The Final Nail: Why Brawl Can't Be Blamed for Melee's Problems

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Mabye we like to discuss such things.... it is a brawl discussion forum... if it entertains us.. why not let us do it? You don't have to read through these threads...

 

[Zodiac]

Mabye we like to discuss such things.... it is a brawl discussion forum... if it entertains us.. why not let us do it? You don't have to read through these threads...

Thats not the point, doesn't matter if I read it or not. Everyone else does and it WILL eventually carry over if people don't just let it go. anyway I hope anyone reading this will understand.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Thats not the point, doesn't matter if I read it or not. Everyone else does and it WILL eventually carry over if people don't just let it go. anyway I hope anyone reading this will understand.

I guess i just don't see the harm in discussing such things.... everything continues operating the same as usual... maybe with just a few more disgruntled citizens...

 

[M.K]

I'm trying to think of a good analogy....for pro player's transition to Brawl....

Ok.

If you are starving to death in the desert, nobody is around you, and you can't find any food anywhere. You find a table full of people in a ratty old shack in the middle of nowhere. They are eating BEEF, but you are a vegetarian. Unless you eat the beef, however, you will die. So you eat the beef, because you have no other food around otherwise.

Try to fit Melee and Brawl into that....

 

[retro gamer 6]

ugh, there is NO point in these threads anymore, it is no longer a debate its just members on swf trying to sound cool, my question to all of you is. WHY DON'T YOU JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, if you had, if random threads like these keep popping up the debate will keep limping along, just alive enough to be a thorn in all of our sides. Not just on the boards but at tournaments to, there are even tournaments that have both games and specifically request each side not to bicker with one another. It starts here but its spreads to the tournaments. Keeping it alive by posting things like these is no good.

so why don't you just ignore it instead?

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm trying to think of a good analogy....for pro player's transition to Brawl....

Ok.

If you are starving to death in the desert, nobody is around you, and you can't find any food anywhere. You find a table full of people in a ratty old shack in the middle of nowhere. They are eating BEEF, but you are a vegetarian. Unless you eat the beef, however, you will die. So you eat the beef, because you have no other food around otherwise.

Try to fit Melee and Brawl into that....

I can easily do that. In terms of your analogy, the problem at hand is when said vegetarian goes into the shack, begins eating the beef, then loudly b*tches about having to eat beef to survive instead of vegetables, all the while berating the people who live in the shack for eating such inferior food and proclaiming how sh*tty the beef tastes.

 

[teh_spamerer]

1 ) Actually, someone (and I can't for the life of me remember who right now) came into one of the earlier MvB threads and stated quite clearly that if it wasn't for flaming '08-ers/Brawlers, he wouldn't come into GBD at all. I'll try to find the post, but I'm not promising anything.

That's nice. But you know what you said? Let me quote you so that

Members of either game's community venture into the opposite game's boards with the sole aim of trolling or flame-baiting.

By pluralizing "member", you are stating that there are numerous people from both communities going into the opposite game's boards to flame. God forbid I interpret what you said to mean that and not as "Hey, Jack Kieser read a post from someone and he's only talking about a single person."

2 ) Reading the thread is a great thing:

Yes it is.

Finally, you can be responsible in part for something without being to blame for it. If a crime goes by in front of me, I am partially responsible for not stopping it personally, but am I to blame? No, because I was not the person actively committing the crime. Many Melee players are accusing Brawl of actively committing the 'crime' of killing competitive Melee, and Brawl is obviously not to blame for this.

Brawl players can assume SOME responsibility for the state of Melee (because they aren't playing it either), but they shouldn't, nor can they, be totally blamed for it, or even be blamed to any significant amount, because of how little effect they have in relation to Melee players.

See all this? NONE OF THIS refutes the FACT that if Brawl was never going to be made then there would be more Melee tournaments and more people playing at Melee tournaments.

3 ) Nothing is wrong with trying to improve Brawl; people have been trying since January. The problem I was talking about was that people read all about Brawl in the month leading up to the American launch, and then were for some reason surprised to learn that everything they heard on the boards was true! We knew about a lack of hitstun, a lack of techs to increase aerial viability, and about no combos (or at least enough to predict the coming months, as Gimpyfish could). There was no reason for these people to be so surprised on day one because they had been reading this stuff for a month.

Reading my post is a great thing. Since I'm such a nice guy, I'm going to repost a portion of my post in this one and color code responses that I made to your statements already.

I am fairly certain the majority of people who purchased Brawl did so with the expectation that things would be discovered to make comboing better and for the game to be played faster.Wavedashing was not discovered within the first month of competitive Melee.No, every member of SWF did not know exactly 100% of how competitive Brawl was going to look like months after it was released when they bought it on the first day.

See this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujLvRh_4JHQ&feature=user
It looks distinctly different from this, besides the fact that the characters are different: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr9EoMXWEGo

Also, it wasn't an idiotic notion to assume that Brawl was going to improve as a game as time went on. There are things that have been discovered relatively recently in Melee's life like scarjumping.

Did I say I was surprised on day one that I didn't know extensive combos yet? No. I'm pretty sure that not that many people were surprised. I actually happened to go to someone's apartment who imported Brawl and I played it before the game was released in America. My personal opinion when I left was that I had fun because it was a new game and that I would learn how to combo the way I comboed in Melee.

4 ) If I've learned anything from my time on SWF, it's that hope means nothing if there isn't a reason to hope. Hoping for combos or something that would enable them without having a reason is foolish.

I had plenty of reasons to hope. Wavedashing wasn't discovered in the first month of Melee. I've discovered new ways to combo recently in Melee and new strategies.

oovideogamegodoo (3:40:21 AM): i cant wait
oovideogamegodoo (3:40:24 AM): to fight shiz again
oovideogamegodoo (3:40:29 AM): i learned new ****
oovideogamegodoo (3:40:40 AM): like
oovideogamegodoo (3:40:45 AM): better winning/reliable strats

See even this late into Melee's life the BEST Melee player in the world has discovered new things. Why would I expect after a mere month of playing Brawl that everything was discovered? For the record, everything about Brawl WASN'T discovered in the first month and combos DID get SLIGHTLY better since then.

5 ) I'm so sorry I didn't preface every instance of 'Melee player' in my post with the word 'former'. I'm sure you'll understand better with this knowledge.

You should be sorry. Don't call people who don't play Melee Melee players.

6 ) TO's aren't to blame? Why? You say they don't have 'the choice to do what they want'? Everyone has a choice at all times. Whether someone makes the choice to act accordingly is another matter entirely.

OK, let's say you run a Melee tournament in a region that is 99.9% Brawl and 5 people show up. That's not a tournament, that's a smashfest.

7 ) My OP just got done saying that the group to blame is not Brawl players, but the Melee players who have chosen to abandon it. I am partially to blame, and I assume full responsibility for my part in the downfall of competitive Melee... but I'm not a hypocrite because I'm not posting all over GBD about how much better Melee is, how everyone should play it, and how Brawl's tournament success is strangling Melee. Every single former Melee player that plays Brawl (exclusively in tournament settings) and complains about Brawl's dominance is a hypocrite.

If you live in a region where not enough people play Melee for there to be tournaments then your only choice is to choose between leaving competitive Smash entirely or playing Brawl.

8 ) Guess what? You need to read moar. You're playing both games? And you're attempting to do so on a regular basis? Then this isn't even directed at you.

Really? It's not directed at me? You didn't specifically say

A problem arises, however, when a Brawl-playing Melee supporter complains about the sorry state of Melee. This person, at a base level, is the true reason that Melee is on the decline.

See, I fit the first sentence of that. I am a Brawl-playing person who supports Melee. I am ENTIRELY not to blame for the reason that Melee is on the decline.

9 ) Let me tell you something. You have EVERY RIGHT to be mad at Brawl for sucking. You have NO RIGHT to blame Brawl for Melee's problems. I never once in my OP said you can't be mad at Brawl for sucking, if you think it sucks.

You never once said in your OP I can't be mad at Brawl for sucking?

People like our dear coreygames have no reason, nor any right, to be mad at Brawl or Brawlers.

Hmm...well last I checked, I AM a person. You clearly stated that people, with the example of the person coreygames being given, are not allowed to be mad at Brawl. You had a blanket statement stating that no one is allowed to be mad at Brawl for any reason.

I said you have no right placing blame for Melee's poor tournament showing lately squarely on Brawl's shoulders. Brawl had an effect, sure, and no one has denied that, but to say that the mere existence of Brawl somehow hurts Melee is ridiculous. I have already outlined why, so I won't repeat myself. Oh, but I will post this:

No one has denied that Brawl has had an effect to reduce the size of Melee's tournaments? LOOK AT THIS THREAD'S TITLE! You are CLEARLY denying that Brawl has had any negative effect on the size of Melee tournaments.

I'll elaborate just for you, because you seem to have a problem with reading the thread and knowing what you're talking about before posting.

Actually I was hungry after I finished posting and went to get food. I came back and saw Skler had a post here and noticed there was something I forgot to respond to. Instead of wasting my time editing my post and refuting what you said I decided not to as Skler did a perfectly good job in doing so.

The problem with your analogies is they're wrong.

If I really, really wanted to, I could prove to you that Melee's current state is all God's fault because if he never created the universe then *long line of causation* ..., which means that Sakurai would have never created Brawl and Brawl would have never stolen Melee players. See, I'd be right (if you believe in such things, technically we WOULDN'T have this problem if the universe didn't exist), but it's such a stretch that I'd be considered BS'ing you. There is a reason that, in my above quoted examples from post 4, I wouldn't be held accountable for the crime committed in front of me that I didn't take action to stop. Technically, yes, my actions enabled the crime, but I am second order causation. I'm removed from the actual event, the actual crime, so the crime, though I took no action to stop it, isn't directly my fault. The robber (assuming the crime is a robbery) receives the blame and consequences because he is the first order causation; his actions DIRECTLY caused the crime.

If the universe never existed then Melee could never have existed and therefore this entire argument wouldn't exist. Trying to bring up an elaborate analogy that is completely unrelated for the sake of trying to prove that you can say "Hey look, I just proved something completely unrelated is to blame!" is stupid because Brawl clearly is related to Melee and clearly has had a direct effect on the Melee tournament scene. Just as the robber DIRECTLY caused the crime, Brawl has DIRECTLY caused a negative effect.

Let's take a look at coreygames' tournament again. Yes, the existence of a rival tournament DID have an impact on coreygames' attendance... but not directly. The mere existence of the tournament did not mean that, by default, coreygames' tournament would fail. The Brawl tournament is a second order causation, and cannot be held responsible for coreygames' failed tournament. The players, however, made a conscious decision not to go to coreygames' tournament. Their decisions had a direct effect on the tournament attendance rate because the decision not to go by the players meant that they would not be bolstering the attendance rate, thus directly causing the tournament to fail. THIS is what you fail to realize, and what you have failed to refute.

This is bad logic. Previously you said that the robber is first order causation and that if you weren't there at all the robbery would still have happened. Of course if you removed the robber, there would have been no robbery. THAT logic can be applied to this. If you removed the Brawl tournament or the existence of Brawl the Melee tournament would not have failed.

 

[notftomearth7]

I believe that Brawl has, as other posters have said, destroyed Melee's reputation in the competitive gaming world. But I knew when I played Brawl for the first time that this would happen. For you see, one game in a series that is "user-friendly" out of several competitive style games, it will kill the reputation. Soul Calibur series is a great example. When SC2 came out, slowly the game climbed the ranks of competitive games everywhere, I had even seen some tournaments in my town (which is rather small) and several years later SC3 came out and I began to see a sharp decline in tournaments because the competitive edge of that series had been completely wiped away.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'll deal with teh_spamerer when my boss isn't looking over my shoulder.

 

[DoH]

You guys do realize that this is the same guy who attempts to start an 'items standard play' sector of tournaments, right? Trying to reason with him is fruitless.

 

[Grunt]

You guys do realize that this is the same guy who attempts to start an 'items standard play' sector of tournaments, right? Trying to reason with him is fruitless.

You're right.
I think this thread should end on a universal, agreeable note.

It's all M2K's fault.

 

[KosukeKGA]

It's all M2K's fault.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

Wrath, I do not spam. I actually avoid using his tornado unless its needed. Thats just not me.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Wrath, I do not spam. I actually avoid using his tornado unless its needed. Thats just not me.

Okay. You are trolling. Or to a lesser extent, being annoying.

You are not a good player (You think Lucas and Ness are good characters and you don't spam in Brawl.) and you will not be widely known by the community. Please just be quiet.
---
Let this silliness continue.

 

[Reaver197]

I do not spam.

Your posting history seems to suggest otherwise.

 

[Proud_Smash_N00b]

If you removed the Brawl tournament or the existence of Brawl the Melee tournament would not have failed.

QFT
Brawl's existence is the reason for Melee's problems, so people have a right and a reason to bash on Brawl.
Brawl is the reason why Melee vets play Brawl for money.
Brawl is why not alot of people go to Melee tourneys.
Brawl is why this community is divided into two hostile sides.

Don't try to let Brawl get away with doing irreparable damage to Melee, the Smash Community, and Smash itself.

 

[swordgard]

I believe jack keiser is missing the point over here, many people switched from melee to brawl with the hope that brawl would actually somehow change into a competitive game, but now that everyone realized that the game was made not only not on a competitive basis but in the whole goal of being agaisnt it, we start to realize its limitations/imbalances. Now not only most people moved from melee into brawl, but with masses of new players being clearly drawn too into it, it makes it alot harder for the community to revert back to its old and clearly better game that is melee(no pun intended). I have seen many tournaments lately being made melee only, as if people started reconverting themselves, however this comes at the painfully price of dividing gameplay into 2 as well as dividing the community, which not only hurts melee but also brawl. Brawl is not a successfull legacy for melee, henceforth, we have the right to be mad at it for hurting the community process, for as far as i know, even after 7 years of melee the metagame wasnt stale. However, brawls metagame already is, this was never planned to be a balanced fighting game, just a party one.

Sadly blizzard started doing the same thing with starcraft 2, noobifying it(making it more casual friendly) and the same will happen to it probably.

And while i may not agree with your opinions jack, i still respect them./

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

I am going to say this: Ness/lucas can be good. and I d not spam, do NOT say I'm not a good player. You have no freaking proof, I'm a serious person. Very serious.

 

[KosukeKGA]

I am going to say this: Ness/lucas can be good. and I d not spam, do NOT say I'm not a good player. You have no freaking proof, I'm a serious person. Very serious.

I'm a serious person too. Very serious. And, while I may have no proof, I'm seriously 99.9% sure everyone here would agree you are not that good. A bit player of the masses who just started playing recently. Don't think you're the best because you dominate your little circle of friends...Seriously.

Also, Marth chaingrab, gg.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I am going to say this: Ness/lucas can be good. and I d not spam, do NOT say I'm not a good player. You have no freaking proof, I'm a serious person. Very serious.

Your posts make it blatantly obvious that you don't know anything about this game.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

Your "your not known by the smash community, so be quite" statement makes me laugh. I have the right to speak here. Gimpyfish, KEN, simna...they all started out small like everyone. Anyone can be a professional if they try. You people fail to see it. Spamming also means your a weak, easily countered, *******. This is why I focus on mind games. Lucas and Ness are good, if its about the Tier list, then lemme say this: Tiers r 4 queers. Don't call me a troll. Don't call be a pathetic player. Then were all cool. Lucas/ness are good if you understand them: Meta can be used in different ways: and, Tiers do not affect the strong.

 

[KosukeKGA]

^ You're absolutely right. Dang, I'm sorry.

I will excuse myself from this thread now out of embarrassment.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

Jesus christ. You people will see one day. I've been playing since march 9th, also, Marth chaingrab IS A HUGE FREAKING WEAKNESS. I apologize about forgetting the ****ed move.

 

[Tee ay eye]

so, explain how I failed. Otherwise your part of that 89% ******* part.

The fact that you claim to have mastered Ness in Melee. First of all, Ness sucks. Period. I'm going to assume you're not Simna, who isn't that great of a player either, yet is still the best Ness in the world.

Your "your not known by the smash community, so be quite" statement makes me laugh. I have the right to speak here. Gimpyfish, KEN, simna...they all started out small like everyone. Anyone can be a professional if they try. You people fail to see it. Spamming also means your a weak, easily countered, *******. This is why I focus on mind games. Lucas and Ness are good, if its about the Tier list, then lemme say this: Tiers r 4 queers. Don't call me a troll. Don't call be a pathetic player. Then were all cool. Lucas/ness are good if you understand them: Meta can be used in different ways: and, Tiers do not affect the strong.

Okay. It doesn't matter if you're going to be a pro in the future. If you are, congratulations. But right now, you're still in the STARTING SMALL phase. Also, tiers actually affect strong players even more. Pros are better at exploiting characters' strengths and weaknesses.

Also, the fact that you say "tiers are 4 queers" absolutely ends this argument. All the people that say that are ignorant fools that don't know anything about competitive smash. Their only backup for their argument is the fact that THEY (a casual player) can own all of their garbage *** friends with a character that's not high on the tier list. Tiers are real, but they don't apply on a casual level of play.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

...well.....I've always seen simna as a very good player. Many do, many don't. Also, I am good with ness, not mastered, I corrected that. Sorry. Ness has been my main in Melee from the start, so obviously I have a bit of skill with him.

 

[Falconv1.0]

lol Gimpyfish started out small. And didn't claim to be awesome. Moron.

 

[Vulcan55]

I wouldn't go about claiming how good you are until we see some proof.
And by proof I mean go to tourneys, not 3-stocking a CPU.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

Well, let us stop arguing. I'm just trying to make a few points, yes, I made myself sound like an idiotic troll, but I heavily apologize. I am a good player, I just don't show it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Well, let us stop arguing. I'm just trying to make a few points, yes, I made myself sound like an idiotic troll, but I heavily apologize. I am a good player, I just don't show it.

Go hang yourself.

 

[swordgard]

Agree totally with you tee, proof is zelgadis beat simna, zelgadis while being a good player, isnt known for being a top notch one, yet simna, the best ness in the world got beat by him. Tiers do matter, they actually show that you can lose while being actually probably more skilled than someone else, however, what counts is who wins or lose, tiers arent that important, as long as they dont make or break the game, which is the case for brawl, where there is only 1 tier worth playing, meta/snake one, however in melee you could actually put up a fight with others especially since most of the top tiers had some bad cg going agaisnt em by some of lower tiers, aka g&w vs fox/falco.

And the-dark-zero, not everyone can be a pro, everyone has limits, im pretty sure you fail to see how bad of a player you can be, no pun intended, but if you limit yourself, dont go and say other players are weak for using what YOU cant counter/dont wanna do. If spamming is for people who cant counter, what stops you from countering spamming >.>

And you cant make statements like im a good player i just dont show it, no jhons, if your good, you wouldnt have to make some.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

The CPU's suck. I tend to play against my friends. I went to a couple of Melee tournies and was utterly obliterated, but eh. Also, Not claiming to be awesome. >_>

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

*pulls out death note and writes falcons name in it* Was that needed? Really now, thats a little harsh.

 

[Reaver197]

I am a good player, I just don't show it.

Seriously, guys, seriously. He's good on the inside. He doesn't have to show it in any match or video. He just is. On the inside.

*pulls out death note

Ok, now you crossed the line.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Thank you.

I have been saying this in nearly every Brawl/Melee debate thread, although most of the time it was ignored. I've always said that neither game is killing the other, in fact, I dare to quote myself: "Okay, maybe there's a decline in Melee tournaments. So... do something about it. And when I say "do something about it," I don't mean try to drive Brawl into the dust, because that will hurt all Smash... badly."

Really, the solution to this problem isn't trying to destroy Brawl.

 

[Falconv1.0]

The CPU's suck. I tend to play against my friends. I went to a couple of Melee tournies and was utterly obliterated, but eh. Also, Not claiming to be awesome. >_>

Uhm, no, if you're obliterated at tourneys, the competitive community refers to you as BAD or HORRID or TERRIBLE.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

Swordgard, you made a good point. I will get better at the game, which is tough with half of smashboards on my ***... How did I cross the line by pulling out Death Note? Man, I loved that anime....

 

[Vulcan55]

Thank you.

I have been saying this in nearly every Brawl/Melee debate thread, although most of the time it was ignored. I've always said that neither game is killing the other, in fact, I dare to quote myself: "Okay, maybe there's a decline in Melee tournaments. So... do something about it. And when I say "do something about it," I don't mean try to drive Brawl into the dust, because that will hurt all Smash... badly."

Really, the solution to this problem isn't trying to destroy Brawl.

You're an idiot for thinking that we are trying to destroy Brawl.
You are also an idiot for thinking Brawl had no affect on the Melee community's diminishment.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Swordgard, you made a good point. I will get better at the game, which is tough with half of smashboards on my ***...

^Your fault, not ours.

^_^

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

very true. Trying to make up for what I said a while ago. Those tournies were a long time ago when I was jut starting Melee: I got so pissed after 2 I never went to a tourny again.

 

[swordgard]

Swordgard, you made a good point. I will get better at the game, which is tough with half of smashboards on my ***... How did I cross the line by pulling out Death Note? Man, I loved that anime....

First step toward success is actually admitting our own errors. Btw, death note rocks hell yeah.

As for the op, i guess theres no point arguing with someone who does not even admit the possibility that he is wrong. I really hate it when people just wont see their own contradictions >.>