The Final Nail: Why Brawl Can't Be Blamed for Melee's Problems

[KosukeKGA]

ChuDat quit because of Brawl's fanbase/tourney scene.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Okay. That made me lol.

Once again Jack kieser, you are an idiot. The debate is more less dead, leave it alone, it will pass. I even bought brawl cause naturally I wanted to try it out and I knew for a fact none the friends I had would buy it( I was living oos at the time) after I played it, I hated it of course. but again, your an idiot or at least not very smart when it comes to this debate because I've seen your post trying to help it, your always throwing blame at the melee community in way or another. just stop, seriously stop because your one of the only reasons the debate is even still going.

Also yes, brawl is hurting melee... is your op all you wanted to say because im waiting for something important.

Jack isn't pinning the blame on the Melee community as a whole, Zodiac. So please, refrain from calling him an idiot.

Smooth Criminal

 

[lain]

tl;dr

 

[AlphaZealot]

A big reason that Forward played Brawl was because he could win and make money. He's not a particularly wealthy person, so money is important to him. Two weeks ago, Forward, a few other AZ players, and I took a roadtrip down to MAST. Sean was confident that he'd bring home the gold. He ended up losing to a MK and a CGing ICs player, and less than a week later, he completely quit Smash altogether for multiple reasons. One being that he's 21 and needs to move on with life, but he told me that his loss at MAST was a factor in his retirement.

Do you know how many times Chu/Azen have told me they were quitting Melee? The point is simply that some Melee players moved on and aren't pissed at Brawl. Heck, prior to Brawls release he told me Chu was going to quit Melee just because he was sick of playing the game after 5 years. I guess Isai quitting Melee was proof that Smash 64 was truly the best Smash game. After all, Isai was an advocate for 64 his entire Melee career.

Melee was fine on it's own, everything was going great and then brawl shows up and things go sour. Brawl obviously took a lot of players from Melee (mostly the bad ones, no offense), and by taking those players the good ones also went to brawl tournies to make tons of money.

I believe this is a contradiction Jack was talking about. The bad players "went" but the good players were "taken". The reasons for anyone playing Brawl are meaningless, people will play Brawl, people will play Melee. If the reasons actually did have meaning, like the angelic cause of keeping Melee alive, then why is this not translating to Melee attendance? M2K has turned his back more on the Melee community than any player who likes Brawl has, because he DOESN'T like Brawl, but chooses to play it over Melee. Sure, if Brawl had never existed, this wouldn't be a problem, but 5 years down the road Melee wouldn't have half the community it does now. A new game was needed, and part of the reason 2007 was Melees best year was because new members interested in Brawl came to Smashboards and discovered a lively Melee scene, which they used to pass the time until Brawls release.

No one is forced to go to Brawl tournaments. Most players go because they want to play Brawl. A small fraction go because, apparently, they hate Brawl but want money. You aren't going to win back the players that just moved onto Brawl, and apparently you can't win back the really good players because they don't stand by their morals, a fault that lies with them, not with Brawl.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

>___>

Morality is fairly ambiguous when there's easy money to be picked up, AZ.

And, in M2K's defense, he hasn't completely forsaken Melee. FAST 1 and TGMTSBCO had Melee tourneys (hell, TGMTSBCO was Melee-only) and he attended those. I'm sure if there was Melee, somewhere, he'd go. It seems that EC wants to host nothing but Brawl tourneys though, simply because of the "shiny new game" effect that Brawl has cast over the majority of those who play it.

Smooth Criminal

 

[4Serial]

Forward quit for real this time?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
**** you sakurai!! you and your silly barwl
=[

I lost my friends to brawl
i blame brawl

 

[Vulcan55]

Jack isn't pinning the blame on the Melee community as a whole, Zodiac. So please, refrain from calling him an idiot.

Smooth Criminal

Yes he is and yes he is.

If these people really cared for Melee or for its continued competitive existence, they would play Melee. They would hold Melee tournaments. They would support their own game instead of calling on Brawl players to support it for them. Doing otherwise is childish and hypocritical.

This is just plain incorrect and insulting.
We DO care for Melee and it's competitive existance, we DO play Melee, and we DO hold tourneys.
Most of all, what we DON'T do is call on Brawlers to support Melee for us.
Where did you even get the idea that this happens?
Show me some sources for that, please.

Still waiting.
All JK is doing is dodging valid points and nitpicking little things without actually adressing what he responds to.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Yes, Forward quit for real.

I am one of the few Melee players of Arizona...Take it from me. Ask Tai (Tee Ay Eye), also.

Only 7 active Melee players exist in Arizona. It's quite sad.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Also, after Forward lost in MAST's brawl tourney, he was psyched for the Melee tourney the next day. Perhaps since it was true guaranteed money that time (it was SUPPOSED to be a Brawl/Melee tourney) but there were not enough people to play Melee the next day

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yes he is and yes he is.

>_________>

At least he's being intelligent about it, which is more than I can say for most people in this thread.

*points at The_Dark_Zero strawman.*


And I, too, am awaiting Jack's response.


Smooth Criminal

 

[Vyse]

I believe this is a contradiction Jack was talking about. The bad players "went" but the good players were "taken". The reasons for anyone playing Brawl are meaningless, people will play Brawl, people will play Melee. If the reasons actually did have meaning, like the angelic cause of keeping Melee alive, then why is this not translating to Melee attendance? M2K has turned his back more on the Melee community than any player who likes Brawl has, because he DOESN'T like Brawl, but chooses to play it over Melee. Sure, if Brawl had never existed, this wouldn't be a problem, but 5 years down the road Melee wouldn't have half the community it does now. A new game was needed, and part of the reason 2007 was Melees best year was because new members interested in Brawl came to Smashboards and discovered a lively Melee scene, which they used to pass the time until Brawls release.

Everything in this pararaph is truth, especially the last section.

I play Brawl because everybody else is.
Especially in a state, in a county where Melee barely had a reputable scene in the first place. (I realise I'm repeating an earlier post)

Brawl serves the purpose of boosting the smash scene (And we can all agree that it has).

It's my belief that if people truly do want Melee to survive, it has to be run alongsde Brawl. To me, there is no Melee, there is no Brawl, there's just smash.

So everybody is saying that people are in it for the money?
So they are saying that they are attracting very large numbers.

Then why aren't there more events like FAST?

FAST in my opinion, got it right. People got really hyped over what happened in FAST. I sure as heck didn't care to watch the Brawl videos that came out of that tourney, but the Melee ones.

If these Melee Vets are being drawn by Brawl, then why would they not attend a tourney offering both? It's the best of both worlds.

Yes, it's a lot to ask, not everyone can run events as big as FAST. But it can be done, surely.

The only way I see Melee surviving in the long term, is if more tournaments are run on a larger scale.

 

[replicate]

I'm just gonna say that I will critique your writing style because I'm a prick.

It has been proven (or at least, enough to matter) how pointless the whole argument is, but the Melee/Brawl debate has one last safe refuge in the minds of players: that Brawl somehow has caused all of Melee's current problems, and that . . . Brawl's continued existence is not only a drain on Melee, but that Melee cannot co-exist with Brawl at all and thus the community must actively choose to only play Melee competitively if it is to survive.

There is no proof of this; so far you've done a great job making yourself sound awkward and uninformed. You could say "some people think this, but it's wrong"; as it is, you are setting up a fallacious situation and essentially putting words in people's mouths.

I will now prove, logically, how inane this line of thinking is

Don't do this; aside from making you sound ridiculous, calling your arguments logical and sound does not magically make them so.

and dispel once and for all the notion that we, as a community, cannot continue to play both games competitively, as well as the notion that Brawl (as well as the people who play it) is somehow to blame for all of Melee's problems.

Ok.

Let us take first into consideration the notion that Melee players are basically forced to play Brawl by examining the Brawl launch in Japan. . . . . .Brawl was deemed a failure.

Many, even in the early days, cited a lack of AT's (advanced techniques), most notably L-canceling (which was replaced with auto-canceled aerials), a lack of hitstun, and floaty physics as Brawl's downfall, and over the next few weeks leading up to Brawl's American release, SWF was ablaze with members warning about Brawl's 'features', or lack thereof.

To the best of my knowledge, brawl was still received with extremely mixed opinions. To call it an "immediate failure" in the eyes of competitive players seems extreme.

L-cancelling WAS NOT replaced with auto-cancels; this is an absurd comparison and you are drastically oversimplifying things. Especially since auto-cancels existed in both games preceding brawl, and you can't auto-cancel a move right before you hit the ground.

Despite all warnings, an overwhelming majority of Melee players purchased Brawl anyway.

This is the first step toward realizing that Brawl is not the cause of Melee's downfall. Every member of SWF, right out of the box, knew what Brawl's weaknesses were. Every member knew how different the game was. Every member heard the pro's evaluations and dismissals of the game, and every member knew what to expect going into their purchase. Most ignored the warnings and bought Brawl anyway.

No, no, no, no. I followed the brawl release as closely as anyone, I paid money to play on PBody's imported copy at a melee tournament, I heard gimpyfish, lucky, DC's reactions to it. I heard gimpy talking about in on an interview with get your tournament from that same day; he said that it's a different game, but it definitely has competitive potential. What you are saying was NOT the case, and your parallel structure makes you sound dumber and dumber every time you say that "EVERY" competitive melee player knew that brawl "was deemed a failure" from the get-go. Feel free to prove me wrong otherwise.

Every Melee player that bought Brawl made a conscious decision to ignore the warnings of both Japanese and American top players and bought Brawl anyway.

You are so wrong it's ridiculous.


I'm too tired to refute the rest of your argument. There are definitely some valid points, but trying to decipher what you're actually saying is like pulling teeth. Trust me, using big words is not a good way to connect to your audience--neither is passive voice, stilted sentence structure, or lofty attitude.

To be honest, though, I agree that the apathetic melee player is a big part of the game's current situation.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Im still annoyed how many people don't seem to know what auto canceling is -.-

Just so everyone knows, what most characters do is NOT auto canceling, its just ending the move before you it the ground. Auto canceling is landing DURING THE ATTACK ANIMATION on frames that act as jump landing frames rather than attack landing frames(if any of you young whippersnappers took the time to actually study nowadays you'd know that)

 

[LUVTOY77-ROGUE WIREFRAME]

Brawl, naturally, is a BIT of the cause of melee's downfall. It's the new game, of course people are going to go to it, it's cause and effect, new game comes out, people play the new game.

Brawl was something new, something to refresh the smash bros. series, something that I, personally, see as a blessing, no matter how much it differs from its predecessors. It's still a smash game, the basic principles from the last two games are there, so of course Melee players are going to try it out.

It is, in a way, Brawl's fault the melee scene is diminishing, simply because of its existance. HOWEVER, it is also INDIVIDUAL melee players. It is no the melee community as a whole, but those who choose to attend a Brawl tournament instead of a Melee one.

If a Melee player attends a Brawl tournament instead of attending a Melee one... Then look! He's Brawling instead of playing melee. Therefore each of those individuals who decide to attend a brawl tourny instead of a melee one, are responsible for melee's diminishing competitiveness. This makes complete sense. If the competitors willingly do not attend the competition, then they are responsible for the competition not being as big. Brawl is the cause of the melee fans going to brawl tournies, of course. And melee fans abandoning melee tournaments for Brawl ones is the effect.

HOWEVER, melee fans make the CHOICE to go play Brawl, for whatever reason, instead of Melee. Therefore they cannont blame Brawl for the melee scene diminishing, simply because they are the ones causing it to diminish. Why? Because they are making the CHOICE to move on to Brawl.

Note: I understand some people play both Brawl and Melee. I myself think they are both excellent games. A person can still play melee and brawl, and be cause for melee's downfall. Why? because he might still play melee, but if he attends a Brawl tournament instead of a Melee tournament, and enough similar people make the same decision, that tournament fails.

What i think is that Melee, as a whole, is still alive and well, and thriving. It's just individual tournaments that suffer. Many, many people still enjoy and play melee. It's just that some of them make the decision to go to Brawl competitions instead of melee's, and that is their own faults.

In the end, I think that it is not the Melee community as a whole who is 'destroying' melee, nor is it Brawls community. What is withering away at Melee's competitive setting is the fact Brawl exists, and the fact that Melee tourny regulars are abandoning Melee for Brawl. The blame lies on both sides of the argument, but the blame shouldn't really matter. Brawl exists--nothing you can do. Melee regulards turning to Brawl for whatever reasons--nothing you can do. Now, THEY can decide to go back to melee. That, in consequence, would boost Melee's tournament scene.

I can go on and on restating these points, but that in itself would be pointless, so i'm just going to say what I need to say, and that is:

Brawl's existance is the cause for a diminishing Melee competitive community, just as much as the competitve Melee community moving on to Brawl for whatever reasons, even if just temporarily. All in all, both sides, once again, are to blame, but really... they shouldn't be.

 

[replicate]

my mistake, I guess

auto-canceling in melee is basically waiting for the move to end (i.e., auto-canceling nairs with marth m2k style), dunno why they would call it something different in brawl

frames that act as jump-landing frames? are there any moves with "jump-landing frames" in the middle, or are they all at the end. I know what auto-canceling is, like with ganon's stomps or wario's dair. It is not nearly as viable a technique as l-canceling.

I don't play brawl, sorry that I don't "study" something that I'm not interested in.


Also, spelling it "canceling" looks really stupid.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Good god, you guys chose the worst possible times to give me multiple posts to respond to. By the way, sorry I haven't responded until now... I was having fun playing Brawl.

Unfortunately enough for you all, it's 2 AM here and I have work in the morning, so I don't have the time to deal with multiple responses right now. I'm not ignoring anyone, and (because god knows people who grasp at straws in the first place love to call things early) I'm not conceding anything until I say so. I'm just sleeping because I have a life to take care of. Just to be clear. <_< ... >_>

I'll be back sometime tomorrow; if I miss something tomorrow because the thread moved in the night, let me know. I'll deal with all the people who thought they read the OP when morning comes.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Ok, let me just explain.

Lets take Marth's Nair like you said ok? Here's all the info on it:

N-Air

Total: 49
Hit: 6-7, 15-21
Auto cancel: <5 25>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

There is a total of 49 frames in the attack animation, BUT should you land from the 5th to the 25th frame of the attack, rather than getting the land lag from the attack(15 frames normal, 7 L-Canceled), you'll get the just the normal land lag that marth has(4 frames) Now then, should you stay in the air for LONGER than the 49 frames of the attack, THEN land, obviously you'll get the standard 4 frame land lag. This is not auto canceling, this is just landing and that is what is mostly happening in Brawl, the attack is simply ending before you land.

Oh yeah, and credit for this data goes to SuperDoodleMan and his melee frame list.

 

[replicate]

sounds good

is spamming it like m2k a "true" autocancel then?



still, comparing autocancels to l-cancelling seems completely out of the question

 

[Falconv1.0]

A tourney ran Melee and Brawl for a while in Sac, and it was pretty ****ing popular. At the time, I really knew nothing about competitive play and sucked balls at Melee and Brawl, so I ignored the Melee part. But both sides were having fun, and now that I'm actually learning Melee, I kinda hope that tourney scene comes back, because both are great games in my opinion. (I have no idea if it will run again, I haven't seen it on the regional zones in a while, but meh, I'm sure it's not dead.)

Quick question, does M2K still hate Brawl? Jack's quote comes from before the game even launched, I remember that ****, opinions can change.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I can honestly say that yes, M2K still hates Brawl.

 

[replicate]

rofl the best in the US hates it

too good

 

[Grunt]

There is one contradicting flaw in all melee'ers posts, some say BRAWL IS DEAD OR DYING, whiel other say IT"S ALIVE AND KICKIG. I would love to know wich one it is, (cause it is dead where I live)

If you don't live near a coast line, It's dead.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Quick question, does M2K still hate Brawl? Jack's quote comes from before the game even launched, I remember that ****, opinions can change.

Yup. He IMed me after FAST saying that Brawl is really boring and that you have to camp to win.

 

[Grunt]

?

AZ, you need some spiffy title instead of just Moderator Moderator.

Only 7 active Melee players exist in Arizona. It's quite sad.

Lol, like OR.
we had a 4 man tourney :D
2 of us from WA too.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, now that I'm thinking, I can't sleep, so I'm going to go ahead and start refuting stuff now until I get tired.

@teh spammer:

1 ) Actually, someone (and I can't for the life of me remember who right now) came into one of the earlier MvB threads and stated quite clearly that if it wasn't for flaming '08-ers/Brawlers, he wouldn't come into GBD at all. I'll try to find the post, but I'm not promising anything.

2 ) Reading the thread is a great thing:

Finally, you can be responsible in part for something without being to blame for it. If a crime goes by in front of me, I am partially responsible for not stopping it personally, but am I to blame? No, because I was not the person actively committing the crime. Many Melee players are accusing Brawl of actively committing the 'crime' of killing competitive Melee, and Brawl is obviously not to blame for this.

Brawl players can assume SOME responsibility for the state of Melee (because they aren't playing it either), but they shouldn't, nor can they, be totally blamed for it, or even be blamed to any significant amount, because of how little effect they have in relation to Melee players.

3 ) Nothing is wrong with trying to improve Brawl; people have been trying since January. The problem I was talking about was that people read all about Brawl in the month leading up to the American launch, and then were for some reason surprised to learn that everything they heard on the boards was true! We knew about a lack of hitstun, a lack of techs to increase aerial viability, and about no combos (or at least enough to predict the coming months, as Gimpyfish could). There was no reason for these people to be so surprised on day one because they had been reading this stuff for a month.

4 ) If I've learned anything from my time on SWF, it's that hope means nothing if there isn't a reason to hope. Hoping for combos or something that would enable them without having a reason is foolish.

5 ) I'm so sorry I didn't preface every instance of 'Melee player' in my post with the word 'former'. I'm sure you'll understand better with this knowledge.

6 ) TO's aren't to blame? Why? You say they don't have 'the choice to do what they want'? Everyone has a choice at all times. Whether someone makes the choice to act accordingly is another matter entirely.

7 ) My OP just got done saying that the group to blame is not Brawl players, but the Melee players who have chosen to abandon it. I am partially to blame, and I assume full responsibility for my part in the downfall of competitive Melee... but I'm not a hypocrite because I'm not posting all over GBD about how much better Melee is, how everyone should play it, and how Brawl's tournament success is strangling Melee. Every single former Melee player that plays Brawl (exclusively in tournament settings) and complains about Brawl's dominance is a hypocrite.

8 ) Guess what? You need to read moar. You're playing both games? And you're attempting to do so on a regular basis? Then this isn't even directed at you.

9 ) Let me tell you something. You have EVERY RIGHT to be mad at Brawl for sucking. You have NO RIGHT to blame Brawl for Melee's problems. I never once in my OP said you can't be mad at Brawl for sucking, if you think it sucks. I said you have no right placing blame for Melee's poor tournament showing lately squarely on Brawl's shoulders. Brawl had an effect, sure, and no one has denied that, but to say that the mere existence of Brawl somehow hurts Melee is ridiculous. I have already outlined why, so I won't repeat myself. Oh, but I will post this:

=Jack Kieser in post #49]To all the people saying that it all the Melee problems are still Brawl's fault because if Brawl hadn't been released, we'd never have had so many Melee players switch over, etc., I postulate this. Your line of reasoning could easily be expanded to the following two statements:

The Iraq war was caused by the Iraqis. If they had never been there in the first place, we wouldn't have had to invade their country to 'liberate' them at all.

The Holocaust wasn't Hitler's fault, it was the Jews'. If they had never been there to begin with, he never would have had to try to exterminate them, and there never would have been massive genocide.

Obviously, those are statements made with broken logic. It is always possible to defer responsibility to something or someone down a line of causation, but the farther away from the base of causation you get, the more you have to reach to place blame. So, yes, it is totally possible to BS your way to blaming Brawl for A, B, or C. If you had ANY intellectual honesty, though, you'd admit that you have to reach to do so, and that it is much easier (and much more accurate) to just place blame where it is due (on the shoulders of the Melee players who deferred to Brawl).

I'll elaborate just for you, because you seem to have a problem with reading the thread and knowing what you're talking about before posting. If I really, really wanted to, I could prove to you that Melee's current state is all God's fault because if he never created the universe then *long line of causation* ..., which means that Sakurai would have never created Brawl and Brawl would have never stolen Melee players. See, I'd be right (if you believe in such things, technically we WOULDN'T have this problem if the universe didn't exist), but it's such a stretch that I'd be considered BS'ing you. There is a reason that, in my above quoted examples from post 4, I wouldn't be held accountable for the crime committed in front of me that I didn't take action to stop. Technically, yes, my actions enabled the crime, but I am second order causation. I'm removed from the actual event, the actual crime, so the crime, though I took no action to stop it, isn't directly my fault. The robber (assuming the crime is a robbery) receives the blame and consequences because he is the first order causation; his actions DIRECTLY caused the crime.

Let's take a look at coreygames' tournament again. Yes, the existence of a rival tournament DID have an impact on coreygames' attendance... but not directly. The mere existence of the tournament did not mean that, by default, coreygames' tournament would fail. The Brawl tournament is a second order causation, and cannot be held responsible for coreygames' failed tournament. The players, however, made a conscious decision not to go to coreygames' tournament. Their decisions had a direct effect on the tournament attendance rate because the decision not to go by the players meant that they would not be bolstering the attendance rate, thus directly causing the tournament to fail. THIS is what you fail to realize, and what you have failed to refute.

Brawl/Brawl players are second order causation; if the former Melee players had never left Melee, then Melee would still be thriving, thus the Melee players are the first order causation and must assume majority blame.

[NOTE: I might clean this response up in the morning if it is necessary. We'll see.]

@Skler: Irrelevant. The analogies were not postulated to be a 1:1 match to Melee/Brawl, they were postulated to show that, given enough BS and enough lines of causation, I could attribute blame of something to nearly anything, even to what deserves blame the least.

@Vulcan55: Smooth Criminal is quite right; if you weren't so busy trying to make me look foolish and instead read my posts, you have known that this is directed at the people who say they love Melee and want the Melee player base to expand, yet blame Brawl, a game they abandoned Melee to play, as the sole or even main cause of Melee's fall from grace. This, ultimately, applies to hypocrites.

@replicate:

1 ) See my previous thread about why the debate is pointless and meaningless; so far, many have tried to prove me wrong conclusively, and all have failed.

2 ) So, my OP is not based in sound logic derived from a sequence of logical conclusions? Please, enlighten us to how I've made a single claim in the OP that is counter-intuitive to how logic works.

3 ) In terms of playing Brawl, what else do you have but auto-canceling your aerials? What other way, other than timing them correctly, do you have to reduce your landing lag? If the answer is nothing (or at least nothing significant or widely-used), then 'replace' is a correct term.

4 ) (This isn't sarcasm, btw) I'm sorry I used a little hyperbole to get a point across. 'Vast majority'... are you happy now?

5 ) If you agree that 'the apathetic melee player is a big part of the game's current situation', then there is NOTHING else to say, as that is the crux of my argument. You just spent a whole post trying to refute something that you, at a base level, agree with. Job well done.

And that's all I have to say about that... for now. I'm going to bed.

 

[Vulcan55]

JACK KIESER used DOUBLE TEAM!
JACK KIESER's EVADE rose!

Also,
How many people left Melee for Brawl, continue to play Brawl for money, yet hate the game, AND complain about the shrinking Melee community size?
If that's really who this is aimed at, you are looking for a very small audience.

 

[Grunt]

So basically...
It's M2K's fault.

 

[Yuna]

This is rich coming from someone who has admitted to not playing Melee Competitively for a very long time, and more importantly, on a very low level of play.

You know why so many of us are now begrudgingly playing Brawl? Because the Melee scene is dying. When Brawl was released, everyone jumped ship. Well... a lot of people... most of them n00bs and low level players. Many (many, not all) of the old Top Level players either left the scene or are playing Brawl begrudgingly.

So we're hypocrites for switching over (not that we all have. Many of us play both games)? Would you rather want us to not play Brawl? Yes, obviously, everyone would win then. The skill level at Brawl tournaments would drop critically.

THis happened with Soul Calibur III. Eventually, people just stopped playing it altogether. I was around for that scene's death. I don't want it to happen with Smash. But it could.

And, oh hey, Jack. Most of the idiots whining about Brawl/Melee in non-logical and flaming manners are idiots. Most of them couldn't play for the life of them and suck at both games. Don't blame all of who prefer Melee for the mistakes of a few, but vocal, idiots.

Whenever I "complain" about Brawl, I provide valid reasoning as to why.

This is no final nail. This is just you whining about BS. You making blanket statements and grouping together all "anti-Brawlers" with the few idiot anti-Brawlers. I don't hate Brawl illogically. I have good reasons to hate it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

God I love Yuna

 

[Vulcan55]

I was about to say something about Melee not being dead, but then I noticed Yuna's location and can't really talk.

um... Go yuna?

 

[MarKO X]

Yeah... um... Jack?

About the l-cancel auto-cancel thing... auto-cancel can't replace l-cancel if both were in Melee and only one is in Brawl. Like... okay, take the old, OLD Toronto Raptors (1999-2002 maybe?), when they had both Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady. Both are superstars (although I'm sure Vince was better than TMac then). TMac was traded to the Magic eventually, but Vince was still there. Vince did not replace TMac, Tmac was removed from the team.

Here's another one (because ur like one of the few people who can decipher analogies here...) I have a fruit salad, and it has both critic fruits oranges and lemons in it. I make fruit salad 2 (the sequel to fruit salad), and it only has oranges in it. The oranges didn't replace the lemons because the oranges were in it in the first place.

So yeah, my point is that autocancelling and l-cancelling were in Melee, and l-cancelling was removed with auto-cancelling being left... it replaced nothing.

But otherwise... I see that this thread has developed into one hell of an argument. On one hand, you can blame the Melee players that have left their beloved game to play Brawl, even though they say Melee is better. On the other hand, you can blame Brawl for coming and having created such a huge tourney scene for pros to win big money in.

Here's what I want to know... if everybody who says that Brawl sux decided to not to go Brawl tournaments, what would the turnout for Brawl tournaments be like?

 

[Grunt]

fruit salad 2 (the sequel to fruit salad)

Lol.
I really Loled.

 

[Yuna]

I was about to say something about Melee not being dead, but then I noticed Yuna's location and can't really talk.

Dying =/= Dead.

I see I accidentally wrote "died" instead of "is dying". I'll fix that.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

Smooth criminal, do not dare question my status. Your part of the 89% that are *******es.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

The 11%/89% is from my standpoint. I have seen the community for a very long time, very long. Since 04.

 

[illboyzeus]

Wow, I really don't like the way JK posts lol. He attempts to push his argument forward by using inane analogies, broken logic, a condescending attitude and big words. Now I have a huge vocab, but it gets very annoying when someone just uses big words just because they can.

Also relating a videogame to Hitler and the Jews is ******** on so many levels to begin with.

Melee is only dead/dying in select places, in the midwest it is alive and thriving. This week is a tourney that is sure to attract at least 80 participants. People made sure to have their brawl tournies on a different date, since they knew NO ONE would come in place of the melee tourney. This is the midwest though, so I will not claim to know about other regions.

I also think the influx of brawl newbs is to blame also. more newbs=more easy money. If you play smash for the money then brawl is obviously the way to go.

I guess it's easy to blame melee goers who frequent brawl though, since they are still the most prominent placers, and take all the newbs money.

And Jack admitted he hasn't played on a high level in melee, so what exactly gives him the right to make a thread about it every other day?

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

As too earlier posts, I've seen the community for more than two days. Why in gods name would I make an account for no reason? I made it too change the community. One day....also, not a whiner, just was pissed at that point.

 

[Lovage 805]

hahahah, it's comedy gold when brawl noobs (for lack of a better term, you know what i refer to) compare l canceling to auto canceling. both were in melee, all autocanceling is is ending your move before it hits the ground this was not very useful for most characters in melee, one exception being marth's nair, which was very powerful if you forsaked fast falling for an auto cancel.

auto canceling is NOTHING compared to l canceling, it barely effects the viability or success of a character in tournament play, it's fun but not very important

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

If there is no basis of top melee players for which to build the community upon... the game will die. Jack has a valid point and it is pointless looking at his walls of text that he has wasted so much time on lol..

If melee players don't host tournies and if the vets don't come out to support them, then the ssbm tournies will not be successful. What is so hard for my fellow ssbm supporters to understand.

IDK how this is the "final nail" lol... the debate ends pretty much in favor of ssbm everytime.. So if this closes out the debates and melee is indeed seen as the superior competitive game.. then yea, i guess this is the final nail. Honestly, idc really what game you play since you aren't really a part of my immediate community, but i at least want you to understand the reasons melee should and will be dominant once again.

Really the problem began solving itself your us. You attract some of the brawl players to the melee tournies and they can tell the difference between the two games right away and many make the switch. One, to be blunt, was destined to be a great competitive game; the other, simply is seeing success due to how new it is and the already strong drive for a competitive community that it gained from the melee scene. To me, brawl really doesn't owe much of its competitive success to it being a good game, but rather from the need of many melee players to find and explore new horizens, even if those pastures aren't in fact greener. Yet, so many melee players continue to play brawl even tho they dislike it. This, as jack as stated, truely does hurt the melee community more so than any amount of new scrubs who go to play brawl. It is our own fault for letting melee die, if it does. Building the melee competitive scene was not done without effort and keeping it alive during these dark times will only require more effort on the part of the melee vets.

 

[MarKO X]

Wow, I really don't like the way JK posts lol. He attempts to push his argument forward by using inane analogies, broken logic, a condescending attitude and big words. Now I have a huge vocab, but it gets very annoying when someone just uses big words just because they can.

Also relating a videogame to Hitler and the Jews is ******** on so many levels to begin with.

Melee is only dead/dying in select places, in the midwest it is alive and thriving. This week is a tourney that is sure to attract at least 80 participants. People made sure to have their brawl tournies on a different date, since they knew NO ONE would come in place of the melee tourney. This is the midwest though, so I will not claim to know about other regions.

I also think the influx of brawl newbs is to blame also. more newbs=more easy money. If you play smash for the money then brawl is obviously the way to go.

I guess it's easy to blame melee goers who frequent brawl though, since they are still the most prominent placers, and take all the newbs money.

And Jack admitted he hasn't played on a high level in melee, so what exactly gives him the right to make a thread about it every other day?

Admittedly, Jack's analogies aren't the best, but if we're making standards for analogies, I've seen very few "good" analogies, but that's beyond the point. You say that Jack's logic is broke... how so? Explain, because as far as I know, I can agree with what jack is saying.

About Melee thriving in the midwest... good for you! *in a seriously happy tone* It's good to see that somewhere people are playing the game they want to play and not the game that everyone else is playing. Playing Smash for money may be the problem here, as you play the game that will get you the easy money, not the game that you like more. So, maybe you can't blame Brawl noobs, Melee pros, TOs, or anybody but... you guessed it, the object that causes one too many problems for what it's worth, money.

Finally, can you judge a man's logic based on the fact that he admitted to being a low-level Melee player? Can you judge a man's ability to think based on his ability to play Smash? I know that obviously your level of play and your committment to Melee (or former committment in some cases) can affect the way you see Brawl/Melee issues, but at the same time saying that he's a low level player doesn't mean he isn't a high level thinker, even if you don't agree with what he says.

As too earlier posts, I've seen the community for more than two days. Why in gods name would I make an account for no reason? I made it too change the community. One day....also, not a whiner, just was pissed at that point.

You? Change the community? LOL!!!

Okay, now that I got that out the way, how do you plan on changing the community?