wazgood
Smash Ace
DK lost his double bair? laammmeeeeeee
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The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April
- Thread starter Almas
- Start date
- Status
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Initial Thoughts
Ganondorf: I don't know if I played like **** or what changed but Ganondorf just feels awful. The thing is, he didn't change everyone else just got better. SHFFing is so good now that his Over-B isn't nearly as potent as I remember it. Sure the SH Over-B catches them, but 90% of the time people rolled out of the way to avoid any followups. He still falls really quickly and with the off the stage games being stronger then Beta 1 he gets gimped, hard. I literally couldn't keep Capt. Falcon or Sonic off me. It was worse with Falcon because the SH Knee is back and all of Ganon's moves are laggy as sin.
I can maybe chalk those rounds up to counterpicks and playing as ****, but I was heartbroken by Gdorf.
SOLUTION: With gravity modifiers? There is none. The rest of the characters I played with felt great and bringing them down to fight Ganon is dumb. If I can throw out ideas, Ganon's A jab needs to be twice as fast. It's a great way to reset the situation and give Ganon some space. Otherwise, Ganondorf is doomed to fast characters and getting gimped. Speaking of gimped, his recovery is atrocious and predictable.
Falcon: He feels great. Is this the same setup as you posted late last night, cause it felt that way. Falcon is amazingly fun to play with and feels very solid.
SOLUTION: Keep him as he is.
Lucario: My Lucario experience is limited but I found this a tad disturbing when messing around with him. I feel his u-tilt is now under a Sheik syndrome on the medium to fast fallers in the cast. I was comp stomping level 8s to mess with Lucario and it seemed I could spam U-tilt to about 35% on Ganondorf, then get an U-smash. If I caught the dodge or they didn't dodge I could continue to juggle more. It was even worse on the faster fallers. I got Fox to 55-60% and could still land an U-smash. You do have to be right next to your opponent, but if it's truly not the AI being dumb that's still a big problem.
SOLUTION: Someone with Human opponents test this to see if it's a flaw in the AI's DI or if it truly is a problem.
Link: His recovery seemed buffed, anyone else feel so? Otherwise, my statements from yesterday hold true. I had a little more luck hitting shorties with a z-air, is his SH lower? Either way, he felt great.
SOLUTION: Ship as is!
Fox I like Fox not being so extreme of a fast faller today. He still gets combo'd easily, but it's not as absurd. His recovery seems better from yesterday too. (The Fire Fox felt short yesterday) Basically, I love his faster and more frantic pace, but it's more controllable for me then compared to yesterday. His SH felt a tad higher which was nice for picking up people on platforms too.
SOLUTION: I like him as he is now.
Wolf Mostly the same feelings as yesterday. He didn't change it seems, but he falls faster in comparison to the rest of the cast now. He feels like a space animal which is fine by me.
SOLUTION: The spike is still to risky, but overall I like Wolf as is. His better approach and speed offset his mediocre spike anyway.
Samus **** in my pants...
SOLUTION: I love the new Samus. I'll probably take a Ganon break for a while to cool off and try Samus a lot more.
Overall I like this set up a lot. I haven't played as everyone but besides Ganon I felt everyone played a lot smoother. The pace of the game feels fast and there wasn't the awkward transition between slow running and fast falling like there was in Beta1. The off the stage game is back and still very potent. It's not as strong as before gravity changes, but I like that because it makes for some good diversity amongst the characters that can go WAY out.
Ganondorf: I don't know if I played like **** or what changed but Ganondorf just feels awful. The thing is, he didn't change everyone else just got better. SHFFing is so good now that his Over-B isn't nearly as potent as I remember it. Sure the SH Over-B catches them, but 90% of the time people rolled out of the way to avoid any followups. He still falls really quickly and with the off the stage games being stronger then Beta 1 he gets gimped, hard. I literally couldn't keep Capt. Falcon or Sonic off me. It was worse with Falcon because the SH Knee is back and all of Ganon's moves are laggy as sin.
I can maybe chalk those rounds up to counterpicks and playing as ****, but I was heartbroken by Gdorf.
SOLUTION: With gravity modifiers? There is none. The rest of the characters I played with felt great and bringing them down to fight Ganon is dumb. If I can throw out ideas, Ganon's A jab needs to be twice as fast. It's a great way to reset the situation and give Ganon some space. Otherwise, Ganondorf is doomed to fast characters and getting gimped. Speaking of gimped, his recovery is atrocious and predictable.
Falcon: He feels great. Is this the same setup as you posted late last night, cause it felt that way. Falcon is amazingly fun to play with and feels very solid.
SOLUTION: Keep him as he is.
Lucario: My Lucario experience is limited but I found this a tad disturbing when messing around with him. I feel his u-tilt is now under a Sheik syndrome on the medium to fast fallers in the cast. I was comp stomping level 8s to mess with Lucario and it seemed I could spam U-tilt to about 35% on Ganondorf, then get an U-smash. If I caught the dodge or they didn't dodge I could continue to juggle more. It was even worse on the faster fallers. I got Fox to 55-60% and could still land an U-smash. You do have to be right next to your opponent, but if it's truly not the AI being dumb that's still a big problem.
SOLUTION: Someone with Human opponents test this to see if it's a flaw in the AI's DI or if it truly is a problem.
Link: His recovery seemed buffed, anyone else feel so? Otherwise, my statements from yesterday hold true. I had a little more luck hitting shorties with a z-air, is his SH lower? Either way, he felt great.
SOLUTION: Ship as is!
Fox I like Fox not being so extreme of a fast faller today. He still gets combo'd easily, but it's not as absurd. His recovery seems better from yesterday too. (The Fire Fox felt short yesterday) Basically, I love his faster and more frantic pace, but it's more controllable for me then compared to yesterday. His SH felt a tad higher which was nice for picking up people on platforms too.
SOLUTION: I like him as he is now.
Wolf Mostly the same feelings as yesterday. He didn't change it seems, but he falls faster in comparison to the rest of the cast now. He feels like a space animal which is fine by me.
SOLUTION: The spike is still to risky, but overall I like Wolf as is. His better approach and speed offset his mediocre spike anyway.
Samus **** in my pants...
SOLUTION: I love the new Samus. I'll probably take a Ganon break for a while to cool off and try Samus a lot more.
Overall I like this set up a lot. I haven't played as everyone but besides Ganon I felt everyone played a lot smoother. The pace of the game feels fast and there wasn't the awkward transition between slow running and fast falling like there was in Beta1. The off the stage game is back and still very potent. It's not as strong as before gravity changes, but I like that because it makes for some good diversity amongst the characters that can go WAY out.
Revven
FrankerZ
What he gains is worth it, IMO. He doesn't need double Bair anymore, that was just a crutch for him to hold onto in vB and now that the gravity changes and jump changes benefit him more than keeping him floaty and like vB DK, it's far worth the setback of losing a cool double attack. Besides, he can still do single Bair > Utilt for sexy setups.
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Ya I forgot to write up about DK, but Falco is right. DK feels amazing and the loss of double b-air was a quick adjustment for me.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
They buffed his D-taunt.
No seriously, it's a worthy trade. I would take a good shffl'd nair and a low-hitting bair any day. He feels all kinds of awesome.
Osi
Smash Ace
I agree completely here. The double bair was nice and all, but DK being faster in his SHFF game helps him a lot more overall IMO. Lower SH dairs is also a nice help to him for punishing tech rolls and adding a fast vertical setup move. I actually tend to stomp a lot more on him now with the lower SH.
Oracle
Smash Master
Any vids of this codeset yet?
zxeon
Smash Lord
I see we're still being stubborn about ZSS' SH.
Dan_X
Smash Lord
I don't think it's needed. As it would hurt her more than anything.
peachfvl
Smash Apprentice
so this really has dashspeed set to 1.15?
zxeon
Smash Lord
I have no idea what you mean Having the ability to hit grounded opponents immeadiatly after jumping would be terrible.
I guess since she has 1.05 up grav it acts more like a .8 SH I'll give it a try.
Gave it a try and it still sucks. Not only does her kick still clear mid sized enemies her whole body does. That is a huge margin.
zxeon
Smash Lord
But to use the FF I'd need to get to the top of my SH and then FF which takes time and looks stupid.
cooler1339
Smash Apprentice
I have to agree. The point of the short hop is that it is short. You can jump and fastfall a hit, but how does that benefit her more than just a short hit that's much faster? There is nor need for such a large jump.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I'll wait for the Cape, Giza, and Yeroc to reply to this same argument again if they so desire.
Edit: Woah, I was going to try my hand at tweaking a few things, but the launch speed / gravity section is completely different. Would you chaps mind explaining the tweakery of this new beast? Thanks!
Edit 2: Nevermind, I'm an idiot. It may have just gotten shifted around.
Edit: Woah, I was going to try my hand at tweaking a few things, but the launch speed / gravity section is completely different. Would you chaps mind explaining the tweakery of this new beast? Thanks!
Edit 2: Nevermind, I'm an idiot. It may have just gotten shifted around.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
What stages are frozen on this level freeze code? I played PS2 today and it certainly wasn't frozen...
peachfvl
Smash Apprentice
why don´t we use the code that needs to hold the L button to freeze the stage.
i was using it and it didn´t freeze it but just slowed it a lot
i was using it and it didn´t freeze it but just slowed it a lot
zxeon
Smash Lord
I think we should perfect the "Hold L to freeze stage" code. That way we can two stages out of one. Like Frozen PK stadium and not frozen and the same kind of thing for Picto Chat.
plasmatorture
Smash Journeyman
Judging from the values, it should be WW, PS2, Norfair, Mario Circuit, Spear Pillar, and Pirate Ship frozen, but I dunno.
Personally I use:
Which definitley works right with all the stages. I haven't bothered testing the "official" one because I think freezing Pirate Ship is stupid.
I think I might start a stage discussion thread when I have time later tonight because we should get some general consensus on which stages should be frozen/reversed and, most importantly, WHY. Additionally, custom stages are very viable to support in B+ and I'll bring that up as well.
Personally I use:
Code:
Level Reverse (Reverse: WW, PS2, Greengreens, nofair, mariokart) [9 lines]
* 4A000000 90000000
* 1416A904 BF800000
* 22623090 0000001C
* 22623090 00000014
* 22623090 0000002D
* 22623090 0000000B
* 22623090 00000006
* 1416A904 3F800000
* E0000000 80008000I think I might start a stage discussion thread when I have time later tonight because we should get some general consensus on which stages should be frozen/reversed and, most importantly, WHY. Additionally, custom stages are very viable to support in B+ and I'll bring that up as well.
Dan_X
Smash Lord
I'm not even sure if you were referring to me earlier, but in my defense, my point was that I agree with the Cape, Giza, and Yeroc about ZSS.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
I did a little bit more play testing.
Are you guys sure you can SHDU with Mario? If I work at it I can just barely get the second one to get its initial frames out if I'm standing still and clawing. Once I start moving though it doesn't happen, let alone in a fast moving combo. I also upped his FF to 1.3. I might even try out the 1.4 FF. A good FF is important to him for Fair Spike wakeup mindgames and comboing in general. I felt the 1.2 FF was rather lacking.
Also, I'm quite confused with the buffer code. 2 Frame buffer seemed to be working fine for me, and at least mentally Thunderstorming seemed easier. MuBa also claims to have success with it. What's the deal?
And I can't get over how raw DK is. I gotta try Cargo and Uair combos.
Edit: Orca, I was talking about zxeon's request for a short ZSS SH -- I don't think I was referring to you.
Are you guys sure you can SHDU with Mario? If I work at it I can just barely get the second one to get its initial frames out if I'm standing still and clawing. Once I start moving though it doesn't happen, let alone in a fast moving combo. I also upped his FF to 1.3. I might even try out the 1.4 FF. A good FF is important to him for Fair Spike wakeup mindgames and comboing in general. I felt the 1.2 FF was rather lacking.
Also, I'm quite confused with the buffer code. 2 Frame buffer seemed to be working fine for me, and at least mentally Thunderstorming seemed easier. MuBa also claims to have success with it. What's the deal?
And I can't get over how raw DK is. I gotta try Cargo and Uair combos.
Edit: Orca, I was talking about zxeon's request for a short ZSS SH -- I don't think I was referring to you.
Osi
Smash Ace
This is still possible, just hard... if not near perfect timing. I've landed the second hit of the SHDU while standing still, and while running. This is really hard to do now though... You can get mario about 1/3 of the way through his back flip animation on the second hit before landing. The trick is to not press it early... time it like you would with falco's lazers to make them do a high/low SHDL. Rather than pressing it twice fast just give it a moment.
The Cape
Smash Master
I tried lower SH on ZSS.
Basically she cant autocancel anything and STILL misses people. It makes her less safe and kills ALL of her options.
Seriously. Leave her alone.
Basically she cant autocancel anything and STILL misses people. It makes her less safe and kills ALL of her options.
Seriously. Leave her alone.
Osi
Smash Ace
Beta 2 code set impressions
Fox:
I think his SH is a little shorter on this one that the last, and as odd as it sounds he is fun to use. I still think 7 for the SH would have some benefits, but the speed of this low SH does help him just as much, so it's a toss up to me. You can still get out the SH up air strong hit if timed right, and it makes SH weak up air juggles even better. I like him on beta 2, feels good just like he did in beta 1, and has some new benefits.
Falcon:
Amazing - done lol. He can do pretty much every off stage attack I would try with him in a match and expect to make it back. He still keeps the low SH and speed, so he plays just as I'd expect falcon to. He can actually ledgehop down air on to the stage still which is just too fun to do hehe. Good work Shanus.
Samus:
I like the full hop, gravity, and fast fall she has. Samus feels floaty, but still can be fast falled quick enough to combo. I would like to see the SH go down 1 or 2 settings more, but it's at 0 now hahahaha so can't do more on that end. She plays well. The SHFF forward air and up air are just too sexy now, you can cancel the last hit right as it reaches the ground and follow up so fast.
Marth:
He feels awesome still. The double SH fair is pretty easy to do. You can actually SH forward air to back air... which is so sexy. I think he can use a bit more FF. The jump heights feel well done, but with a better FF you could SHFF the nair for a lot more of the SH and it would help SH single fair combos.
Mario:
He feels good. The SH height is well done as you can land SH double up airs ok, and the single bair is still fast. I think the speed of his full hop could use a little more... not much though, and it would help his off stage game a little. The FF on mario could use a slight adjustment, maybe just 1 level faster. This would help his SH single up air combos a bit.
Jiggly:
Still awesome... I think you left this one alone right?
Peach:
I like her SH and fast fall settings. The SHFF fair comes out right at ground level which is nice, and the SH dair does the full set of hits when done without fast falling. I think her full jump can use 1 level higher.... maybe.... it could not even be needed. She can ledgehop onto the stage without issue using all airs, and even the fair which is great.
Falco:
Feels well done. The full jump is high enough for my taste(I didn't mind it set at 9 either, but really didn't feel all that necessary to me), and the SHDL are just awesome at this SH height.
Ike:
He feels much better on this one, and his ledge hop air's all work well again.
I'll hop on the rest and edit this post later with any more I test on.
Fox:
I think his SH is a little shorter on this one that the last, and as odd as it sounds he is fun to use. I still think 7 for the SH would have some benefits, but the speed of this low SH does help him just as much, so it's a toss up to me. You can still get out the SH up air strong hit if timed right, and it makes SH weak up air juggles even better. I like him on beta 2, feels good just like he did in beta 1, and has some new benefits.
Falcon:
Amazing - done lol. He can do pretty much every off stage attack I would try with him in a match and expect to make it back. He still keeps the low SH and speed, so he plays just as I'd expect falcon to. He can actually ledgehop down air on to the stage still which is just too fun to do hehe. Good work Shanus.
Samus:
I like the full hop, gravity, and fast fall she has. Samus feels floaty, but still can be fast falled quick enough to combo. I would like to see the SH go down 1 or 2 settings more, but it's at 0 now hahahaha so can't do more on that end. She plays well. The SHFF forward air and up air are just too sexy now, you can cancel the last hit right as it reaches the ground and follow up so fast.
Marth:
He feels awesome still. The double SH fair is pretty easy to do. You can actually SH forward air to back air... which is so sexy. I think he can use a bit more FF. The jump heights feel well done, but with a better FF you could SHFF the nair for a lot more of the SH and it would help SH single fair combos.
Mario:
He feels good. The SH height is well done as you can land SH double up airs ok, and the single bair is still fast. I think the speed of his full hop could use a little more... not much though, and it would help his off stage game a little. The FF on mario could use a slight adjustment, maybe just 1 level faster. This would help his SH single up air combos a bit.
Jiggly:
Still awesome... I think you left this one alone right?
Peach:
I like her SH and fast fall settings. The SHFF fair comes out right at ground level which is nice, and the SH dair does the full set of hits when done without fast falling. I think her full jump can use 1 level higher.... maybe.... it could not even be needed. She can ledgehop onto the stage without issue using all airs, and even the fair which is great.
Falco:
Feels well done. The full jump is high enough for my taste(I didn't mind it set at 9 either, but really didn't feel all that necessary to me), and the SHDL are just awesome at this SH height.
Ike:
He feels much better on this one, and his ledge hop air's all work well again.
I'll hop on the rest and edit this post later with any more I test on.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
I'm about to go test everything, after adding in my CSS, plus camera and stage builder codes. 
Starscream
Smash Ace
Ignore everything I've said. 1 frame buffering does work. Major facepalm. For some reason it just feels a lot more subtle with the 1 liner than the 23 liner. I don't get crouches after SHFFLs with the 1 liner but I do when using the 23 liner. It's weird but as long as this one works, and it does, so I'm happy.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
game crashed switching from zelda -> sheik using the newest codeset.
zxeon
Smash Lord
How low did you go? What multiplier?
Frogles
Smash Ace
Beta 2 Impressions
DK- Feels absolutely TERRIBLE. Only one Bair and he cant even FF it or he'll get lag. Nair doesn't auto-cancel now and still goes over most chars. Uair gets lag if you try to FF. His SH game gets overall MUCH worse. DK is one of the few chars that doesn't need to be tampered with much. He's fine with more fall speed but his SH was perfect before. I read some posts that he gains more than he loses and I'm gonna call BS. He can't do anything now that he couldn't before.
Lucas- Can't autocancel Fair anymore and I can't seem to recall at the moment but I'm pretty sure his autocancel Nair is out the window as well. His original SH is fine.
Mario- Other people have already posted about it, but he can't double uair now. Actually his SH feels like his Melee SH. ~_~
Sonic- His SH height and FF feel fine, but the weird buffering makes his Fair not cancel at times.
Fox-Feels good. Much better than last set. Has a Dthrow chain grab on himself and maybe other fast fallers? Stuff like that is hard to test alone.
Falco- Feels perfect. One thing I noticed is that he still has his chain grab. I remember people saying it was gone with hitstun, but it looks like it's back. I'm not sure if people were just whiffing it before or if the new set brings it back. I tested it on Snake, Fox, and Peach, and it worked fine on all of them. It sends into tumble, but you can still grab fast enough. Dunno if it can be DI'd or not.
Wolf- Didn't try him last set, but he falls too fast now and he loses auto cancel Fair which is BAD. His SH should be kept the same as in vB if possible to retain his auto-cancel Fair.
Falcon- Good. Much better than last set.
Luigi- Eh I'm not sure how I feel about this one. His SH gets so low he can't double bair.
Marth- Great. His double fair feels exactly like Melee.
Bowser- His jump is a problem. I can tap the jump button twice before he does a SH. When I tried that with other chars their double jumps came out. Needs jump speed. On the positive side he gets a nice Uthrow > Uair kill on fast fallers.
Also, the buffer code seems faulty. At times the buffering works but most of the time it doesn't. So sometimes instant aerials will work but most other times they wont.
DK- Feels absolutely TERRIBLE. Only one Bair and he cant even FF it or he'll get lag. Nair doesn't auto-cancel now and still goes over most chars. Uair gets lag if you try to FF. His SH game gets overall MUCH worse. DK is one of the few chars that doesn't need to be tampered with much. He's fine with more fall speed but his SH was perfect before. I read some posts that he gains more than he loses and I'm gonna call BS. He can't do anything now that he couldn't before.
Lucas- Can't autocancel Fair anymore and I can't seem to recall at the moment but I'm pretty sure his autocancel Nair is out the window as well. His original SH is fine.
Mario- Other people have already posted about it, but he can't double uair now. Actually his SH feels like his Melee SH. ~_~
Sonic- His SH height and FF feel fine, but the weird buffering makes his Fair not cancel at times.
Fox-Feels good. Much better than last set. Has a Dthrow chain grab on himself and maybe other fast fallers? Stuff like that is hard to test alone.
Falco- Feels perfect. One thing I noticed is that he still has his chain grab. I remember people saying it was gone with hitstun, but it looks like it's back. I'm not sure if people were just whiffing it before or if the new set brings it back. I tested it on Snake, Fox, and Peach, and it worked fine on all of them. It sends into tumble, but you can still grab fast enough. Dunno if it can be DI'd or not.
Wolf- Didn't try him last set, but he falls too fast now and he loses auto cancel Fair which is BAD. His SH should be kept the same as in vB if possible to retain his auto-cancel Fair.
Falcon- Good. Much better than last set.
Luigi- Eh I'm not sure how I feel about this one. His SH gets so low he can't double bair.
Marth- Great. His double fair feels exactly like Melee.
Bowser- His jump is a problem. I can tap the jump button twice before he does a SH. When I tried that with other chars their double jumps came out. Needs jump speed. On the positive side he gets a nice Uthrow > Uair kill on fast fallers.
Also, the buffer code seems faulty. At times the buffering works but most of the time it doesn't. So sometimes instant aerials will work but most other times they wont.
Bowser King
Have It Your Way
I'll test put bowser and see how he is.
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Bowser King
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Bowser King
Revven
FrankerZ
I disagree. I second DK in vBrawl and used him extensively in Melee. His SH is fine, single Bair to Utilt setsup stuff on most of the cast now than before. It was a pain to hit people like Lucas in vB before (which IIRC, DK has kind of hard against Lucas in vB). He is not much worse, I don't know how you can say that, you probably don't even main DK.
His double Bair isn't all that in B+ anyway. =\
Frogles
Smash Ace
I prob don't even main DK? DK was my fav and prob my best char in Brawl, MAYBE second to Wario and I also used him extensively in both SSB and Melee. Don't try to accuse me of just rambling about a char I don't know about. If I didn't pick him I wouldn't care enough to make a post about it. It ****ing pisses me off that you'd say that. I dont have to have my name in some special color or be a well known player to know what I'm talking about.
And it isn't just about his Double Bair, his other moves don't benefit either. You can't FF Uair OR Bair or you'll get lag, his Nair always gets lag and still goes over most of the cast, and his dair really doesn't change. You can barely SH Fair now, but it isn't too great out of a SH anyway.
About that Bair > Utilt, in what situations are you landing that?
And it isn't just about his Double Bair, his other moves don't benefit either. You can't FF Uair OR Bair or you'll get lag, his Nair always gets lag and still goes over most of the cast, and his dair really doesn't change. You can barely SH Fair now, but it isn't too great out of a SH anyway.
About that Bair > Utilt, in what situations are you landing that?
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
*Shrugs* I don't see how you can say DK is worse or anything like that but to each his own.
MuBa
Smash Lord
If you guys are talking about shanus's set then it's awesome! I made a few adjustments like faster dash speed and lower hitlag.
Frogles
Smash Ace
even lower hitlag? you really like the speed dont you muba lol
anyways i dont understand how DK is better like this. someone please explain to me how lower sh helps him instead of just disagreeing with me.
anyways i dont understand how DK is better like this. someone please explain to me how lower sh helps him instead of just disagreeing with me.
MuBa
Smash Lord
I like my fighting games fast and exciting.
DK is better with a shorter short hop because he can quickly approach and combo his Bair and Nair.
For recovery purpose his Full Hop deserves to be the same height if not just a little higher.
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