The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[goodoldganon]

Hey shanus, what's this supposed to mean:


Did the Gentleman just get Meleefied? D:

Yes
10chars

 

[IC3R]

Yes
10chars

Dammit. Was that to ruin the "vacuum" effect?



Are you sure we aren't making Melee 2.0? D:

 

[goodoldganon]

Dammit. Was that to ruin the "vacuum" effect?



Are you sure we aren't making Melee 2.0?

I'm not really a fan of it either since it won't link into his rapid jab, something that was always dumb in Melee. It's a beta so talk about it and why changes are good or bad. But don't do each change individually. Play around with the changes more then get back to us.

 

[IC3R]

I'm not really a fan of it either since it won't link into his rapid jab, something that was always dumb in Melee. It's a beta so talk about it and why changes are good or bad. But don't do each change individually. Play around with the changes more then get back to us.

Alright, I'll get in what I can...

 

[KAN]

I love Brawl+! It's awesome!

However I have a slight problem:
The Luigi's mansion code doesn't work for me. It freezes the game when I select Luigi's mansion.
Does anybody know how to fix that?

May someone help me with this?

 

[GHNeko]

Are you using NTSC or PAL?

 

[goodoldganon]

May someone help me with this?

I'm unsure what to tell you. I haven't had freezing problems on the mansion.

 

[Sukai]

Well first, Fox has lost a good deal of his combo ability, ruining his primary combo move, then trying to replace it with neutral air, which does **** with good DI.
Up tilt doesn't combo anymore.

And all this may sound subtle, but people have to remember that because he's a fast faller, he's vulnerable to alot of combos and gimps that don't work on other characters.
Plus Wolf can infinite him with his shine, and I mean a true infinite, unescapable and can be met with a down smash to kill.
Fox's infinite on Wolf wasn't true, it was a lock and can be escaped. I'm all for the down air nerf OR the up tilt nerf OR the neutral air nerf, but not all three. Fox was never considered to be overpowered, so why was he nerfed at all? Now he's like the (normal Brawl) Falcon of Brawl+.

And give Wolf's shine some Knockback gain!

 

[IC3R]

May someone help me with this?

Question: Where do you live? (What country?)

 

[Revven]

May someone help me with this?

Have you tried playing it in normal Brawl to see if it is the stage itself?

 

[goodoldganon]

Well first, Fox has lost a good deal of his combo ability, ruining his primary combo move, then trying to replace it with neutral air, which does **** with good DI.
Up tilt doesn't combo anymore.

And all this may sound subtle, but people have to remember that because he's a fast faller, he's vulnerable to alot of combos and gimps that don't work on other characters.
Plus Wolf can infinite him with his shine, and I mean a true infinite, unescapable and can be met with a down smash to kill.
Fox's infinite on Wolf wasn't true, it was a lock and can be escaped. I'm all for the down air nerf OR the up tilt nerf OR the neutral air nerf, but not all three. Fox was never considered to be overpowered, so why was he nerfed at all? Now he's like the (normal Brawl) Falcon of Brawl+.

And give Wolf's shine some Knockback gain!

Ok here's the deal.

1. Wolf's shine is buggy and too easy to combo from. We really like the idea with it, but it's just not turning out the way we planned. We will be messing with it more and more.

2. U-tilt should still combo well, especially SH aerials. What U-tilt won't do is combo into itself once you get into decent percentages. What specific combos could you do before that you can't now?

3. The n-airplane change is buff...it should increase the knockback. Double check with Leaf on that on what he was exactly going for.

4. The d-air change is to prevent the move from being so spammy, but 100% was too much. We'll continue to mess with it.

Keep messing with the set and give more feedback on the other characters, remember it's just a beta.

 

[shanus]

Knuxrouge, he stills combos very well. I actually love the new utilt.

 

[Sukai]

On the neutral air subject, I was never able to combo it into an up smash without moving until now, plus previously I was able to kill with it, not any more, the knockback didn't look nor feel like it increased, but the angle changed, it's slightly more comboable, but DI defeats the purpose and fails to compensate.

Once again, Fox was a perfectly balanced character, I didn't see any grounds to change him.
Nerfing his down air is like nerfing Rob's down smash, or Marth's Dancing Blade. You're just holding the player's hand.
Down air is an entirely unsafe approach, and is extremely predictable and easily punished, out spaced, and out prioritorized.
There's little reason to nerf it, it doesn't beat alot of the more safer spammable moves.

 

[Rkey]

Guys, I made a zip contaning all you need to play the PAL version of 4.0 as it is now, should I upload it somewhere?

 

[IC3R]

Has anyone have a problem taunting with the Wild Pokemon? It caused a freeze for me (then again, I was using textures, so idk).

Also, Sonic feels really strange now. With that super fast U- and D-Smash, I'm having to relearn the timing for them, and it's REALLY hard >w<
Capt. Falcon doesn't feel that different, other than the mini-Knee knocking my opponent a million miles away...that's kind of annoying. You may as well just get rid of his rapid punch altogether...
Charizard plays amazingly, I like the F-Air a whole lot better now. Spiking is much easier, too.

I haven't gotten the chance to test out Lucas or anyone else though...

 

[Almas]

Eh, if it works, then contact me using AIM (AlmasAmedor) and I'll happily put it in the OP.

 

[V-K]

BTW: I have also the problem that Luigis Mansion doesn´t work. It doesn´t freeze the game but the stage is normal still with the house.

 

[Revven]

Has anyone have a problem taunting with the Wild Pokemon? It caused a freeze for me (then again, I was using textures, so idk).

Also, Sonic feels really strange now. With that super fast U- and D-Smash, I'm having to relearn the timing for them, and it's REALLY hard >w<

We didn't mean to change the startup, Alopex thought that's what we wanted but we just wanted wind-down. He's fixed it now so, it should be added some time soon. Dsmash is too good though.

 

[IC3R]

We didn't mean to change the startup, Alopex thought that's what we wanted but we just wanted wind-down. He's fixed it now so, it should be added some time soon. Dsmash is too good though.

C-C-C-Combo Breaker

Man, I can't wait until my buddy gets back from Texas. He's gonna have a ball with Sonic

 

[Sukai]

waitwaitwait......
Melee Falcon's second knee of **** is back?

That's awesome!

Spoiler

But should stay in Melee

 

[IC3R]

waitwaitwait......
Melee Falcon's second knee of **** is back?

That's awesome!

Spoiler

But should stay in Melee

<- thiiiiiiis

Falcon doesn't need another knee move. He grows a third knee by using his new Final Smash.

 

[Rkey]

Eh, if it works, then contact me using AIM (AlmasAmedor) and I'll happily put it in the OP.

Thing is not everything's in there yet, and I haven't got aim

 

[storm92]

On the neutral air subject, I was never able to combo it into an up smash without moving until now, plus previously I was able to kill with it, not any more, the knockback didn't look nor feel like it increased, but the angle changed, it's slightly more comboable, but DI defeats the purpose and fails to compensate.

Once again, Fox was a perfectly balanced character, I didn't see any grounds to change him.
Nerfing his down air is like nerfing Rob's down smash, or Marth's Dancing Blade. You're just holding the player's hand.
Down air is an entirely unsafe approach, and is extremely predictable and easily punished, out spaced, and out prioritorized.
There's little reason to nerf it, it doesn't beat alot of the more safer spammable moves.

I fail to see the problem with the nerfed Dair.
It was subject to being spammed without 100% ALR, and although it isn't an OP move we tried to balance it out some.
Keep in mind that the move has 11 frames of landlag, while opponents are stuck in 18-20 of hitstun (18 if FFer, 20 if floaty, 19 in between). You therefore have 7-9 frames to do another move and follow up with it if the opponent is frame perfect on doing an action, but keep in mind even these take more frames to start (ie putting up a shield, dash, roll, attacking back). Within those 7-9 frames you can do all of these: jab, grab, Utilt, shine, Dsmash, and at higher % Usmash. So you have ample time to work with to combo, it simply requires you as the Fox player are quicker.

Nair is perfect with the changes, the BKB was increased slightly to allow for better comboing and because it was overall a very weak sex kick. If you don't like the strong hit part of the move, then start the Nair sooner on the approach so you hit with the weak, and you can combo out of them like normal. It only serves to give you as a Fox player more options.

Utilt on the other hand was added KB to get rid of some Dair-->Utilt combos at low %'s, as you could repeat these up to 3 times on chars for massive damage. You're limited to 2 now, and the Utilt sends higher up--better for Uair juggling as well as being able to kill now as a quick move at 130%+.

The BR does not believe that Fox is an OP character, but it was determined that a few moves could be edited. I don't see this necessarily as a nerf or buff, but instead as move tweaking that Fox mains will have to simply work with and incorporate. As a Fox secondary, these changes felt great and I believe he's much less of a "nub-friendly" character and it takes slightly more effort and planning to combo with him.

 

[Sukai]

Well storm, as a Fox main (and not in the general sense), I can say that all 3 changes are unnecessary. Maybe one or two of them, but not all three. Again, down air is practical, predictable, and unsafe. Spamming it was never an issue, because people would just guard and punish, thus leading the player to down air less. I don't know where you got that frame data, but I've been, grabbed, jabbed and perfect shielded too many times to count after successfully connecting a down air, it only truly combos at high percentages. Who cares about "Nub friendly" Dancing Blade is Nub friendly, and spammable but unlike Fox's down air, it's safe. Rob's down smash is Nub friendly, spammable and safe as well. Fox barely combos anymore, his primary method is gone, neutral air just barely compensates only at low percentages, because it's DI escapable higher in, and Up tilt just plain sucks now. Fox is a ground fighter, putting his foe in the air is a bad thing. Sure, it's inevitable at a certain point, but now that point happens much earlier, because on move sends them to safety, and other move is DI escapeable, and the other move--that helped keep them on the ground--is near worthless for combos. You can string, at the most, 3 moves together with proper DI on your opponent's end. Don't keep the ALR at 100%, tone it down, that's too excessive.

I smell anti-Fox bias, because there are better characters with moves just as "Nub friendly" and even even more safe, but it's Fox who gets nerfed.
I don't see how a character who isn't considered overpowered would deserve nerfs like that.

 

[GHNeko]

lolwut @ DB.

You spam DB and you get *****. You get DB blocked and you get *****. You whiff DB and you get *****. You approach with DB and you get *****. <_<

 

[Sukai]

lolwut @ DB.

You spam DB and you get *****. You get DB blocked and you get *****. You whiff DB and you get *****. You approach with DB and you get *****. <_<

"DB" is considered to be one of Marth's best moves.
It spaces, it's fast, it eats enough shield to be concerned over, it combos into each hit, and it's unnaturally hard to DI out of.

Fox's down air is just fast, and kinda combos into each hit.

 

[BearJaw]

Hello, I might've posted this in the wrong thread so I'll try here. My texture hacks aren't working with Brawl+. I have the latest codeset and I have the necessary gct file in my 'codes' folder and a gct file in the 'pf' folder (for offline). Can someone help or provide me with what is supposed to be exactly where?

 

[storm92]

Believe me when I say that there is absolutely no "anti-Fox bias" in the BR.
leaf was the major driving force behind these changes, but the majority of the Back Room agreed with them and I still fail to see the problem.

We'll see about maybe bringing down the ALR right now, but unless my frame data I just told you is incorrect (and I'm nearly certain it is not) then I see there is no need.

 

[CloneHat]

From what I've heard, if Fox can still combo the same, there is no point at all in the dair nerf. Utilt is understandable, I actually support it. But nair? It was weak, it didn't combo well unless you flub, so why complain?

 

[storm92]

It actually seems more to me as a Dair buff, to be honest.
Due to the increased ALR, it won't make the opponent trip anymore, and retains the same combo ability it did before the supposed "nerf".
Its still a **** fast aerial.

 

[KAN]

I'm unsure what to tell you. I haven't had freezing problems on the mansion.

Question: Where do you live? (What country?)

I live in Germany, but I do use a NTSC Version of the game and of Ocarina.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Force PAL mode? Or do you have an NTSC Wii as well?

 

[shanus]

I don't think the dair needs the change tbh. I got punished for using it all the time. This is heightened moreso with shieldstun down to 2/2 now as well. Don't forget knux, its meant for testing

 

[goodoldganon]

lolwut @ DB.

You spam DB and you get *****. You get DB blocked and you get *****. You whiff DB and you get *****. You approach with DB and you get *****. <_<

I can't wait for DB to get it's just desserts.


Ok, so Fox changes. N-air is great. I can't see why anyone would argue against that. U-tilt is a nerf but U-tilt combos are lame and uniteresting. Do something new once and a while. Drill-> u-tilt x3 -> Drill -> U-tilt isn't cool or flashy. The U-tilt still combos very well. The D-air probably doesn't need a 100% ALR but I'll bring it up.

Long story short, it's not a buff or a nerf patch just adding some different variety to his playstyle. To honestly compare him to vBrawl Falcon is wrong and ignorant. Fox still has all the amazing tools he had before, you just might need to use some new ones now too.

 

[GHNeko]

"DB" is considered to be one of Marth's best moves.
It spaces, it's fast, it eats enough shield to be concerned over, it combos into each hit, and it's unnaturally hard to DI out of.

Fox's down air is just fast, and kinda combos into each hit.

It spaces? You dont use DB to space. You use it to punish.

Its only fast on the first swipe, and its not even that fast. The whole entire move is not fast at all.

It eats shield and it can shield stab if you already have a drained shield, if you ahve a full shield, or a slightly used shield, its nothing to worry over if you successfully block it. And if you do, marth gets grabbed and punished.

It comboed...into each it in normal Brawl and in melee. That's just how the move works.

And you can DI down and away the first 3 hits, and DI up on the last hit to save yourself.


>_> What are you on?

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

It spaces? You dont use DB to space. You use it to punish.

Its only fast on the first swipe, and its not even that fast. The whole entire move is not fast at all.

It eats shield and it can shield stab if you already have a drained shield, if you ahve a full shield, or a slightly used shield, its nothing to worry over if you successfully block it. And if you do, marth gets grabbed and punished.

It comboed...into each it in normal Brawl and in melee. That's just how the move works.

And you can DI down and away the first 3 hits, and DI up on the last hit to save yourself.


>_> What are you on?

Slap some common sense into him GHNeko! Haha.

About fox, nerf the utilt so it can still be used the same way, but can't be combo'd into ITSELF as much. Because that's the boring part, the repetition. I want like a max of 2 utilts before you have to switch to another move.

Dair, add a TINY bit more landing lag. Just a tiny bit. Enough to make the user think twice about randomly throwing it out there.

That's all fox needs IMO. He's not godly already, just annoying and not creative.

 

[shanus]

gonna be broadcasting: http://www.justin.tv/shanus19

 

[leafgreen386]

Ok, here's the laydown on the fox changes.

Fox dair:

Previous: 3 damage, 50 growth, 40 base, 285 angle, 50% ALR (6 frames of landlag)
New: 3 damage, 0 growth, 43 base, 285 angle, 100% ALR (11 frames of landlag)

Fox nair:

Previous 1 - 9 damage, 100 growth, 10 base, 20 angle
New 1 - 9 damage, 100 growth, 20 base, 50 angle

Previous 2 - 6 damage, 100 growth, 0 base, 20 angle
New 2 - 6 damage, 100 growth, 10 base, 50 angle

Fox utilt:

Previous 1 - 10 damage, 110 growth, 22 base, 110 angle
New 1 - 9 damage, 115 growth, 45 base, 84 angle

Previous 2 - 8 damage, 110 growth, 18 base, 84 angle
New 2 - 9 damage, 115 growth, 45 base, 84 angle

Previous 3 - 8 damage, 110 growth, 18 base, 80 angle
New 3 - 8 damage, 110 growth, 45 base, 80 angle

---

Those are the full changes made to the moves. Now, here is what they do:

For the dair change, the current base will give you between 18 and 20 frames of hitstun on the move, depending on how floaty the foe is. As storm said, floatier characters will suffer 20 frames of hitstun, while ff'ers will only have 18. This means that with the 11 frame landlag, fox has 7-9 frames of advantage, which is enough for everything he could do before the change except for usmash. Or dtilt against the fast fallers, but it was a rarely used move off of dair to begin with, and I couldn't make it possible to land on everyone without making floaties get hit by dair -> usmash. So against everyone, you can still combo into grab, utilt, shine, jab, or even dsmash, all from zero. Also, since the move has fixed knockback, it won't cause characters to trip anymore at high percents, causing you to miss your followups. My initial vision for this move was to let it combo into everything except usmash at low percents, and then around 110% let it combo into usmash. Unfortunately, the point at which floaties would be hit by usmash is considerably different from ff'ers, so I had to drop it.

Oh, and because the move now has fixed knockback, that means that the move combos equally at all percents. Which means... PLACEBO EFFECT ALERT. You thinking that the move combos better at high percents is completely false. You just happened to be going slower at low percents, which gave the illusion that it wouldn't combo. We may lower the ALR to 75% and then make the base 39, which would give exactly the same frame advantage but only 9 frames of lag.

Now, onto nair. This was done to let the move be used as a launcher as well as mid-combo. This is a buff to the move, not a nerf. The 50 degree angle means that fox should be able to follow up even with DI... it'll just be harder. If they DI away, fox should still barely be able to land another move, although he obviously won't be able to just stand still to do it. If they DI up, you hit them with an aerial. I don't see what the big issue here is.

Finally... utilt. The move combos into sh aerials at low percents, into fj aerials at mid to high percents, and kills around 130-140% (before, it wasn't killing until at least 170%). It won't combo into itself a bunch of times or into a dair -> utilt pillar more than once or twice, though, which is a major part of the change. You have to use your other aerials to combo from it now.

I don't know where you get off saying that the air is not fox's element, seeing as how he can easily uair, fair, bair, or nair someone in the air and combo them. His main grounded moves that work as combo moves are his dthrow (launches them into the air), utilt (this combo'd into itself and pseudo-pillar'd with dair before, so I admit this was a more "grounded" move), usmash (which launches them into the air), and dash attack (which again... is a launcher). Yet, almost everything fox uses to keep a combo going is an aerial, which can bring an opponent back down to be hit by a grounded move and continue the combo. Fox is not bad in the air at all, and in fact, his combo game (even without utilt -> dair stuff) revolves around it. As do most characters, for that matter.

Also, you mention marth's sideB. Well, we are nerfing it. We just haven't put it in the set, yet. The current test set is somewhat rough. We don't have all the changes in it we want to make for the official release yet, and we have changes in it right now that we'll probably remove before the official release, as well.

It comboed...into each it in normal Brawl and in melee. That's just how the move works.

And you can DI down and away the first 3 hits, and DI up on the last hit to save yourself.

The move didn't actually combo into each consecutive hit in melee, and it could also be SDI'd behind marth to completely avoid the last hit. The move being only 4 frames of startup and dishing out such incredible damage and killing is what makes it such a great punishment move. No, it isn't an approach move. Yes, you can get punished for being dumb with it. But it is a very very good move. Marth received an angle change on his fair to make it work more effectively for combos, which was added in to help compensate for the nerf he will be receiving on the sideB.

 

[Sukai]

At Storm: Down air buff!? Are you saying that slowing the ending lag of a move back to it's default, in which alot of characters can strike you even after being hit, a BUFF!?
NO! NO! DOES NOT COMPUTE!! DOES NOT COMPUTE!!

At shanus: I haven't forgotten, but should still state my case so my word isn't just written off as "some nub *****ing"

At goodoldganon: Being uninteresting is hardly grounds to modify a character, "use what works" is the common pro tip. Not the Fox player's fault if the opponent keeps getting hit by it. Again, this nerf is just symbolically holding the player's hand in contrast to them learning how to guard and punish an attack, that is predictable, unsafe, and can't space.
The comparison is an exaggeration, but it's the perfect analogy, compared to even the last nightly build, this Fox has subpar combo ability. With good DI, the combo stops after like 3 moves.

At Neko:
Are you saying that Dancing Blade is not a good move?
What are you on?

At leaf: Did you factor in the frame data of other characters, quite a few of them have jabs that come out in 2 frames, just enough to make down air completely ****ing useless for combos. And now it has a set knockback? This makes down air really useless, because it garners no advantage at higher percents!
That's a Bad Thing, it's never combo into up smash, and characters can still jab their way out of that.
Did you even factor that in?
DI stops neutral air's combo ability. There should never be any "just barely"s.
Air isn't Fox's element, he's stronger and pulls more weight on the ground, in aerial combat, he's hindered by lack of range and priority. He's a fast faller meaning that he performs worse in the air than any other character, because he cannot recover from attacks well, this is the reason why he's easily gimped off stage. This is why a back air off the ledge is guaranteed suicide. Compare him to Marth, Falco, Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, Luigi or Game & Watch.
It's not his strong point.
Only down air was good for Fox's combos, oh but that's null and void now.
Up air doesn't combo, back air doesn't combo, forward air only combo's if short hopped fast falled, and neutral air "just barely" combos.
Down air was his staple, from there were ground attacks.

 

[leafgreen386]

At leaf: Did you factor in the frame data of other characters, quite a few of them have jabs that come out in 2 frames, just enough to make down air completely ****ing useless for combos. And now it has a set knockback? This makes down air really useless, because it garners no advantage at higher percents!
That's a Bad Thing, it's never combo into up smash, and characters can still jab their way out of that.
Did you even factor that in?
DI stops neutral air's combo ability. There should never be any "just barely"s.
Air isn't Fox's element, he's stronger and pulls more weight on the ground, in aerial combat, he's hindered by lack of range and priority. He's a fast faller meaning that he performs worse in the air than any other character, because he cannot recover from attacks well, this is the reason why he's easily gimped off stage. This is why a back air off the ledge is guaranteed suicide. Compare him to Marth, Falco, Meta Knight, Jigglypuff, Luigi or Game & Watch.
It's not his strong point.
Only down air was good for Fox's combos, oh but that's null and void now.
Up air doesn't combo, back air doesn't combo, forward air only combo's if short hopped fast falled, and neutral air "just barely" combos.
Down air was his staple, from there were ground attacks.

I wish you would read what I said. It would go so much further to understanding what changes actually took place. Fox's dair has a 7-9 frame advantage. That means that anything he has that's 7 or less frames in length (meaning utilt, grab, shine, jab, and dsmash) are all guaranteed from a dair. You're just not doing them fast enough. If you're not good enough to time it, then set your buffer higher.

And why shouldn't there be any "just barely"s? Seriously... why? "Just barely"s make the game more interesting, unlike the dial-a-combo ssb64 had and what currently exists for quite a few characters in brawl+. Basically, you're saying that the reason you don't like this change is because you don't want to actually have to work for your combos. Um... too bad?

You also seem to be confusing "the air" with "offstage." Fox sucks offstage. That's a given. He has a couple options for recovery, but he isn't meant to play offstage for long periods of time. But the air is where fox combos. He continues his combos by linking the air into the ground. Fox can in fact combo uair -> uair at certain percents. He can combo from his bair (try using the sourspot sometime). And now he can combo more effectively from his nair. You talk about how changing fox like this holds the hand of his opponents. Well, guess what? Leaving him how he was before the change is just holding the hand of the people playing him. Apparently, as a fox main, you want the game to hold your hand for you in your combos. I suggest you try playing more with the changes. From the sounds of things, you haven't even tried to use fox's other moves for comboing since utilt -> dair was so easy.

Also, where do you get off saying that a bair offstage is suicide for fox? Fox can easily bair or nair offstage and make it back. Unless you meant by the opponent, in which case... duh. Fox gets edgeguarded easily. It's part of the character.