Lol Plairnkk owned us hard...

 

[OverLade]

Lol Plairnkk owned us hard...

That's why he's the best at what he does.....

 

[Genome Squirrel]

i thought i said that in post 262, guess im too blunt. its funny the disconnect between camping and ledgeCAMPING.

 

[Omni]

Yeah, me and Plank have MD/VA logic. Very hard to argue with because we're always right.

 

[Plairnkk]

I think everyone ignored you because you used Toon Link as an example. Who gives a **** about Toon Link?

 

[Genome Squirrel]

i used toon link because he was considered a much better character before people learned how overcome his spam game and i could imagine him using that much spam.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Plank: I'm not really for "no planking" rules. However, if you are going to put such a rule in your ruleset, like many TO's already do, then you might as well make it a rule that works instead of one that is a headache.

 

[OverLade]

Plank: I'm not really for "no planking" rules. However, if you are going to put such a rule in your ruleset, like many TO's already do, then you might as well make it a rule that works instead of one that is a headache.

Bam MD defeats its own logic with its own logic.

But Ledgecamping IS more broken than camping....because camping isn't broken. For some characters in some situations ledgecamping is broken...or should I say TOO GOOD.

 

[Lemonwater]

I don't mind a little bit of it, but 70 is wayyy too much for a 3 or 4 stock game. I think it's a nice rule to have.

It's REALLY FRICKEN annoying when you're using Link and the other guy is one life ahead at high %age and keeps laser spamming with Falco and edge stalling and stuff.

And since I'm usually Link, I can't afford to get tossed off the stage so I can't really do much except toss bombs and hope they explode and hit him when he doesn't have invincibility frames.

 

[Plairnkk]

Bam MD defeats its own logic with its own logic.

But Ledgecamping IS more broken than camping....because camping isn't broken. For some characters in some situations ledgecamping is broken...or should I say TOO GOOD.

Nothing is broken if it's "for some characters in some situations"

On another note, here's the original Planker. The man who taught me my ways and gave me the idea to do it (I had never Planked before this match)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6-qxyXyRXw

 

[metaXzero]

Brawl isn't a perfect game, let's face it.

If we didn't ban Sonics infinite under the stage, how stupid would this game be? The reality is that there are a lot of things in this game that 90% of the characters can't do anything to stop. Banning them makes the game less gay, which means people might actually compete at the competitive level.

If IDC wasn't banned, some ******* would learn how to do it for 7 minutes and stall the match with a percent lead.

The reality is that's part of the games programming...but you know what else? It's GAY. Its HELLA GAY. So that's why some things should be banned.

Just wanted to say IDC isn't banned for it's stalling ability (I have a proposal that deals with that). It's banned because the community feels IDC is so broken offensively/defensively that it should remain banned (even if no one has proven that).

That's all. Continue debating about Planking. ^_^

 

[Omni]

Plank: I'm not really for "no planking" rules. However, if you are going to put such a rule in your ruleset, like many TO's already do, then you might as well make it a rule that works instead of one that is a headache.

When a stupid rule is put into place and the mass majority (who 90% are usually stupid) accepts this rule without the proper procedure to come to that conclusion, what is our job? To tell everyone how stupid they are; not tell them they could be less stupid and settle with slightly stupid instead.

By conforming to the current rule set through the act of "upgrading" it, we're acknowledging the general idea of the rule to be accepting regardless if its temporary or not.

This, again. Seriously.

 

[Espy Rose]

Do you know anything about sonics infinite?

Yes I do.
Oh, and this:

It's possible that in some matchups on some legal stages Sonic can HA-stall. But more likely, your opponent can (intentionally or otherwise) cause the stalling by staying in locked range. There's no proper ruling about this, but the only possibly unfair verdict, IMO, is to disqualify the Sonic as stalling. He's trying to recover, and the opponent is stalling that recovery.

 

[metaXzero]

I think that it's the fact that the tourny results are more legit with this rule then a "no Planking" rule.

 

[pockyD]

what makes it "more legit"?

...and **** you omni for successfully sidetracking it

 

[metaXzero]

what makes it "more legit"?

...and **** you omni for successfully sidetracking it

"No Planking" requires a judge to come over. Were they right? Were they wrong? Someone can get DQed and not deserve it.

This however sets a definitive and objective rule. And it's enforceable thanks to the game.

 

[pockyD]

"No Planking" requires a judge to come over. Were they right? Were they wrong? Someone can get DQed and not deserve it.

The point is, no one EVER gets DQ'd, period. As is, the "No Planking" rule is equal to essentially "No planking in the finals".

 

[metaXzero]

The point is, no one EVER gets DQ'd, period. As is, the "No Planking" rule is equal to essentially "No planking in the finals".

Under the "no planking" rule, someone can just be ledge-camping for a bit, but they get called out as planking, and either a argument happens and/or they DQed/told to stop anyway. It's to blanket and subjective to be a serious rule and is currently working because players don't try and plank. But then, when someone DOES do something that could be Planking, the judgement and reaction vould turn really ugly.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

that's why i dislike the 70 ledgegrab rule. it's hard to tell someone who beat their opponent that they lost due to an ambiguous rule. With the 70 rule, if the player fails to manage his jumps there is concrete criteria for a loss. though i want bad rules to be impotent; rules that make winners lose should have a very strong basis.

 

[pockyD]

Under the "no planking" rule, someone can just be ledge-camping for a bit, but they get called out as planking, and either a argument happens and/or they DQed/told to stop anyway. It's to blanket and subjective to be a serious rule and is currently working because players don't try and plank. But then, when someone DOES do something that could be Planking, the judgement and reaction vould turn really ugly.

ever seen someone get DQ'd for planking?

neither have I

 

[metaXzero]

that's why i dislike the 70 ledgegrab rule. it's hard to tell someone who beat their opponent that they lost due to an ambiguous rule. With the 70 rule, if the player fails to manage his jumps there is concrete criteria for a loss. though i want bad rules to be impotent; rules that make winners lose should have a very strong basis.

70 ledgegrabs is a REALLY hard number to reach if you are not ledge stalling you know. It's been said throughout the thread why.

ever seen someone get DQ'd for planking?

neither have I

This is a horrible argument to justify "No Planking" as a legitimate rule.

 

[pockyD]

This is a horrible argument to justify "No Planking" as a legitimate rule.

Who said it was a legitimate rule?

My entire point was that it's a non-rule to begin with.

Ugh, posting on most of smashboards is so frustrating

 

[Ryan-K]

This is a horrible argument to justify "No Planking" as a legitimate rule.

This whole thread he's been arguing it's not a legitimate rule what are you smoking?

 

[Genome Squirrel]

the flaw with the 70 rule is that it doesn't really ban ledgecamping, it just limits it. smart players will still be able to work around this limitation. also, i can't imagine why once a player meets a certain number they should be forced to make predictable decisions, as if the other player isn't pressuring them and punishing mistakes in their gameplay.

 

[pockyD]

the flaw with the 70 rule is that it doesn't really ban ledgecamping, it just limits it.

...that's the goal. Even the people who are for banning "planking" recognize that it is "legit" in small spurts

 

[OverLade]

...that's the goal. Even the people who are for banning "planking" recognize that it is "legit" in small spurts

Nobody was ever complaining about ledgecamping.

Planking is using ledgecamping to win a match based on percentage for a prolonged period of the match.

 

[pockyD]

Nobody was ever complaining about ledgecamping.

we both know that's not true

Planking is using ledgecamping to win a match based on percentage for a prolonged period of the match.

says who?

one part (out of many) of why the rule fails is that there is no universal definition of planking other than "extreme edgecamping"

 

[Genome Squirrel]

...that's the goal. Even the people who are for banning "planking" recognize that it is "legit" in small spurts

i seriously facepalmed and laughed after i read that. illegitamising wins, not because something is overly powerful, but because they like to govern how others play.

 

[pockyD]

i seriously facepalmed and laughed after i read that. illegitamising wins, not because something is overly powerful, but because they like to govern how others play.

isn't that the entire motivation behind banning "planking" to begin with?

banning by count is just a 'real' way to do it as opposed to the status quo

 

[OverLade]

we both know that's not true



says who?

one part (out of many) of why the rule fails is that there is no universal definition of planking other than "extreme edgecamping"

Alright then, it doesn't matter what you define planking as. But what I just described is what should be banned. "Extreme ledgecamping" is something vague that you just made up. But if you wanted to get specific, Im sure you could define exactly what you think planking is.

If we came up with a exact definition of planking, we could ban it, but the 70 rule covers more than enough of the general gist. That's why it's a good idea.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

i hoped they were just defeatist
im not gonna call them fascist, but ... <speechless>

@redhalberd
can we add the rule that bans falco from using 70 lazers. it's too hard for bowser and ganondorf to approach, its broken.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I kept track of about 2 hours of friendlies at a smashfest I was just at. The average number of edge grabs each game was probably about 7.

 

[OverLade]

i hoped they were just defeatist
im not gonna call them fascist, but ... <speechless>

@redhalberd
can we add the rule that bans falco from using 70 lazers. it's too hard for bowser and ganondorf to approach, its broken.

Powershielding?

Bowsers UpB outta shield will **** falcos phantasm and ganon can ftilt.

Even on Final D that's not a viable arguement......