HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
Mabye we like to discuss such things.... it is a brawl discussion forum... if it entertains us.. why not let us do it? You don't have to read through these threads...
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Thats not the point, doesn't matter if I read it or not. Everyone else does and it WILL eventually carry over if people don't just let it go. anyway I hope anyone reading this will understand.Mabye we like to discuss such things.... it is a brawl discussion forum... if it entertains us.. why not let us do it? You don't have to read through these threads...
I guess i just don't see the harm in discussing such things.... everything continues operating the same as usual... maybe with just a few more disgruntled citizens...Thats not the point, doesn't matter if I read it or not. Everyone else does and it WILL eventually carry over if people don't just let it go. anyway I hope anyone reading this will understand.
so why don't you just ignore it instead?ugh, there is NO point in these threads anymore, it is no longer a debate its just members on swf trying to sound cool, my question to all of you is. WHY DON'T YOU JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, if you had, if random threads like these keep popping up the debate will keep limping along, just alive enough to be a thorn in all of our sides. Not just on the boards but at tournaments to, there are even tournaments that have both games and specifically request each side not to bicker with one another. It starts here but its spreads to the tournaments. Keeping it alive by posting things like these is no good.
I can easily do that. In terms of your analogy, the problem at hand is when said vegetarian goes into the shack, begins eating the beef, then loudly b*tches about having to eat beef to survive instead of vegetables, all the while berating the people who live in the shack for eating such inferior food and proclaiming how sh*tty the beef tastes.I'm trying to think of a good analogy....for pro player's transition to Brawl....
Ok.
If you are starving to death in the desert, nobody is around you, and you can't find any food anywhere. You find a table full of people in a ratty old shack in the middle of nowhere. They are eating BEEF, but you are a vegetarian. Unless you eat the beef, however, you will die. So you eat the beef, because you have no other food around otherwise.
Try to fit Melee and Brawl into that....
That's nice. But you know what you said? Let me quote you so that1 ) Actually, someone (and I can't for the life of me remember who right now) came into one of the earlier MvB threads and stated quite clearly that if it wasn't for flaming '08-ers/Brawlers, he wouldn't come into GBD at all. I'll try to find the post, but I'm not promising anything.
By pluralizing "member", you are stating that there are numerous people from both communities going into the opposite game's boards to flame. God forbid I interpret what you said to mean that and not as "Hey, Jack Kieser read a post from someone and he's only talking about a single person."Jack Kiesier said:Members of either game's community venture into the opposite game's boards with the sole aim of trolling or flame-baiting.
Yes it is.2 ) Reading the thread is a great thing:
Jack Kieser said:Finally, you can be responsible in part for something without being to blame for it. If a crime goes by in front of me, I am partially responsible for not stopping it personally, but am I to blame? No, because I was not the person actively committing the crime. Many Melee players are accusing Brawl of actively committing the 'crime' of killing competitive Melee, and Brawl is obviously not to blame for this.
See all this? NONE OF THIS refutes the FACT that if Brawl was never going to be made then there would be more Melee tournaments and more people playing at Melee tournaments.Jack Kieser said:Brawl players can assume SOME responsibility for the state of Melee (because they aren't playing it either), but they shouldn't, nor can they, be totally blamed for it, or even be blamed to any significant amount, because of how little effect they have in relation to Melee players.
Reading my post is a great thing. Since I'm such a nice guy, I'm going to repost a portion of my post in this one and color code responses that I made to your statements already.3 ) Nothing is wrong with trying to improve Brawl; people have been trying since January. The problem I was talking about was that people read all about Brawl in the month leading up to the American launch, and then were for some reason surprised to learn that everything they heard on the boards was true! We knew about a lack of hitstun, a lack of techs to increase aerial viability, and about no combos (or at least enough to predict the coming months, as Gimpyfish could). There was no reason for these people to be so surprised on day one because they had been reading this stuff for a month.
Did I say I was surprised on day one that I didn't know extensive combos yet? No. I'm pretty sure that not that many people were surprised. I actually happened to go to someone's apartment who imported Brawl and I played it before the game was released in America. My personal opinion when I left was that I had fun because it was a new game and that I would learn how to combo the way I comboed in Melee.me said:I am fairly certain the majority of people who purchased Brawl did so with the expectation that things would be discovered to make comboing better and for the game to be played faster.Wavedashing was not discovered within the first month of competitive Melee.No, every member of SWF did not know exactly 100% of how competitive Brawl was going to look like months after it was released when they bought it on the first day.
See this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujLvRh_4JHQ&feature=user
It looks distinctly different from this, besides the fact that the characters are different: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr9EoMXWEGo
Also, it wasn't an idiotic notion to assume that Brawl was going to improve as a game as time went on. There are things that have been discovered relatively recently in Melee's life like scarjumping.
I had plenty of reasons to hope. Wavedashing wasn't discovered in the first month of Melee. I've discovered new ways to combo recently in Melee and new strategies.4 ) If I've learned anything from my time on SWF, it's that hope means nothing if there isn't a reason to hope. Hoping for combos or something that would enable them without having a reason is foolish.
See even this late into Melee's life the BEST Melee player in the world has discovered new things. Why would I expect after a mere month of playing Brawl that everything was discovered? For the record, everything about Brawl WASN'T discovered in the first month and combos DID get SLIGHTLY better since then.Mew2King at 3:40 AM on 8/06 said:oovideogamegodoo (3:40:21 AM): i cant wait
oovideogamegodoo (3:40:24 AM): to fight shiz again
oovideogamegodoo (3:40:29 AM): i learned new ****
oovideogamegodoo (3:40:40 AM): like
oovideogamegodoo (3:40:45 AM): better winning/reliable strats
You should be sorry. Don't call people who don't play Melee Melee players.5 ) I'm so sorry I didn't preface every instance of 'Melee player' in my post with the word 'former'. I'm sure you'll understand better with this knowledge.
OK, let's say you run a Melee tournament in a region that is 99.9% Brawl and 5 people show up. That's not a tournament, that's a smashfest.6 ) TO's aren't to blame? Why? You say they don't have 'the choice to do what they want'? Everyone has a choice at all times. Whether someone makes the choice to act accordingly is another matter entirely.
If you live in a region where not enough people play Melee for there to be tournaments then your only choice is to choose between leaving competitive Smash entirely or playing Brawl.7 ) My OP just got done saying that the group to blame is not Brawl players, but the Melee players who have chosen to abandon it. I am partially to blame, and I assume full responsibility for my part in the downfall of competitive Melee... but I'm not a hypocrite because I'm not posting all over GBD about how much better Melee is, how everyone should play it, and how Brawl's tournament success is strangling Melee. Every single former Melee player that plays Brawl (exclusively in tournament settings) and complains about Brawl's dominance is a hypocrite.
Really? It's not directed at me? You didn't specifically say8 ) Guess what? You need to read moar. You're playing both games? And you're attempting to do so on a regular basis? Then this isn't even directed at you.
See, I fit the first sentence of that. I am a Brawl-playing person who supports Melee. I am ENTIRELY not to blame for the reason that Melee is on the decline.Jack Kieser's OP said:A problem arises, however, when a Brawl-playing Melee supporter complains about the sorry state of Melee. This person, at a base level, is the true reason that Melee is on the decline.
You never once said in your OP I can't be mad at Brawl for sucking?9 ) Let me tell you something. You have EVERY RIGHT to be mad at Brawl for sucking. You have NO RIGHT to blame Brawl for Melee's problems. I never once in my OP said you can't be mad at Brawl for sucking, if you think it sucks.
Hmm...well last I checked, I AM a person. You clearly stated that people, with the example of the person coreygames being given, are not allowed to be mad at Brawl. You had a blanket statement stating that no one is allowed to be mad at Brawl for any reason.Jack Kieser said:People like our dear coreygames have no reason, nor any right, to be mad at Brawl or Brawlers.
No one has denied that Brawl has had an effect to reduce the size of Melee's tournaments? LOOK AT THIS THREAD'S TITLE! You are CLEARLY denying that Brawl has had any negative effect on the size of Melee tournaments.I said you have no right placing blame for Melee's poor tournament showing lately squarely on Brawl's shoulders. Brawl had an effect, sure, and no one has denied that, but to say that the mere existence of Brawl somehow hurts Melee is ridiculous. I have already outlined why, so I won't repeat myself. Oh, but I will post this:
Actually I was hungry after I finished posting and went to get food. I came back and saw Skler had a post here and noticed there was something I forgot to respond to. Instead of wasting my time editing my post and refuting what you said I decided not to as Skler did a perfectly good job in doing so.I'll elaborate just for you, because you seem to have a problem with reading the thread and knowing what you're talking about before posting.
Skler said:The problem with your analogies is they're wrong.
If the universe never existed then Melee could never have existed and therefore this entire argument wouldn't exist. Trying to bring up an elaborate analogy that is completely unrelated for the sake of trying to prove that you can say "Hey look, I just proved something completely unrelated is to blame!" is stupid because Brawl clearly is related to Melee and clearly has had a direct effect on the Melee tournament scene. Just as the robber DIRECTLY caused the crime, Brawl has DIRECTLY caused a negative effect.If I really, really wanted to, I could prove to you that Melee's current state is all God's fault because if he never created the universe then *long line of causation* ..., which means that Sakurai would have never created Brawl and Brawl would have never stolen Melee players. See, I'd be right (if you believe in such things, technically we WOULDN'T have this problem if the universe didn't exist), but it's such a stretch that I'd be considered BS'ing you. There is a reason that, in my above quoted examples from post 4, I wouldn't be held accountable for the crime committed in front of me that I didn't take action to stop. Technically, yes, my actions enabled the crime, but I am second order causation. I'm removed from the actual event, the actual crime, so the crime, though I took no action to stop it, isn't directly my fault. The robber (assuming the crime is a robbery) receives the blame and consequences because he is the first order causation; his actions DIRECTLY caused the crime.
This is bad logic. Previously you said that the robber is first order causation and that if you weren't there at all the robbery would still have happened. Of course if you removed the robber, there would have been no robbery. THAT logic can be applied to this. If you removed the Brawl tournament or the existence of Brawl the Melee tournament would not have failed.Let's take a look at coreygames' tournament again. Yes, the existence of a rival tournament DID have an impact on coreygames' attendance... but not directly. The mere existence of the tournament did not mean that, by default, coreygames' tournament would fail. The Brawl tournament is a second order causation, and cannot be held responsible for coreygames' failed tournament. The players, however, made a conscious decision not to go to coreygames' tournament. Their decisions had a direct effect on the tournament attendance rate because the decision not to go by the players meant that they would not be bolstering the attendance rate, thus directly causing the tournament to fail. THIS is what you fail to realize, and what you have failed to refute.
You're right.You guys do realize that this is the same guy who attempts to start an 'items standard play' sector of tournaments, right? Trying to reason with him is fruitless.
It's all M2K's fault.
Okay. You are trolling. Or to a lesser extent, being annoying.Wrath, I do not spam. I actually avoid using his tornado unless its needed. Thats just not me.
Your posting history seems to suggest otherwise.I do not spam.
QFTIf you removed the Brawl tournament or the existence of Brawl the Melee tournament would not have failed.
I'm a serious person too. Very serious. And, while I may have no proof, I'm seriously 99.9% sure everyone here would agree you are not that good. A bit player of the masses who just started playing recently. Don't think you're the best because you dominate your little circle of friends...Seriously.I am going to say this: Ness/lucas can be good. and I d not spam, do NOT say I'm not a good player. You have no freaking proof, I'm a serious person. Very serious.
Your posts make it blatantly obvious that you don't know anything about this game.I am going to say this: Ness/lucas can be good. and I d not spam, do NOT say I'm not a good player. You have no freaking proof, I'm a serious person. Very serious.
The fact that you claim to have mastered Ness in Melee. First of all, Ness sucks. Period. I'm going to assume you're not Simna, who isn't that great of a player either, yet is still the best Ness in the world.so, explain how I failed. Otherwise your part of that 89% ******* part.
Okay. It doesn't matter if you're going to be a pro in the future. If you are, congratulations. But right now, you're still in the STARTING SMALL phase. Also, tiers actually affect strong players even more. Pros are better at exploiting characters' strengths and weaknesses.Your "your not known by the smash community, so be quite" statement makes me laugh. I have the right to speak here. Gimpyfish, KEN, simna...they all started out small like everyone. Anyone can be a professional if they try. You people fail to see it. Spamming also means your a weak, easily countered, *******. This is why I focus on mind games. Lucas and Ness are good, if its about the Tier list, then lemme say this: Tiers r 4 queers. Don't call me a troll. Don't call be a pathetic player. Then were all cool. Lucas/ness are good if you understand them: Meta can be used in different ways: and, Tiers do not affect the strong.
Go hang yourself.Well, let us stop arguing. I'm just trying to make a few points, yes, I made myself sound like an idiotic troll, but I heavily apologize. I am a good player, I just don't show it.
Seriously, guys, seriously. He's good on the inside. He doesn't have to show it in any match or video. He just is. On the inside.I am a good player, I just don't show it.
Ok, now you crossed the line.*pulls out death note
Uhm, no, if you're obliterated at tourneys, the competitive community refers to you as BAD or HORRID or TERRIBLE.The CPU's suck. I tend to play against my friends. I went to a couple of Melee tournies and was utterly obliterated, but eh. Also, Not claiming to be awesome. >_>
You're an idiot for thinking that we are trying to destroy Brawl.Thank you.
I have been saying this in nearly every Brawl/Melee debate thread, although most of the time it was ignored. I've always said that neither game is killing the other, in fact, I dare to quote myself: "Okay, maybe there's a decline in Melee tournaments. So... do something about it. And when I say "do something about it," I don't mean try to drive Brawl into the dust, because that will hurt all Smash... badly."
Really, the solution to this problem isn't trying to destroy Brawl.
^Your fault, not ours.Swordgard, you made a good point. I will get better at the game, which is tough with half of smashboards on my ***...
First step toward success is actually admitting our own errors. Btw, death note rocks hell yeah.Swordgard, you made a good point. I will get better at the game, which is tough with half of smashboards on my ***... How did I cross the line by pulling out Death Note? Man, I loved that anime....