The Empoleon's Nair

[Raimundo]

The way I see it at the moment, most people that use Empoleon's Nair useless. Now that I have started getting more into the metagames business, I've started to look into more uses for Nair.

The Nair > Grab​

I use this the most, so I guess it would only be wise if I know what I'm talking about. With this tactic at low %'s ranging from 0% - 60% depending on the character. Since this method is almost self-explanatory, or should be, I'm just going to provide a character list of testing I did recently.

Nair > Grab Character List *​

--------------- 0% ~ 44%
--------------- 0% ~ 41%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%
--------------- 0% ~ 52%
--------------- 0% ~ 55%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%
--------------- 0% ~ 48%
--------------- 0% ~ 50%
--------------- 0% ~ 52%
--------------- 0% ~ 36%
:shiek: --------------- 0% ~ 41%
--------------- 0% ~ 52%
--------------- 0% ~ 42%
--------------- 0% ~ 34%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%
--------------- 0% ~ 42%
** --------------- 0% ~ 39%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%
--------------- 0% ~ 34%
--------------- 0% ~ 38%
--------------- 0% ~ 51%
--------------- 0% ~ 38%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%
--------------- 0% ~ 46%
--------------- 0% ~ 48%
--------------- 0% ~ 49%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%
--------------- 0% ~ 26%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%
--------------- 0% ~ 43%
--------------- 0% ~ 45%
--------------- 0% ~ 36%
--------------- 0% ~ 36%
--------------- 0% ~ 47%
--------------- 0% ~ 39%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%
--------------- 0% ~ 39%
--------------- 0% ~ 48%
--------------- 0% ~ 40%

*Done with approximate testing from lvl 3 CPUs on Training. With correct DI, this can be lowered to a certain degree.
**Without Nana​

The Nair > Aerial​

This method is self-explanatory so there will be no chart to see what %'s end the possibility to do this. The Nair > Fair IMO is more than likely be used to build more damage than a single Bthrow and can gain far more knockback. To me, when I do this, this sets me up almost always to be proceded by an attempt Wall of Pain (if at the edge.) The only seen problem with this is that if you don't mindgame into the Nair, this is almost always punished with a grab/smash. The Nair > Nair is just a quicker roundup combo that tends to be quick after the landed Nair. Using this method gets you a quick 24%, but only gets you soo far than what you would expect in terms of damage.

 

[Gates]

*Done[...]on Training.[/RIGHT]

Here's your problem.

Never use training mode when testing for percents. The knockback and damage is very different from Versus mode.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Also...do you mean by fast-falling the neutral > grab? That's what I imagined and that's the one that works, unless if not fastfalling the neutral air works too...

 

[Raimundo]

Also...do you mean by fast-falling the neutral > grab? That's what I imagined and that's the one that works, unless if not fastfalling the neutral air works too...

Both fastfalling and just Nair'ing works. It all just depends on whether or not your opponent Di's away from you or just takes the grab. And by grab, I mean a dashing grab.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

I used to do this, but landing a Nair requires you to be on top of your opponent, somewhere I really don't like to be. Also, are you referring to a sweetspotted or sourspotted Nair? I used the latter, only because the former seemed a bit iffy to do consistantly.

On a less serious note, if you scream "NAIR" while performing a Nair.....just do it, preferably in front of others.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Both fastfalling and just Nair'ing works. It all just depends on whether or not your opponent Di's away from you or just takes the grab. And by grab, I mean a dashing grab.

Oh, yeah dashing grab will catch them off guard, but it's not a guarenteed combo. Nice job with the list, just make sure to get percents from versus mode.

 

[RATED]

Oh, yeah dashing grab will catch them off guard, but it's not a guarenteed combo. Nice job with the list, just make sure to get percents from versus mode.

the % is like 6 or 7 of diference u kill faster on training so maybe this work that way.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Also...do you mean by fast-falling the neutral > grab? That's what I imagined and that's the one that works, unless if not fastfalling the neutral air works too...

I've done this before on a Fox when he was at low %, he wasnt knocked back far enough out of D3's grab range. So after my D3 got out of a FF Nair animation delay, i immediately grabbed him. Didnt dash grab.

 

[Vayseth]

Here's your problem.

Never use training mode when testing for percents. The knockback and damage is very different from Versus mode.

Lemme clear this up.

The only thing that is changed is training mode (and all 1P modes, if I recall correctly) do not factor in damage decay. That's all.

So, your data is correct if you assume your nair is fresh.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Lol I've always used Nair to Grab.

I even mentioned it to Beefy couple months ago on AiM but he never learned.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Lol I've always used Nair to Grab.

I even mentioned it to Beefy couple months ago on AiM but he never learned.

LOL what a showoff, he knows that I've been doing it since forever. Load of boloney.

 

[Raimundo]

Lol I've always used Nair to Grab.

I even mentioned it to Beefy couple months ago on AiM but he never learned.

But now I've brought it into everyone's attention =D

 

[Raimundo]

Lemme clear this up.

The only thing that is changed is training mode (and all 1P modes, if I recall correctly) do not factor in damage decay. That's all.

So, your data is correct if you assume your nair is fresh.

A Nair is 12% when fresh right? If so, then all of the data is correct

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Beef you need to calm down srsly. xD

 

[SuSa]

Lemme clear this up.

The only thing that is changed is training mode (and all 1P modes, if I recall correctly) do not factor in damage decay. That's all.

So, your data is correct if you assume your nair is fresh.

IIRC Training mode and 1P modes are .95 of versus mode.

Jigglypuff boards seem to know a lot about this.

 

[Commander_Beef]

A Nair is 12% when fresh right? If so, then all of the data is correct

That's correct young one. No homo.

Beef you need to calm down srsly. xD

Grrr...alright you got me there. *calms down*

 

[sMexy-Blu]

FF Nair offstage vs Diddy.

DO IT.

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

Don't do it! It's a lie!!!

 

[CRASHiC]

Wouldn't they just do that side b jump thing on us?

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

It depends, the face hump doesn't have that much of a vertical grab range. It is best straight ahead of Diddy. If you nair from the top or diagonal to Diddy, it may not work. Also Nair will probably out prioritize it, the kick is what has all the priority.

 

[Buuman]

I normally fast fall nairs on people to hit with the weak part, which pops them up just a bit above me for an easy up tilt all the time. I do this at low percents, so that the up tilt doesn't knock them that far up, and I usually follow this up with a pivot grab before they hit the ground, although they could jump in some cases.

I feel that nairing while falling on someone to grab is impractical.
1. Theres decent lag if you don't cancel the nair
2. What happens when they shield the nair? A shield grab
3. They can footstool you after you nair them
4. Most characters have a quick aerial they can hit you in the face with before you can grab

Nair > grab isn't useful. Maybe situational, but not practical at all. Although the nair is a move that we all could incorporate more for our air dodging reading when someones coming back to the stage and they Fast fall air dodge into us. The nair is useful for that. Also if someone is hanging on the edge, and as dedede you're trying to hit them when there incinvibility runs out, jump, nair, jump, nair, jump nair...you'll hit them whether they like it or not because the hitbox stays out so long.

Fact: Fresh nair does 12% weak nair does 7%

 

[SuSa]

It's useful, just situational, and it is practical.

I think Raimundo's the only D3 I've played that's beaten me in all 92 of my matches? .... Let's see:

8 losses:
1 D3 (Rai)
5 Olimars (Olimar can go **** himself)
1 Yoshi/Mario (lolwut, I don't even know what happened here)
1 ROB (lucky *******, I SD'd twice)

He's also the only D3 to destroy me in friendlies (about 1/2 the time. He has his moments.... lol)

Rather then theorycraft and feel it's useless, try it. Also I think at certain %'s you guys have frame advantage by enough that you can grab without being hit in the face.

I swear, it's like the Link boards up in here.

Even if you don't use it 100% of the time, it doesn't mean it's not there and that doesn't mean its useless. This is probably one reason why D3's metagame is so stale. If it's new/looked over ages ago - it must be bad.

 

[CRASHiC]

I think its more like the ZSS samus boards, just the male version.
They are b!tches.
We are d!cks

 

[SuSa]

They at least accept new things and test them extensively before saying something.

It doesn't hurt to try it out in friendlies. <_<

 

[CRASHiC]

Hahaha. No they don't. Someone said, Hey, ZSS has a chain grab, they all go, GTFO N00B.
I don't post on there because of the board.

 

[SuSa]

Someone revisited it and posted data and now its accepted.

PS: You guys inspired me to make a thread in tactical.

PSS:
Nair is decent.

 

[Nefarious B]

CRASHiC always rages against the ZSS boards for w/e reason.

It's in people's nature to be scepticle if someone finds a new CG a year after launch. We test our **** and see if it can be used, and in all of our recent discoveries we have found good uses for them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you're butt hurt because someone on our boards said something, give it up, cause this is like the third time I've randomly run across you trashing our forum, which IMO is one of the best and most productive ones on this site.

 

[o-Serin-o]

I feel that nairing while falling on someone to grab is impractical.
1. Theres decent lag if you don't cancel the nair
2. What happens when they shield the nair? A shield grab
3. They can footstool you after you nair them
4. Most characters have a quick aerial they can hit you in the face with before you can grab

Nair > grab isn't useful. Maybe situational, but not practical at all.

If your going to come in a criticize something before considering all possibilities, then don't say anything and just tell others it will never work avoid using it. Nair > grab is useful in most all situations IF you know what you are doing. And considering that I have used this for quite a long time gives me somewhat of the technical experience to do so and leave a post about. Footstooling us wont do **** to us if we haven't jumped (which I most likely will not) and getting us shieldgrabbed can be easily avoided by just jump mindgaming them into getting hit. If it should have to hit and they attemppt to attack us, shieldgrab them.

We've grabbed them! Now to follow up with a CG (or in my case, Bthrow, since I hardly ever CG).

 

[xXFrosTXx]

Dude, I don''t think this has anything to do with D3's Nair

 

[o-Serin-o]

It relate to how Nair is useful.

 

[lain]

This is ********.

 

[o-Serin-o]

No u lain.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Nair is baaaaaaad.

Anyone can predict and hit you with an Utilt/Usmash cause of its super low priority.

 

[hdrevolution123]

If someone hasn't said this, in training mode attacks don't degenerate in knockback and damage so it getting results from training mode may be a bit unreliable as reference for people who'd like to use this in competitive brawls

 

[lain]

Lol I've always used Nair to Grab.

I even mentioned it to Beefy couple months ago on AiM but he never learned.

Nair is baaaaaaad.

Anyone can predict and hit you with an Utilt/Usmash cause of its super low priority.

Wait just a darn second here..

 

[T3h Albino]

LOLOLOLOLOL
scandallllllll
<3 LAIN

 

[Miles.]

I Nair > grab when the oppurtunity presents itself(glad to see I am not the only one that does this) . It is a nice mix up. I like your thoughts on Nair > Fair for racking damage.