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The DK Match Up Thread.

Donkey Bong

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
610
i had a friend who mained falco, heavy laser spam every match... i found that the best way to deal with it was a mix of powershielding and superkonging through it. SA paunch helps a lot too. the best thing about the matchup though, is getting falco offstage. SUPER predictable recovery.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
1,949
Location
ventura county CA
Yo how do you do against their falcos Sk's nd Larrys like have u ever beat them or at least taken them to one stock? Falco with alot of lasers is hard to approach. I honestly think i cant beat a falco at that lvl yet.....
I've never played sk. Only person on the vegas PR that I haven't played once

Larry I play with every week, it used to be about even, but just recently he started doing 0-death combos at random, so he usually wins either one stock low % or two stock high %. He says it's 60-40 falco adv cause of dk's weight/punch, so I'll take his word on that

on japes, I've played him in like 2 friendlies there, won one of them, lost the other, but this was back before his crazy combo shenanigans

also went there in a doubles game and my partner got ***** so i wound up losing pretty bad
 

ksizl4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,222
Location
NJ/NY
im actually surprised. you guys have these matchups down on the op basically 100 percent correctly. good stuff. u dont see that on the boards alot lol
 

crifer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,078
Location
Germany, Koblenz
For Falco, imo. (I want to make our summaries more detailed). sorry for bad grammar.

Falco
Strengths:
a) Lazorz and phantasm. The most spammable move in the entire game. usually falco´s use shdl, if they go for the kill, they will use shsl to boost smash. Usually it´s recommended to walk ps and then ftilt or (what I recommend) upB approach them. But watch out for his grab range, it´s really good, and it could be that they grab you out of upB. Another optione for approaching is dj bair´s combined with air dodges, can work. can fail. try it out for your self. phantasm can be difficult to punish, but you can watch out for patterns and try to punsh, grab or dsmash them out of it. The easiest was is to upB the illusion.

b) cg to spike or damage up to 70%
It will be your problem at the start of the match. While you try to get past the annoying lasers, they analyze your ppatterns and watch out to get the grab in. if they go for the spike you can try to get out with upB (but watch out that you don´t jump while pressing up), but this won´t work against decent falco´s. When he spikes you, jump with the analog stick back and the upB. if they try to egdehog wait a little bit with upB. If you´re not near the edge, they will go for the damge so watch out for dair to grab/nair/dacus. sideB can punish grab attempts but is risky.

c) priority Falco´s have suprising priority and good range, especially on bair which trades hits with yours. nothing much to say.

Weaknesses:

a) Weight
you kill him easily with punch, fsmash or usmash at 80 %. punch´s sa frames are a pretty good counter to shsl dacus., punch also can **** illussions onto the stage. He kills you pretty late, the earliest would be 150% by fsmash, 140% by usmash, fresh bair and dsmash (not sure)

b) range Other than lasers, we have more range in general, once inside of falco you can **** him pretty hard. phantasm could make it difficult to stay in range, but it´s managable.

c) recovery

you win offstage. His recovery is super predictable. He should be dead, if he uses firefox. illusion can be interrupted by bair dair or upB(!). try upB sa glitch against his recovery, can be a auto gimp. watch out for the spike properties of illusion.


Conclusion:
Against a spam happy falco, I would say it´s 55:45 for Falco. maximum 60:40.

go Yoshi island, Battlefield or norfair.

ban Final destination or Jungle Japes.
 

Micaelis

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 14, 2009
Messages
398
Location
Alpharetta, Georgia
NNID
MicaelisX
For Falco you need to stay in the medium range zone where DK is happy. To close is just asking for a jab->grab setup. If you find yourself in too close DK's jab is a good move to push Falco back into a favorable position for you and it's fast. I also find forcing Falco into the air to be easier to deal with if you space Bair and/or bait the AD to Bair or Uair (preferably Uair to reset situation). Careful of the priority on Dair/Bair from Falco.

DownB/UpB really punishes Falco once you get in range for it. A lot of Falcos love abusing their good Spot Dodge frame data but nothing DownB or UpB can't handle. Also abuse the Dtilt->DownB setup here.

When off stage, learn to pivot grab the edge in case you can get a gimp, otherwise a single jab at the right time can send Falco straight downwards past the edge and forces him to Firefox which is extremely punishable/gimpable. However, if your timing isn't good then UpB covers it almost just as well but he can SDI out the top and over you instead.

Wonderful CP stage imo is Castle Seige. Can't get enough of it when I'm against a Falco. Use the dipped ground, platforms, statues, and tilting ground along with the walk-off side to really shut down Falco's camp game (can UpB a lot of the times out of Chain Grab on the tilting ground. CAREFUL for edge hogs or punish though).

Best neutral is Yoshi's imo. He's forced to SHSL if the platform is tilted to him (acts as a head high shield). Plus you have the invincibility glitch here but it's only really useful if he's for some reason near the ledge and not trying to camp you. It does however close the gap a bit when getting off the ledge as long as he doesn't just Phantasm to reset.

Things to Watch Out For:
Silent Laser->Boost Smash. Number one killing method after around 140%.
Chain-Grab 0-52% or so to Dair, to Dair after you try to DJ and UpB. DI away from the stage to prevent getting hit by the second Dair.
Camping with SHDL->Phantasm to reset position.
Dair and Side-B spike properties. Don't be predictable when recovering.

What To Do:
SHAD and PS your way in, use platforms, get inside medium range zone.
Use Dtilt, DownB, UpB, Ftilt to wrack up the damage on Falco.
Watch camping patterns, LEARN and punish.

Good Skills To Know:
Pivot Grabbing Ledge
Short Hop Air Dodging and Power Shielding Timing
Dtilt->DownB
Timing SA Frames on Punch/UpB

Everything else in this match-up was covered above. Good luck on the match-up. I say 55-45, Falco's favor but probably put it down as 60-40. Once you know the match up it's not that bad. Just be patient; watch, learn, punish.

EDIT: Fixed my scrub laser comment. Forgot that they don't if you're using the invincibility glitch. And obviously they don't clank, whole 10% damage etc deal. Stupid me. Thanks Rag. Also added an extra warning about the two spikes.
 

Monkley6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2009
Messages
356
Anyone know if it's because of the transcendant priority? Would needles do the same thing?

<3 needles... when using them
 

Ragnar0k

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
3,422
Location
Skyrim
Yeah it's because of their transcendent priority. I don't know about needles though.

Against olimar just down b and up b a lot. Grab when he lands and down toss or back throw offstage, then proceed to bair and up b a lot.
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
Some things that can help people on the Diddy matchup:

I played around with bananas and tried some things.


Picking up banans:
Aerials: First I thought about how to pick up bananas if they are in front of you and Diddy is behind them. You could do a down B, but most of the time (at least when I do it) the Diddy will use side B or jump and use an aerial and you get hit. Soo... just pick them up with aerials. Nothing new I know... it's easier to pick them up if they are in front of you. You can sh bair or uair to catch a banana, and you can then even do another aerial while holding the banana. Although full jump dair or sh/fj fair could also be nice.
If you catch a banana with an aerial and it ends quick enough, then you can do another aerial (if it also ends quickly, you can do it over and over...).
If you wait too long, you will throw the banana, even if the aerial ends quickly.
If you double jump, you can't do another aerial, you will always throw the banana.
This works with DKs uair, bair and nair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU

DACUS: You can also use your (poor) DACUS to grab a banana on the ground and usmash at the same time. Maybe it will help sometime... (if the banana is in Diddys control he might think he can land on it safely, but you catch it and usmash him...) Though this is probably really sitational.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU#t=0m36s


Use your SA to get through bananas:
Another thing you can do is using your SA on the bananas. Especially if they are on the ground (because it's not always so easy to time it right when Diddy throws them).
Practise this.
You can use your grounded upB and giant punch on the bananas and you won't slip if you touch them during your SA. This probably helps a lot in the matchup if you have the timing down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU#t=0m44s


Throwing the banana:
Insta-throwing: Do you guys know about insta(nt)-throwing? If you catch a banana with an airdodge and press A in the first few frames you will catch the banana and throw it immediately. You throw them much quicker than if you would catch them with Z and then throw it as soon as possible. It's somewhat hard to do with DK so it probably needs some training.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU#t=1m3s

Momentum cancel: The item throw that ends the quickest is the dthrow for DK. If you have a banana in hand (or a peanut) and get hit and might die so you want to momentum cancel throw the banana DOWN to regain control (then DJ/ upB...).
If you're used doing bair it won't be much worse, because the item bthrow is the second fastest... although the dthrow is the best (because you also don't have to worry about which direction you have to press).

Glidetossing: I think DKs glidetoss is really bad. Even though it goes far you have so much lag before you can do anything again. Which most of the time get's you punished... and you can't really follow up with much. Maybe throwing the banana forward is somewhat okay. If the Diddy is behind you you could throw it back while moving away although I don't know how this would be useful other than racking up a few %... maybe the item dthrow can surprise the enemy (he might shield) and you can buffer a standing grab (in the other direction, if you are somewhat near to him). If you did the "pivot" grab you can dthrow the Diddy, but he won't have enough knockback to be thrown into the banana, maybe Diddys that don't know this will be scared and you can get in another hit/grab, I dunno.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU#t=2m2s


Grab releasing into a banana..
Chaingrabbing: I thought about some grab release stuff and it seems to work. If you have a banana in your control and it is on the ground and you manage to grab Diddy, cargo him and go to the banana. You have to face the same direction when you grabbed him or else he can somewhat control where he is released to avoid the banana. AND you aren't allowed to go as near to the banana as possible, because if he DIs away he will go past it. You can grab him again and go to the nana again, you can chaingrab him like this (he will always get 6 % damage if he gets released from the cargo).
Although if he doesn't have much % it probably won't work, because he'll be released too quickly.
This is best to do during mid %s (30-60?), and watch out, because the banana disappears quickly...
You can probably only do it 1-2 times. It's probably best to grab release him once and then pummel him and bthrow him or cargo uthrow/dthrow him away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU#t=2m26s

KOing: TO FINISH DIDDY just use your dsmash after the cargo release. Yeah, that's right, you can grab release to dsmash Diddy Kong to KO him!! Of course he has to land on the banana like with the chaingrab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU#t=2m44s

If the Diddy knows about the cargo release stuff he could wait until the banana disappears to not be hit by it, but if you're near a edge you could throw him away from the stage or cargo stage spike him so he's in a bad position if he doesn't try to brake out... if you plan to hit him with a dsmash don't chaingrab him first so he can't wait for the banana to disappear more easily... to make him try to brake out grab him and pummel him once, then cargo him, he probably inputted some commands to shorten the cargo time...

EDIT: The banana disappears REALLY quick, much quicker than I thought. If Diddy has >60 % and doesn't press any buttons he won't be released while the banana is still there. Even if you grabbed it as soon as possible and grabbed Diddy as soon as possible. This means if the Diddy knows about it pummel him before you cargo him to make him brake out, then cargo him if you hear him mashing buttons. Even if he stops he probably still mashed some while the cargo time was and he'll be released quicker...
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
The grab release stuff is pretty cool, could you also grab release to sakurai combo?
lol no side B is way too slow, but I tested if you can footstool him and you can. Too bad the GFSC doesn't work on Diddy............

I added a video to my last post so everyone can see what I'm talking about (you can also view it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq9PcOYrzOU)... really sorry for the bad quality lol, I guess next time I shouldn't care about the filesize too much and just have better quality.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,632
sorry to ask again guys but can SOMEONE please write a match up summary for whoever we have discussed recently.

sorry to say but I don't know if I can update this anymore, life is calling and school is getting harder.

I am begging you guys to please write the match ups that I couldn't or that were incomplete. I will still update this with pictures and other stuff but I can't write the match ups.

PLEASE AND THANK YOU GUYS
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
I looked back and it seems we didn't have any real discussions about the characters...

We had Sonic (dunno I didn't look back that much, but I think we mostly had posts like "I don't have any/much Sonic experience"), Yoshi (only a few posts, some said Yoshi is really hard for DK some said it's 55:45 DK).

That's mostly it, but there were also some ZSS, Pit and Falco posts/discussions inbetween...

Seems to me we're pretty unorganized right now. Maybe we should start with one of those characters and finish them.


Who would everyone like to discuss from those (ZSS, Pit, Yoshi, Sonic, or maybe someone else)?
 

daisho

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
1,602
Location
College Park, MD
I've never heard anyone say that
Kai does and he's one of the best sonics and he lives in a DK infested area. Though idk if he played any of them besides me (he 2-1d me. Last game was low percent 1 stock but I had a nine wind charged so it was close lol).

I fell for all his stupid mindgames though. Every time I try to juggle him he just springs and Dairs without lag. I think I got hit by that "combo" like 15 times in the set. And I knew it was coming half the time.
 

ook

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
1,635
Location
Vernon Hills, Illinois
I've heard it... I kinda believe them. How are you gonna kill sonic when he's moving around so much?


I mean fsmash is still a little too slow, Sonic can pretty easily shield it or jump over it.

Punch is ok, but Sonic can fake you out and then you've just wasted a punch and have to charge it up again, which is difficult against sonic. His moves aren't really predictable enough to super armor, he's got a lot of options.

Same with dsmash, Sonic can fake you out really well and then punish the long lag.

bair maybe, but then you have to have it fresh... which is not worth it.

uair possibly

utilt? dunno

Upsmash? It seems the only time sonic is directly above you, you've got a spring falling on your head

side-b? eh




I fought shugo a couple times and that was my main problem.... just trying to find a way to get a good hit on him. :urg:



edit: same time post :D
 

Demp

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
414
Location
Michigan
I find it's all about throwing him off his game by breaking his spindash, or whatever-the-**** it's called, and getting him into the air. Some of my advice is fairly obvious though. But meh, might as well get the discussion started.

-Down-B is good for spindash at first until they start jumping above you. Or just run at them and space the Dowb-B, so even when they release they cannot jump above you. From what I notice he normally has to travel a certain distance before he can jump during the spindash.
-I like to run at them to force them to release the spindash, then Up-B which beats it about every time, and if it doesn't you still have SA frames. Or I just use it when I know they are going to run into it.
-DTilt beats spindash and it fast, but if you miss you get punished, no doubt. I think Jab does too, but it has a shorter range. So meh.
-I haven't tried it, but I heard Nair is great against him.
-Rolling behind him as he spindashes toward you helps a lot too. He cannot really do much about it since he can't turn around easily I think, but all it really does is reset everything unless you juke him into jumping out of it to Bair, and whatnot.

I haven't played any REAL good Sawniks though, so I am not sure how far my post could take you.
 

DKwill

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
1,232
Location
Planking the ledge 185 times over.
3DS FC
3497-1934-6087
Haha this is perfect! I just came back from 8 hours of training with Wes and Bum last night, so I can tell you anything you would want to know about the DK vs Sonic matchup =)

Oh and Cable, in all honesty I think the matchup is close to even just because of how fast Sonic is compared to DK, so you have that part right- that DK has trouble. But DK definitely does not lose to Sonic, he has all the tools and KO power to take him out and can survive to over 200% each stock if played correctly. You do have to space very well though to avoid being comboed, because when Sonic hits you- you will be comboed.

In general, here is my take on the DK vs Sonic matchup:

- In terms of approaches, your safest bet is to space retreating b-airs to disrupt Sonic's approaches, or to approach him with grounded up-b. Grounded up-b will either clash or beat spin dash, and is an excellent approach against Sonic at any given time.

- I agree with Demp, disrupting his spin dash is key since that is his most predictable, yet effective approach. If you see him charging a spin dash, depending on the distance between you and Sonic, you can space a down b. More than likely if he knows he will not be able to avoid running into it, he will stop charging it and cancel into a stationary position. If you are relatively far away from Sonic and can see his spin dash approach coming, I would suggest running away (thus baiting his approach) and buffering a down-b. If he has already committed to his approach, the hitboxes behind DK will beat the spin dash if you time it correctly. Also, jab and d-tilt can disrupt the spin dash but they are very hard to time. Do not try to f-tilt the spin dash because it is too slow and you will mostly likely be punished since he can wait for the lag afterward to come in and hit you.

- In close combat, jab is your best friend. If you ever find an opening, jab to jab combo works very well, as well as jab to grab if you tipper the first jab. D-tilt to down b still works great against him if you ever find yourself behind his shield, thus in the position to use d-tilts. When I grab Sonic, I almost always back throw to get him into the air to allow for juggling with b-airs and u-airs. If you are at the edge though, I've found that cargo d-throw, to instant ledge grab, to falling b-air from the ledge can work very well. If your b-air is fresh enough or if Sonic is at a high enough percent, this is a legitimate way of killing him if you catch him off guard.

- Sonic's up-b--> very annoying, I agree. Watch out for the spring off stage as it can steal your double jump and end up gimping you completely. Do your best to avoid it, although you can utilize the invincibility frame during DK's up-b to get through it without a problem. At all costs avoid the up-b to u-air , since this is Sonic's best way of killing DK at low percents. Other than that he is not going to kill you unless you try to challenge an f-smash, fall into a d-smash, or are baited into a b-air.

- If you are still grounded and he has used up-b, try foxtrotting around to bait the d-air. If you are able to time it extremely well, up smash beats it (though not recommended) but it is easiest if he has d-aired into a platform right above you. You can also run past the d-air and pivot grab, or just shield and grab him out of it. Also, when sonic has run out of jumps, has stopped using homing attacks and is forced to up-b from under the stage, you can instant ledge grab to force him right above you. This gets you a free u-air and is a good way of killing him or dealing sure damage. If you can read his up-b missing the edge and going onto the stage, you can space a charged d-smash since Sonic is COMPLETELY vulnerable toward the end of his up-b. This is probably one of the more satisfying ways to KO him =) You can also simply grab him out of his up-b, and if you allow for an air release by not pummeling or throwing him, he will fall off of the stage, unable to recover.

- SA punch beats everything Sonic can throw at you, the difficulty is landing one on him. The most effective ways I have landed sure punches are when Sonic is charging an f smash when you are holding onto the edge (they seem to like doing that lol). Ledge hop punch is a valid punish given you DI it onto the stage, also I have discovered that ledge hop headbutt punishes this as well (into d-smash/f-smash/punch)

Ok, well maybe this is more specific than what I thought it would be lol. If you guys have any more questions I will be glad to assist, get at me on aim: smartguy41112. If I remember anything else I will def post it up.
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
Maybe it would also be good to discuss what stage to CP against Sonic and which stages you should avoid/ban.

I'm not sure if YI would be a good stage, because Sonic, like DK, also has an invincible attack (side B) if he uses it at an edge.
 

Donkey Bong

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
610
even though YI gives sonic his invincible attack i think its still a better DK stage than Sonic stage.

not only do we have the ledge bananagins, we also have the Shy Guys which extend the length of the hitboxes. Really great for getting that unexpected KO.

LM is also a really good CP against Sonic. DK lives forever in there, and Sonic is really bad at destroying the pillars to avoid our broken downb stuff on that stage. also you can cargo>uthrow into ceiling>dsmash for the kill. Pillars, again, lengthen DK's hitboxes.

thats all i've got for now. Just avoid stages that give Sonic a large amount of space to play in (LC, FD, etc.).

edit: oh wait! if your TO is bat**** insane and for some reason has Hyrule Temple as legal, ban that **** or you'll be forced to endure 8 minutes of Sonic running from one side of the stage to the other with the "You're too slow!" taunt.:laugh:
 

Shugo-Chan

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 8, 2008
Messages
1,570
Location
Ohio
I'd say this matchup is pretty even due to the fact Sonic can't kill Donkey for a very long time, but is able to juggle him pretty well. Donkey has a hard time catching him, but can also k.o pretty fast. I heard apparently donkey's down b or something works really well for sonic, but iono for sure of course all of this stuff is just what I think and have learned through experience o:

-Sorry for like eavesdropping kinda lmaooo.
 

ksizl4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,222
Location
NJ/NY
Will did a good job in that essay

Shugo you're my ****ing slave. stop ****** white women. ima ****ing kill you.

DK yo. cableeeeeeeee

i think will and kai are money matching today for like 5 or 10 dollars. should be interesting to see. hope you come back and tell us how it goes will
 

crifer

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
1,078
Location
Germany, Koblenz
against sonic I keep on moving all the time.
never stop. retreating sh double bair helps.
or try down b (in order to make him jump) stop it as fast as you can and go for uairs.
 
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