The DK Match Up Thread.

[Micaelis]

I find that the Sonic match-up is more about noticing patterns and predicting than anything else. DK has the tools to shut down Sonic (DownB, UpB, Dtilt, Ftilt, Uair, Bair) but what really gets a DK in this match-up are the mind-games that Sonics play.

I've personally played against Tenki and Umby (two really good Sonics) in brackets before and if you don't pick up their fighting style patterns and jukes, you're going no where fast. You're to slow.

It seems to me that good Sonics like to Dash in and Out, trying to make you whiff an attack so that they can punish you. Their Dash attack is probably the easiest move to punish with in the game and is almost a guaranteed 6% if used properly (aka don't try to punish this against a good Sonic). If you play defensive and try to spot dodge, they'll pivot grab or just punish the dodge with a grab or attack. If you get hit by a spin then you're going to take lots of damage. While in the air Sonics will try to bait the AD to Bair or Uair. Good Sonics are all about punishing/adapting so you MUST stay one step ahead of them.

What to Do: Don't fall into a routine. Keep moving like crifer said. Don't be a sitting duck; that limits your options. Use RARs, retreating Bairs, space and trap them with DownB, predict their spins and UpB them. Try not to get above them and in return try to get them above you. Your Uair and Bair demolish Sonic when spaced/timed right. Get them off the stage and keep them there. Retreat one moment then get in their face the next.

DK isn't that slow of a character. So in this match-up don't play him like he is. Don't be slow.

 

[Cable]

Very interesting information from everyone good job Will and Micaelis with there essays on the MU. Im going to practice it more im not really good against sonic only if i use Diddy

 

[DKwill]

Just came back from NJ, happy to say that I knew that match-up as well as I thought. I ended up 2-0ing Kai in the $5 MM and got him to admit that my DK was really hard to fight. I just claimed match-up knowledge thanks to playing Wes all night a few nights before =)

Edit: I also found out several new things after playing Kai. While Sonic is using spin dash, he can jump early to avoid DK's down b and use homing attack to punish him. You can try to bait this by only using down b once, then shielding. When you shield Sonic's homing attack and he bounces off the top of your shield, you can almost always full hop u-air to punish. Just make sure he doesn't read this the next time, because Sonic can cancel his spin dash into a shield grab right in front of you.

In addition, there is a variation of Sonic's spin attack that hits you, and then allows Sonic to footstool DK into a regular get up position. If Sonic succeeds in hitting you with this technique, he can retreat and hit you with another spin dash into footstool again, recursively. I'm not entirely sure if this combo is inescapable once it begins, but I believe you would be able to use an up-b at some point to knock Sonic away after the spin dash and before the footstool. Also, you may be able to use your double jump to escape at some point, though I don't exactly remember how I got out of it aside from just reacting to it.

Any info on this?

 

[Micaelis]

My finals are this week but after this week I have absolutely nothing to do. I kind of want to contribute more to the DK forums if possible and I'm willing to take over the management of this thread or at least an attempt to help steer it in a good direction if possible.

I'm going to take the time to peruse through the thread at what everyone's said and try to write well detailed and color coded match-up summaries for what's been said already. I'll throw in my own input if I have any and PM it to the big name DKs and get them to proof-read and make sure everything is in order and hopefully we can get a major update on this thread before the end of the month.

My finals aren't done until Friday so I won't be starting to work on it until then. So don't expect much until two weeks or so.

Also if anyone has a suggestion (and I mean an actual rough outline or so) on what order we should discuss people, PM it to me. Otherwise I'll make my own based off how frequent/difficult the match-up is.

Thanks for reading my TL2R posts.

EDIT: Oh and in case you don't know me, my name is Michael (Micaelis is latin for Michael) and I live in Georgia and currently attend Georgia Tech as a Computer Engineer. I recently started playing Competitive Brawl (first time being competitive in any game) and my only main is DK now. No subs for me (need to fix my sig). After about three months of going to tournaments I managed to land myself on the GA PR as sixth place. The PR is in flux right now so it might not be a great accomplishment but I was happy with the placing since I'm so new. I'm quickly getting more experience in competitive play and really feel like I'm becoming worthy of my PR spot if not more. So hopefully you'll see good things from me in the future.

 

[crifer]

good micaelis.
just look at other match up threads and get inspired by their order and look, plz.

 

[Chaosgriffin]

In addition, there is a variation of Sonic's spin attack that hits you, and then allows Sonic to footstool DK into a regular get up position. If Sonic succeeds in hitting you with this technique, he can retreat and hit you with another spin dash into footstool again, recursively. I'm not entirely sure if this combo is inescapable once it begins, but I believe you would be able to use an up-b at some point to knock Sonic away after the spin dash and before the footstool. Also, you may be able to use your double jump to escape at some point, though I don't exactly remember how I got out of it aside from just reacting to it.

Any info on this?

What did you do to get out of it?

 

[DKwill]

What did you do to get out of it?

It may have been a combination of him not carrying out the technique fast enough to keep me trapped in it, or that you have time to spot dodge. I don't believe it's a true combo, but if Sonic can catch you when you are off guard and don't react fast enough it'll work on you.

 

[Chaosgriffin]

I was looking at Wario boards and they just finished our match up, they came up with 65:35 wario favor. I think its a bit high.

 

[Donkey Bong]

I was looking at Wario boards and they just finished our match up, they came up with 65:35 wario favor. I think its a bit high.

well unfortunately its pretty much true.

with the dthrow CG, Wario can take DK from 30% to killing percents with his fsmash. it's not hard to master, i practiced it for like one minute and could pull it off succesfully. the "dont get grabbed philosophy" doesnt really work as well in this matchup due to Wario's speed, mobility and playstyle. IMO, its easier for Wario to grab DK than for D3 to grab DK.

DK's weight doesnt carry as much weight () in this MU like in some others. Wario is a heavy mofo, 8th heaviest in game i believe. He can kill us earlier than we can kill him (half charged Waft).

Even if he doesnt do the CG shenanigans, he's got Bite, which pretty much ***** DK's entire moveset with the exception of downb (but most Warios bite when they're airborne).

one thing thats good about the MU is that if we can get Wario offstage, his recovery is super predictable. but its pretty hard to punish because its so **** good. if he bikes before you're close enough to do something, he's getting back onstage.

 

[daisho]

He is gimpable we outrange him and a grab is a guaranteed 20... 30 if we have a punch. We can also grab him a for a kill if hes at like 70-90 depending where he is on the stage.

He has grab setups, chaingrab, bite and waft.

I think it's even and there is no it is 65-35

 

[Luigi player]

Well I don't think it's that bad for DK. More like 40:60 <.<

You have to consider Warios range... and DKs range. Even if they trade hits, it's better for DK, and if the DK isn't standing in his shield so Wario can bite him, but moving around the stage while using retreating aerials it isn't that easy for Wario to grab/bite DK.

And if DK manages to grab Wario he's dead if he has more than 80 %.

 

[Donkey Bong]

the problem though, is that due to Wario's build as a character (fast aerial mobility, fast moves) he doesnt need range. if Wario had better range, he'd be broken. another problem is that DK's moveset is slightly on the laggy side, even his fast moves like ftilt, utilt and dtilt. Wario can easily bait any of these moves and weave in for the punish.

nair is also too good. it will almost always poke, its super fast and has super high priority.

 

[Luigi player]

the problem though, is that due to Wario's build as a character (fast aerial mobility, fast moves) he doesnt need range. if Wario had better range, he'd be broken. another problem is that DK's moveset is slightly on the laggy side, even his fast moves like ftilt, utilt and dtilt. Wario can easily bait any of these moves and weave in for the punish.

nair is also too good. it will almost always poke, its super fast and has super high priority.

Yeah I know the matchup from Warios perspective... it's really difficult for Wario if the DK is using retreating bairs and doesn't let himself get grabbed. DK should be in the air and around platforms nearly all the time...

 

[Veggi]

nair is also too good. it will almost always poke, its super fast and has super high priority.

For a minute, I thought you were talking about DK's nair.

 

[daisho]

Play defensive. It is also hard for wario to kill you. Only good KO move is Uair and if you watch out its not so hard to avoid. Ftilt and FSmash will end up killing you but not until a decently high percentage if you're smart about it.

 

[Luigi player]

Play defensive. It is also hard for wario to kill you. Only good KO move is Uair and if you watch out its not so hard to avoid. Ftilt and FSmash will end up killing you but not until a decently high percentage if you're smart about it.

And fsmash is soo punishable :/

Warios nair doesn't really have good priority... well at least not against MK :/

 

[Donkey Bong]

Play defensive.

DK is the reason i stopped playing defensive

edit: Wario's fsmash is really punishable but the only reason a Wario would be doing a fsmash is if its OoS or he's superarmoring through another hit.

also, nobody's nair has high priority compared to MK

 

[Ragnar0k]

Just bair and uair him out of the air, and keep your distance on the ground. Honestly as long as you don't let Wario swarm you it's not bad at all. If you just lock yourself on the ground in your shield you give the Wario complete control. Wario can't really compete with your aerials so just use those.

 

[crifer]

I think it´s 60:40 wario.

I mostly play online so I have serious problems with punishing fsmash, dodge combinations.

Does the hitbox of wario´s fsmash stay out for a while? Or can I grab him asap, if I perfect sheild it?

 

[Ragnar0k]

It's easily shield grabbed, especially from a perfect. Once you block a single hitbox move the hitbox is canceled so you can grab. This is most noticable on something like link's up b, where if you shield it near the beginning you can shield drop and stand inside his sword spin. lol

 

[ardirok]

Dair, bite and the chaingrab are very annoying.

But I think it is not worse than the tornado spam match up, so I think it´s 60/40

 

[Ripple]

someone please take control of this and PM me everytime I need to copy/paste an update

 

[daisho]

DK is the reason i stopped playing defensive

edit: Wario's fsmash is really punishable but the only reason a Wario would be doing a fsmash is if its OoS or he's superarmoring through another hit.

also, nobody's nair has high priority compared to MK

Honestly if you don't want to play defensive you should stop playing this game and AT LEAST play MK.

 

[Donkey Bong]

MK doesnt live forever, hes not lolzy like the monkey, and hes just doesnt get awesome kills with a giant fist. i'll stick to the gorilla, thank you very much

 

[crifer]

ripple, where the heII are you man???

stop real life man.

So where would you counter pick a Samus?
usually I thought Brinstar would be good, bc it negates her spacing game and projectiles.

Usually JJ is my favourite, but in the last time I was too many times gayed by camping.

 

[Tujex]

Depending on where I'm playing, and if it's allowed...I go LM versus Samus.

 

[Ragnar0k]

When in doubt, yoshi's.

 

[Tujex]

I had a guy ban Yoshi's at a tourney because I play DK, lmao!

But yeah, Rag's right on that one.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Everyone that knows me bans yoshi's against me now.

 

[ZxChrono]

I rather play on delfino but thats just me. I feel more comfortable there but yoshi's comes after that.

 

[crifer]

So yoshi´s? could work.

delfino... idk ^^against samus?

what do you thin about brinstar and jungle japes against samus??

The only problem I see with brinstar is that you could be juggled by her uair.

 

[Ragnar0k]

You could be juggled by her uair on any stage.

 

[Chaosgriffin]

You just have to make sure you SDI to the left or right to get out of her uair so you don't get juggled.

 

[ZxChrono]

i play ALSTR a lot, probably best samus in So Cal. just play stages you are comfortable on. the only stage i would recommend NOT going to is battlefield because the platforms helps samus out with her upb. same goes for delfino but that stage is good for dk so not bad really. even if you get juggled who cares? you most likely wont die until around 200% unless you mind game yourself into getting spiked off stage.

 

[Micaelis]

Hey everyone, I earlier said I was going to help update and rework the MU Thread this Winter and I kind of failed to finish but I have gotten a lot of the info from reading people's posts and I already have an idea for the best format we can do for the new one.

The Fox boards have probably the best organized lay out for their MU info and I've already PMed them about using it.

Also, instead of one single MU thread like this I think we should have a central MU thread that has the links to individual MU threads where a single character will be represented. I feel this is the best organization since a user can read both the synopsis and details we give in the summary and also read each player's posts pertaining to that individual character without getting the posts lost in a giant thread.

Everyone okay with me starting to do this on the boards here? And should we restart all characters so we have individual threads on each or do we start from where we... kind of left off? Let me know please!

 

[D0N]

I say Mike has a good idea. Everyone is always jumping back and forth between matchups anyway, with this it can be organized whether that happens or not. As far as starting over, it doesnt botther me either way. Maybe we should re-discuss those that have been done at the end if that's what is decided so we actually make some progress lol.

 

[crifer]

go for it.
Since I 2nd fox I´m used to the format.
I hope it will be updated every week. (fox boards are a little bit slow).

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Everyone that knows me bans yoshi's against me now.

heh, that's like me and jungle japes, I'll counterpick it on larry if need be.

if you're getting camped there, just upb a lot and mess with them on the ledges

also try out lylat, you can get away with cargo spikes there, and the platforms are great for dk. not much room to be camped either

 

[Ragnar0k]

Lylat is awesome.

 

[Big O]

Lylat is probably my favorite stage now. Maybe the tilting just doesn't bother me as much as everyone else I play lol.