The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Revven]

Why was custom stages taken away from 4.1?????

They weren't intentionally taken away, it was for the texture codes to work properly without freezing.

 

[StarcraftLedZeppelin]

It's insanely lame, =C

 

[GPDP]

They weren't intentionally taken away, it was for the texture codes to work properly without freezing.

Well, the newest version of the File Replacement code works just fine, so there's no need to disable custom stages anymore. I don't see why the newest beta sets haven't incorporated it.

 

[Veril]

Jigglypuff's rest

I'm going to respond preemptively to the John's and calls to nerf rest.

1. It does not KO at 0%. The average KO is around 32 without DI from the center of FD.

2. Most combos into rest require Jiggs make unsafe approaches, use short range moves, or exploit your mistakes.

3. 0-Ds all involve up-tilt or autocanceled up air. tilt has a tiny tiny hitbox with mediocre priority that puts her back to you and has only one good setup from what I've seen, which is autocanceled up-air, itself short range and punishable. Good spacing by any character with any disjoint makes these hard to land.

4. I had a friend, a relative noob in fact, SDI and TECH rest at 40% with Pikachu.

5. If rest KOs, it is punishable by most of the cast. Start a combo

6. Rest isn't practical at high% and is hard to combo into, especially with floaty characters.


Slightly reducing the knockback of rest, so that it KOs at an average of 45% would be acceptable. Any higher would be a really unnecessary nerfing.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I'm going to respond preemptively to the John's and calls to nerf rest.

1. It does not KO at 0%. The average KO is around 32 without DI from the center of FD.

2. Most combos into rest require Jiggs make unsafe approaches, use short range moves, or exploit your mistakes.

3. 0-Ds all involve up-tilt or autocanceled up air. tilt has a tiny tiny hitbox with mediocre priority that puts her back to you and has only one good setup from what I've seen, which is autocanceled up-air, itself short range and punishable. Good spacing by any character with any disjoint makes these hard to land.

4. I had a friend, a relative noob in fact, SDI and TECH rest at 40% with Pikachu.

5. If rest KOs, it is punishable by most of the cast. Start a combo

6. Rest isn't practical at high% and is hard to combo into, especially with floaty characters.


Slightly reducing the knockback of rest, so that it KOs at an average of 45% would be acceptable. Any higher would be a really unnecessary nerfing.

I use jiggs in b+. I agree 100% but it shouldnt be buffed or nerfed. If anything, I prefer the star KO, but with the same engine, such as koing at 32, but it just sky rockets upward because many times i have landed rest, and my opponent simply comes back to the stage and punish me for it. If I miss, I get punished, if I land it, it's still possible to be punished.

 

[CloneHat]

I use jiggs in b+. I agree 100% but it shouldnt be buffed or nerfed. If anything, I prefer the star KO, but with the same engine, such as koing at 32, but it just sky rockets upward because many times i have landed rest, and my opponent simply comes back to the stage and punish me for it. If I miss, I get punished, if I land it, it's still possible to be punished.

Punishablility is part of the reason it shouldn't be nerfed.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I use jiggs in b+. I agree 100% but it shouldnt be buffed or nerfed. If anything, I prefer the star KO, but with the same engine, such as koing at 32, but it just sky rockets upward because many times i have landed rest, and my opponent simply comes back to the stage and punish me for it. If I miss, I get punished, if I land it, it's still possible to be punished.

Thats the whole point of it not start KO'ing.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Thats the whole point of it not start KO'ing.

vague post please specify

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Could you decrease the lag of ivysaurs fair? It's really hard to combo with, and it feels horrible to spam nair (lolnairlock) too much..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pbDtUvE4kU

1:40-1:50

 

[cAm8ooo]

vague post please specify

The whole reason we changed it to not star KO was to make it punishable. We wouldnt want to keep the same system with such low kills if this new angle wasnt applied. I personally think it would be a little too good if it still star KO'd.

I suggest you counterpick Luigi's Mansion. Since you spawn so far up you can have a better chance of resting without being punished.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

The whole reason we changed it to not star KO was to make it punishable. We wouldnt want to keep the same system with such low kills if this new angle wasnt applied. I personally think it would be a little too good if it still star KO'd.

I suggest you counterpick Luigi's Mansion. Since you spawn so far up you can have a better chance of resting without being punished.

ah i see. LM is turning out to be my most used CP stage

 

[Veril]

The whole reason we changed rest to not star KO was to make it punishable. We wouldnt want to keep the same system with such low kills if this new angle wasnt applied. I personally think it would be a little too good if it still star KO'd.

I suggest you counterpick Luigi's Mansion. Since you spawn so far up you can have a better chance of resting without being punished.

Rest would be completely broken with star KOs. The fact that it is punishable limits its use substantially.

Learn to space and DI and don't get up-tilted. That's how to avoid rest.

Spoiler

I will rest you regardless

 

[GHNeko]

Veril, come to Hobo 16 or WHobo 2. >_>

 

[thesage]

@Silvn: The problem with Ness is that he has range on paper but in the long run he doesn't really and he moves slowly (his speed greatly hampers his ability to combo as well). Just because he sucks in this game and melee and was above average in 64 doesn't mean we should just throw him away. I mean Samus sucked in vbrawl and 64 and was above average in melee. Should we throw her away too?

@Kupo: Ness is a piece of trash in brawl+. He combos less then he does in vbrawl lol. He also gets combo'd pretty badly. I can think of several characters that are better than him in almost every catergory (Shiek, Jiggs, Pika, others) the only category Ness wins vs. those characters is weight (which doesn't really help him since it leads him to be combo'd). His fair barely does anything when you hit with it. It leads into combos at lower percents and never kills. It's not even that great for edgeguarding. You gave a buff to sheik when she didn't even need it lol.

@Knuxrouge: Isn't it the same for every character when we do buffs/nerfs? Besides I don't really see Ness' ground game op at all. It has around 4 useful moves (4 is pushing it btw).

 

[Sukai]

@Knuxrouge: Isn't it the same for every character when we do buffs/nerfs? Besides I don't really see Ness' ground game op at all. It has around 4 useful moves (4 is pushing it btw).

UH....
Mind quoting me on what I said in which this is a response to....?

 

[thesage]

By sensitive, I mean that it's a really touchy area to look into for buffs, changes would have to be precise as to not break him, I can just generally see alot of deadly combos being done and low percent kills.
I say his air game should do well to compensate.

that... Did you mean he has those things already?

 

[Sukai]

Oh, wow, late much.
Yeah I suppose it apples to each character, but some characters aren't as sensitive as Ness.
I was basically saying that his ground game is good as is, making it any better would be really iffy. His air game has more grounds for improvement that won't break him.

 

[thesage]

His ground game is terrible. What are you talking about? I have a hard time figuring out characters that have worse ground games than him >_>;

 

[Sukai]

His ground game is terrible.

It's not terrible.

What are you talking about? I have a hard time figuring out characters that have worse ground games than him >_>;

Okay then, what buff do you propose?
Bear in mind Ness' air game and gimp ability.

 

[thesage]

It's not terrible.

Name a character with a worse ground game. I was going through the tier list and maybe though Ganon, but I fogot about his side b.

Okay then, what buff do you propose?
Bear in mind Ness' air game and gimp ability.

What is so good about Ness' air game? His fair is not that great. If they know how to di they take like 8 damage from it usually. It combos somewhat at lower percentages and after that it's just a gtfo move (with quit a bit of startup lag to do that with). Uair doesn't combo that well. Bair is his best killer but is extremely predictable. Dair has tons of startup lag. Nair sets up for edgeguarding if the opponent is knocked offstage. Not many reliable combos here (esp. since he's supposed to be a character that combos).

His gimp game is not as powerful as Shiek's, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mario, Luigi, MK, etc. These characters are also better than him in almost every other stat. What is Ness' gimp game right now?

Offstage Nair, dairspike, pk flash edgeguard (does this count?), pkt2 combos. Ness doesn't set up well for any of these. Dair is too slow for somebody with his recovery to be reliably gimping with.

 

[Sukai]

Name a character with a worse ground game. I was going through the tier list and maybe though Ganon, but I forgot about his side b.

Well, I don't think Ness' ground game is bad. His Side B is pretty ****, even with SDI it's hard as hell to escape a chain of em, but I predominantly play Fox so....
If I was to name a worse ground game character, I'd say Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff revolves almost completely around her air game.

What is so good about Ness' air game? His fair is not that great.

What!? That move spaces like Shaq!

If they know how to di they take like 8 damage from it usually. It combos somewhat at lower percentages and after that it's just a gtfo move (with quit a bit of startup lag to do that with).

So, it combos at low percentages, then spaces at higher percentages, seeing how it spaces, the start up lag is acceptable.

Uair doesn't combo that well.

But it's deceivingly quick, nice priority and pretty strong. Every move doesn't need to combo.

Bair is his best killer but is extremely predictable.

Okay, you got me there, but it just supports my suggestion to look into his aerials for buffs.

Dair has tons of startup lag.

I got spiked by a Ness down air when aethering with Ike.

Nair sets up for edgeguarding if the opponent is knocked offstage. Not many reliable combos here (esp. since he's supposed to be a character that combos).

Again, look into his aerials for buffs, this is supporting my point you know.

His gimp game is not as powerful as Shiek's, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mario, Luigi, MK, etc. These characters are also better than him in almost every other stat. What is Ness' gimp game right now?

Pretty **** average.

Offstage Nair, dairspike, pk flash edgeguard (does this count?),

****, in Brawl+ it does, no Auto Ledge Snap, I can see alot of Marths, Snakes, Links, Samuses (Zero Suit included), Marios, Luigis, Peaches, Donkey Kongs, Diddy Kongs and Meta Knights getting ***** by that.

pkt2 combos. Ness doesn't set up well for any of these. Dair is too slow for somebody with his recovery to be reliably gimping with.

You made some good points, but again.
Buff his aerials!

 

[thesage]

Well, I don't think Ness' ground game is bad. His Side B is pretty ****, even with SDI it's hard as hell to escape a chain of em, but I predominantly play Fox so....

You need to learn how to di/use shine while in the pillar.

If I was to name a worse ground game character, I'd say Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff revolves almost completely around her air game.

U-tilt combos (like everybody's), her smashes kill/combo/set up for kills better than Ness'. Her specials are used in the air.

What!? That move spaces like Shaq!

So, it combos at low percentages, then spaces at higher percentages, seeing how it spaces, the start up lag is acceptable.

Because you have so much to worry about when you get hit by Ness' fair, like: the damage it does, the combos it sets you up for, and it's amazing knockback at higher percents (I'm being sarcastic). Plus Ness moves too slowly to really take advantage of it. It's not even safe on shields. It's only use is being used as a retreating move. Other characters are much better at spacing. What's Ness going to do, sh fair you all day?

But it's deceivingly quick, nice priority and pretty strong. Every move doesn't need to combo.

Considering it's his best combo move yes it sorta does lol.

I got spiked by a Ness down air when aethering with Ike.

I do that regularly. It's not like Ike is some super hard character to edgeguard...

Again, look into his aerials for buffs, this is supporting my point you know.

His ground game needs to be somewhat useful though.

Pretty **** average.

But it's nothing gamebreaking.

****, in Brawl+ it does, no Auto Ledge Snap, I can see alot of Marths, Snakes, Links, Samuses (Zero Suit included), Marios, Luigis, Peaches, Donkey Kongs, Diddy Kongs and Meta Knights getting ***** by that.

They need to learn how to sweetspot the ledge. Brawl has a gigantic sweetspot area. Only a few characters can be reliably edgeguarded by pk flash.

You made some good points, but again.
Buff his aerials!

[/QUOTE]

I know that, but his ground game needs to be buffed as well. How do you suggest you buff his aerials?

 

[Sukai]

You need to learn how to di/use shine while in the pillar.

You make it sound so easy.
It's not.
If Fox is smack dab in the middle, there's no shining out of it, you'd have to slowly wiggle your way to the edge of it, then shine.

U-tilt combos (like everybody's), her smashes kill/combo/set up for kills better than Ness'. Her specials are used in the air.

All of her ground moves , and I do mean all, can be easily outspaced.
Only in conjunction with her air moves, do they garner any worth.

Because you have so much to worry about when you get hit by Ness' fair, like: the damage it does, the combos it sets you up for, and it's amazing knockback at higher percents (I'm being sarcastic). Plus Ness moves too slowly to really take advantage of it. It's not even safe on shields. It's only use is being used as a retreating move. Other characters are much better at spacing. What's Ness going to do, sh fair you all day?

Sarcasm is kewl.

Considering it's his best combo move yes it sorta does lol.

Maybe at low percentages, on Fox or something.

I do that regularly. It's not like Ike is some super hard character to edgeguard...

Edgeguarding Ike from directly above him is not really a reliable position to be in, but if Ness can do it, then it means something.

His ground game needs to be somewhat useful though.

And it is, my point is that air buffs would make a better investment to building him as a character.

But it's nothing gamebreaking.

Doesn't have to be gamebreaking to be good.

They need to learn how to sweetspot the ledge. Brawl has a gigantic sweetspot area. Only a few characters can be reliably edgeguarded by pk flash

But that's the thing, there is no sweetspot on Brawl+, only a select few recoveries have that, because of this, most characters are forced to recover from below the stage. Ness can easily have a charged PK Flash waiting for them before they ever snap to the ledge, just have to do it well in advance, since non multi jump characters can't stall off stage as much as they used to, their window of safety isn't very big.

I know that, but his ground game needs to be buffed as well. How do you suggest you buff his aerials?

Make his down air 1.5 times faster.
Change the base knockback of his sweetspotted back air to a strict horizontal one.
Change the knockback growth of his up air to one which is comboable.
Speed up the wind up to his forward air and make the last hitbox of the attack draw in towards Ness.
No freefall after airbourne PK Flash.
For starters.

 

[CloneHat]

Wow, please don't start saying Ness's ground game is worse than Jiggly's. LOL
The only ground moves I use are Utilt, dash attack (for surprises), and that's about it. Fsmash is great WHEN IT HITS, which is usually never, Dsmash is awful, and Usmash has too much lag to combo with. Jab and Ftilt have a range of 1cm, and dtilt...sucks.

 

[JCaesar]

Sage stop whining about Ness, good lord.

 

[IC3R]

Make his down air .5 times faster.

Methinks you mean 2x faster. 0.5x faster means it's 2x slower :embarrass

Change the base knockback of his sweetspotted back air to a strict horizontal one.

15 degrees should do.

Change the knockback growth of his up air to one which is comboable.

Combo at low, kill at high?

Speed up the wind up to his forward air and make the last hitbox of the attack draw in towards Ness.

Okay...

No freefall after airbourne PK Flash.

Yoshi and Lucas love you, too...

 

[Sukai]

Methinks you mean 2x faster. 0.5x faster means it's 2x slower :embarrass

My bad.
1.5 times faster.
*edits last post*

 

[shanus]

Lol, Ness is a good character (nair much?). We'll prolly give him some help but you are way over dramatizing it sage.

Make his down air 1.5 times faster. -understandable, probably not that heavy of a speedup
Change the base knockback of his sweetspotted back air to a strict horizontal one. - that would be OP as hell, its trivial to combo into that.
Change the knockback growth of his up air to one which is comboable. -its a fantastic kill move, why would you want to reduce its KBG?
Speed up the wind up to his forward air and make the last hitbox of the attack draw in towards Ness. -We could also just make his fair remove the no flinch portions as well.
No freefall after airbourne PK Flash.
For starters.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I don't agree with any of those changes for ness either. Ness' bair is already really good; if he gets any changes it would be something small, but sweet. He's a pretty solid character as is. He's just not phenomenal. Which is fine.

 

[thesage]

You make it sound so easy.
It's not.
If Fox is smack dab in the middle, there's no shining out of it, you'd have to slowly wiggle your way to the edge of it, then shine.

If Marth can counter while being burned by pk fire, I'm pretty sure Fox can shine while in it...

All of her ground moves , and I do mean all, can be easily outspaced.

So can Ness's...?

Maybe at low percentages, on Fox or something.

Um, uair is his best combo move right now (unless you count throws, then it's d-throw).

Edgeguarding Ike from directly above him is not really a reliable position to be in, but if Ness can do it, then it means something.

He can also pk flash him, but that still doesn't have anything to do with dair's startup lag...

And it is, my point is that air buffs would make a better investment to building him as a character.

His aerial game only needs a few tweeks for it to be good.

Doesn't have to be gamebreaking to be good.

But it's not good when tons of other characters have better ones. All of his characteristics are either average or subpar. There's nothing "amazing" about him.

But that's the thing, there is no sweetspot on Brawl+, only a select few recoveries have that, because of this, most characters are forced to recover from below the stage. Ness can easily have a charged PK Flash waiting for them before they ever snap to the ledge, just have to do it well in advance, since non multi jump characters can't stall off stage as much as they used to, their window of safety isn't very big.

You can grab the edge from a mile away still...

Change the base knockback of his sweetspotted back air to a strict horizontal one.

Bair is good enough as it is and doesn't need buffing.

No freefall after airbourne PK Flash.

That's kinda useless but =/. If you guys feel like doing it...

Wow, please don't start saying Ness's ground game is worse than Jiggly's. LOL
The only ground moves I use are Utilt, dash attack (for surprises), and that's about it. Fsmash is great WHEN IT HITS, which is usually never, Dsmash is awful, and Usmash has too much lag to combo with. Jab and Ftilt have a range of 1cm, and dtilt...sucks.

Sounds like Ness' ground game... except running attack is a little better... lol.

Sage stop whining about Ness, good lord.

He sucks and people are thinking he's a good character. I was better off when I played Pikachu on Saturday and I've never used Pikachu seriously before lol.

Lol, Ness is a good character (nair much?). We'll prolly give him some help but you are way over dramatizing it sage.

Nair sucks now...

Change the knockback growth of his up air to one which is comboable. -its a fantastic kill move, why would you want to reduce its KBG?

Make it so that it combos and kills? It did that in melee somewhat. It's reduced range from melee would balance out it's newfound power while still retaining it's old comboability

This'll be my last post on this unless people want me to post more. Kinda busy now...

 

[CountKaiser]

Ness is good, its just that everyone else is awesome.

But in all seriousness, Ness is pretty good. Dthrow comboes into anything, from what it looks like. PK Fire is still stupid, and PK Thunder gimps are always awesome to pull off.

 

[kupo15]

I never found ness to have problems. He is pretty beast and has great combos.

 

[Sukai]

My point's been made and he'll only keep fighting them, no point if he refuses to understand, no offense.

I would just like to address his comment about how "Marth can counter in a PK Fire, so Fox should be able to shine out of it."
Well sage, Marth isn't a fast faller therefore he is allowed considerably more time to move before hitting the ground again.
I don't want to start throwing around the word "stupid", but that specific comment of yours was anything but smart. That's like saying Marth can escape Pikachu's down throw chain grab well before 90%, so Fox can too. Marth doesn't even fall at normal speeds, he's floaty, Fox is the fastest faller in the game. No well informed player would compare them like that.

 

[[TSON]]

You can DI her dthrow. Ivysaur's pretty good enough, just use the other pokemon.

I don't like the other pokemon though. That's like forcing a Zelda main to use Shiek..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pbDtUvE4kU

1:40-1:50

@_@

**** uair D;

Why didn't I think of that?

 

[storm92]

Ivysaur is beast, his only real weakness is once he's off the stage, you have to work to get back on.
Uair combos are insane, that's all that can be said.

 

[trojanpooh]

I was messing around with 4.1 and here is what I concluded.

*Ness + Bat + Chwing! = god tier in awesomeness
*Mario's Fludd may be a tad OP

I had other stuff, but whenever I go over to my computer to post about it I forget a bunch of stuff.

 

[shanus]

Wait did someone just say Ness' nair sucks? That move makes me piss my pants in fear.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I don't like the other pokemon though. That's like forcing a Zelda main to use Shiek..


@_@

**** uair D;

Why didn't I think of that?

Uair doesn't combo into itself that well with DI. Ivysaur is pretty good and can be devastating at times but looking at how easy it is to get him off the stage now it takes some work to really make use of him. Most people are surprised/can't handle him because he wasn't seen much in vBrawl and Brawl+ unlocked combo potential in him thats always been there.

I also have Ivysaur videos in my sig/channel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQuV-5qfxyc&fmt=18

Ness' nair could be better at low percents maybe. If it tripped into a free throw or something else he could be pretty scary. The Fair buff is a good idea. Also maybe his Usmash could end faster?

 

[Sukai]

Wait did someone just say Ness' nair sucks? That move makes me piss my pants in fear.

Dude, your 4/20 720pm 4.1 Beta has serious camera issues oh Mushroomy Kingdom.
Everything else is perfect though.

 

[GHNeko]

I was messing around with 4.1 and here is what I concluded.

*Ness + Bat + Chwing! = god tier in awesomeness.

oh god this.

*Mario's Fludd may be a tad OP

Dont you even dare. I will bite you.