The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[Rudra]

i have been thikning alot about brawl+, how people are complaining that it is a bit too easy, and there is a limited amount of depth. i was wondering if it is possible to add stale moves to just kill moves (smash attacks generally), and leave all other moves alone. this would mean that u have to be abit more strategic about what moves u use, and would reduce spamming. and for all moves once the code comes into play that means the % goes stale but not the knockback. i think this is really needed in brawl+, there needs to be a bit more depth

i thought that stale moves was one of the best ideas in brawl, and since brawl+ is a combination of all the best parts of 64,melee and brawl, i really thing stale moves deserves to stay, just with a slight alteration

While I see what you're saying here, adding stale moves to Smashes doesnt seem...necessary (at least imo). Its not like anyone is going to sit there and spam a Smash, and if they do so effectively and are not being punished by their opponent, then something is wrong.

I'm just hoping that we get the damage stale code.

 

[Revven]

Damage stale is all we need jalued. If someone is spamming a Smash attack, it is not because we took out stale moves, it is because it's working against you and you need to figure out a way around it and a way to beat it. In other words, punish them for spamming just like you would in regular Brawl. Stale moves didn't stop spamming, if anything, it encouraged it.

 

[jalued]

While I see what you're saying here, adding stale moves to Smashes doesnt seem...necessary (at least imo). Its not like anyone is going to sit there and spam a Smash, and if they do so effectively and are not being punished by their opponent, then something is wrong.

I'm just hoping that we get the damage stale code.

i dont just mean smashes though, any moves that is primaraly used for killing- falcons knee, ganons dair, zeldas side b, TL up air etc, these moves should also have a stale move factor them. however combo moves such as fox's uptilt, shieks ftilt, falcons nair etc should just be affected by the stale %, so that they can still combo. grabs should be unaffected by stale moves as well. i hope this is possible in coding, would offer another way of balancing characters as well (such as MK's shuttle loop, dair etc)

 

[Sukai]

Damage stale is all we need jalued.

Is it possible to look into Normal Brawl's stale move system, and edit it to exclude knockback?

 

[Revven]

i dont just mean smashes though, any moves that is primaraly used for killing- falcons knee, ganons dair, zeldas side b, TL up air etc, these moves should also have a stale move factor them. however combo moves such as fox's uptilt, shieks ftilt, falcons nair etc should just be affected by the stale %, so that they can still combo. grabs should be unaffected by stale moves as well. i hope this is possible in coding, would offer another way of balancing characters as well (such as MK's shuttle loop, dair etc)

The thing is, knockback stale DIDN'T balance anything at all. It hurt and held back characters. It was one of the main fundamental problems of Brawl. Knockback stale would only make matches last longer than they already do (even if it is for specific killing moves). It would punish you for using a KO move.

Putting knockback stale back on and only for kill moves limits the character, it doesn't help anything.

 

[Deleted member]

someone asked about the PAL gct loadeer, I provided a link in the OP.

I also found another bug, which more than likely has to do with a wrong breakpoint in the momentum code.
here's what should happen:
you start running and the momentum you have will be transferred if you jump.

this is what happens now:
you start running and if you jump your momentum would be as if you were in a full run, even at frame 1 of the dash

 

[Sukai]

That sounds epic.

 

[V-K]

@paprika killer
Tags in Replays don´t work for me.

 

[Deleted member]

have you saved a new replay and tried that?

I never use replays, so I didn't really test it, but I'm pretty sure I found the right adress

 

[V-K]

Yup, saved a new replay.

But isn´t that the right code: 0404BE7C 38A00000
Instead of that one: 0404BE70 38A00000

??

(Found the first one in another thread).

I´m gonna test it.

EDIT: Yes, the 0404BE7C 38A00000 shows tags

 

[jalued]

The thing is, knockback stale DIDN'T balance anything at all. It hurt and held back characters. It was one of the main fundamental problems of Brawl. Knockback stale would only make matches last longer than they already do (even if it is for specific killing moves). It would punish you for using a KO move.

Putting knockback stale back on and only for kill moves limits the character, it doesn't help anything.

wouldnt have to be all kill moves, jsut the spamable ones, such as kirbys fsamsh, fox's upsmash, falcons knee etc. things like spikes, wolfs bair, samus' fsamsh etc could all just be left alone. im not saying all kill moves should go stale, but some like MK's up b might be better off with that limitation, and let them look at other alternatives to kill. only a few moves i think should be affected, and that very close analysis should be taken before using it on a character.some characters like sonic who have a really hard time killing should not have any stale moves, of course.

 

[Deleted member]

Yup, saved a new replay.

But isn´t that the right code: 0404BE7C 38A00000
Instead of that one: 0404BE70 38A00000

??

(Found the first one in another thread).

I´m gonna test it.

EDIT: Yes, the 0404BE7C 38A00000 shows tags

ok, I'll update the codeset

 

[Rudra]

wouldnt have to be all kill moves, jsut the spamable ones, such as kirbys fsamsh, fox's upsmash, falcons knee etc.

I thought some cooldown lag was added to Kirby's FSmash. Fox's USmash being affected by the Stale move syst. would't make much of a difference since he can combo into it with Dair. Falcon's Knee? He usually has to set you up to have a chance to nail you with it via throw, Nair, Uair, ect. He cant just fly at a good opponent with it on a whim thanks to his low overall priority.

MK's up b might be better off with that limitation, and let them look at other alternatives to kill.

His UpB already lost a lot of it's kill potential. If it were to be nerfed more, it's trajectory may just be made more vertical I think. There's still seems to be no need to implement stale moves on certain kill moves...

 

[Fizzi]

Which line is the line for default stock settings? Although it is Brawl+ and the games are a bit faster, I still prefer playing 3 stocks. Which number should I change?

 

[zxeon]

The stale moves system is anti competitive since it rewards players that fall for the same move over and over by having them take less damage. It looks pretty on paper but in practice all it does is make matches longer.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

is it possible to add stale damage? like the % of a move decreases but not the knockback?

 

[Revven]

Skip, that's what we want to do. It should be possible, but, we are not 100% sure.

 

[zxeon]

The reason knock back decreases as well with stale move is the fault of the way Brawl calculates knock back.

If you wanted to make a stale moves system that didn't decrease knock back you would have toc change the way the game calculates.

 

[trojanpooh]

If we could change them separately, we could set the KB modifier to X1 throughout.

 

[CloneHat]

Is it possible to set the KB modifier to lessen strength ever 10000 times or so? That would work.

 

[cman]

Any system that can actually reward getting hit by an attack, like the stale moves system in brawl did, is dumb for a competative game. For example, if you are just below killing percetage against a snake utilt, it is better to take the hit, since it won't kill if he hits with it on the next hit too.

Edit- Why would we want to add damage stale for that matter either? If the person keeps getting hit by the same attacks, that's their fault.

 

[Problem2]

Every time I play, I can't help but feel that shieldstun is still too high. The currently formula used is

(shieldstun*14 + 20) / 5

I think it should be

(shieldstun*14 + 15) / 5

From what I understand. We raised shieldstun to allow more options to the offense because in vBrawl, everything is working against aggressiveness. In Brawl+, we take pride that it is indeed more agressive, but at the same time we are trying to achieve a balance much like Melee had between offense and defense.

With the current hitstun, many moves are too safe. Most aerials are safe on block and in fact give the attacker a slight frame advantage if the aerial is already quick. With the reduced shieldstun, both players are usually free at about the same time for the average move. Some moves still come out quicker than the shielder, but it becomes insignificant at this point. The overall result of this is that it forces players to space their slower moves so that they cannot get caught in jab combos or grabs from the shielder.

Lowering the shieldstun also greatly help big characters such as Bowser, King Dedede, and Ganondorf. Now, they are actually able to often retaliate out of their shields with their bigger range while quicker and more offensive character often cannot.

This also helps with fighting Marth's dancing blade. There is a very small window where you can drop your shield long enough to attempt a powershield allowing you to escape dancing blade. It is not long enough to give a character a chance to grab.

 

[Revven]

Edit- Why would we want to add damage stale for that matter either? If the person keeps getting hit by the same attacks, that's their fault.

Not just for spamming moves, the following:

1. Nerfs Utilt spam quite a deal (namely Fox's which does 10% per hit if you hit with the right part of it). Even if Utilts are escapable, you can't deny that they do incredible amounts of damage after being done 2-3 times consecutively.

2. Nerfs projectiles like Fox's and Falco's (and to a lesser extent, Wolf's). Fox's lasers do a lot of damage if you do not shield them and same with Falco's. Damage stale would control their projectiles.

3. Any other B moves like Marth's Dancing Blade doing a ****load of damage like it does now. It wouldn't weaken its KO potential but, it would weaken its ability to get you there faster.

See, it's multiple things, not just one thing. We wouldn't put damage stale in if it was for a reason like you said. The MAIN reason is projectile spam and Utilt damage being too ridiculous.

 

[Sph34r]

How does snapshot loading work? (is this the right thread?)

 

[cman]

Not just for spamming moves, the following:

1. Nerfs Utilt spam quite a deal (namely Fox's which does 10% per hit if you hit with the right part of it). Even if Utilts are escapable, you can't deny that they do incredible amounts of damage after being done 2-3 times consecutively.

2. Nerfs projectiles like Fox's and Falco's (and to a lesser extent, Wolf's). Fox's lasers do a lot of damage if you do not shield them and same with Falco's. Damage stale would control their projectiles.

3. Any other B moves like Marth's Dancing Blade doing a ****load of damage like it does now. It wouldn't weaken its KO potential but, it would weaken its ability to get you there faster.

See, it's multiple things, not just one thing. We wouldn't put damage stale in if it was for a reason like you said. The MAIN reason is projectile spam and Utilt damage being too ridiculous.

Why not just fix the specific moves that need to be toned down, because it is only a problem for certain moves on certain characters? A blanket mechanic, which is inherently anti competative, is a bit of an overreaction. For example, marth's utilt is not a rediculous damage builder, while fox's utilt is. Treating them both in the same way is a bad solution to the problem.

 

[Revven]

Why not just fix the specific moves that need to be toned down, because it is only a problem for certain moves on certain characters? A blanket mechanic, which is inherently anti competative, is a bit of an overreaction. For example, marth's utilt is not a rediculous damage builder, while fox's utilt is. Treating them both in the same way is a bad solution to the problem.

Because allowing moves to do the same damage every time is kinda ... ridiculous? Example: Fox's Utilt doing 6% every time accumulates, if he does it 2-3 times with his Utilt doing 6% every time it will do a total of: 2 times would be 12% and a third time would be 18%. For every three Utilts, he would do 18% every time, that's a little too good. Lowering it even further isn't the right way to go either. We'd have to lower it so it does 3% on every hit and I don't think that's the right way to solve things.

Also, that doesn't fix projectiles. Projectiles already do low percent damage, it's just that when you do them consecutively, it becomes quite powerful. I'm not sure on the %s for both Fox's and Falco's lasers but I am pretty sure they do a real low amount as is and lowering their % wouldn't fix the problem in any way for their projectiles. It would make them worse effectively while stopping and shutting down a strategy for approach. Not a good idea.

That's also nerfing them specifically when they don't require nerfs at all.

 

[Dark Sonic]

This also helps with fighting Marth's dancing blade. There is a very small window where you can drop your shield long enough to attempt a powershield allowing you to escape dancing blade. It is not long enough to give a character a chance to grab.

Actually...it is.

Drop shield:7 frames
Raise shield:1 frame

7+1=8

Grab (non tether):7-8 frames.

That's right, the window is EXACTLY THE SAME.

Makes ya think doesn't it.

Personally, I think the shieldstun is just fine on strong hits. However, my biggest gripe with shieldstun right now is rapid jabs/multihit moves. Currently, most rapid hit moves lock you in your shield, meaning you are unable to drop it entirely (you are in shieldstun the entire time) and litterally cannot do anything except watch your shield get eaten until they shieldstab you. This is especially apparent against larger characters (especially Bowser, who would otherwise be able to up B his way through these moves). You know sometimes I just want to let go of my shield and take the hit so that my shield doesn't take so much damage...but I can't do that because even if I let go of the shield button I'm still stuck in my shield.

 

[Greenpoe]

i have been thikning alot about brawl+, how people are complaining that it is a bit too easy, and there is a limited amount of depth. i was wondering if it is possible to add stale moves to just kill moves (smash attacks generally), and leave all other moves alone. this would mean that u have to be abit more strategic about what moves u use, and would reduce spamming. and for all moves once the code comes into play that means the % goes stale but not the knockback. i think this is really needed in brawl+, there needs to be a bit more depth

i thought that stale moves was one of the best ideas in brawl, and since brawl+ is a combination of all the best parts of 64,melee and brawl, i really thing stale moves deserves to stay, just with a slight alteration

This.

By adding stale moves, it adds depth. Sure, if you look at it for face value, it "punishes" them for trying to KO too early...but it adds strategy. It might get flamed because it wasn't in Melee or 64, but it adds depth because if you use your KO move and it does not KO, THEN you must either hit them a bunch of times to negate the stale-ness OR hit with a different KO move, or go for a gimp-KO. This is fair because it applies equally to both players. Furthermore, if your opponent used their best KO move and failed to KO with it, then you would know they wouldn't use it until at least 5 hits later, so they would likely change their playstyle, and you could react and try to exploit that. See? More competitive.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i think. spammy moves. shouldnt be spammy. wolfs smashes and stuff. b+ needs less cstick

 

[Deleted member]

lol I pretty much don't use cstick in B+ but I do/did a LOT in vanilla

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

This.

By adding stale moves, it adds depth. Sure, if you look at it for face value, it "punishes" them for trying to KO too early...but it adds strategy. It might get flamed because it wasn't in Melee or 64, but it adds depth because if you use your KO move and it does not KO, THEN you must either hit them a bunch of times to negate the stale-ness OR hit with a different KO move, or go for a gimp-KO. This is fair because it applies equally to both players. Furthermore, if your opponent used their best KO move and failed to KO with it, then you would know they wouldn't use it until at least 5 hits later, so they would likely change their playstyle, and you could react and try to exploit that. See? More competitive.

Ultimately you're still indirectly rewarded for taking a hit. Also, what if I want to use a KO move for other purposes than actually getting a KO? Getting punished for trying to take advantage of the versatility of moves and restricting options is kinda like the opposite of competitive.

 

[JCaesar]

I think whether stale moves is competitive is just a matter of perspective. On the one hand, stale moves rewards players who fall for the same thing over and over, by making it less effective each time. On the other hand, no stale moves rewards players who spam the same thing over and over, by keeping it strong.

IMO having stale moves adds depth. It makes you think more about what move to use, and anything that makes you think more strategically seems like a good thing to me in a competitive game. I'm not saying the no-stale-moves people's points are invalid, this is just my perspective. I thought it was one of the (very) few improvements Brawl had over Melee.

Of course, the problem in Brawl+ is that having stale moves makes some broken combos, and just having damage staling does not discourage move spamming, but at least it makes it less effective. I really don't like the idea of people abusing a very small fraction of a character's moveset to win. It makes for a very uninteresting metagame, and people may turn away from Brawl+ when they see people winning matches solely because of moves like Sheik's ftilt or Marth's side-B. I think this should be discouraged by keeping the spammable moves balanced in some way.

 

[leafgreen386]

Why would you want stale knockback on kill moves (which are much more frequently aerials than smashes, may I add)? Stale knockback ruins so many aspects of gameplay, I don't know why we're even considering it.

The spammiest moves are typically... what? B moves. Projectiles. They're very good without any sort of stale system in place. Even marth's dancing blade is a B move. Utilts aren't as much of a problem I don't think, but getting a free 3% every time you land falco's laser or being able to easily and effectively spam marth's forward B are quite problematic. So then... why don't we get a code that causes the stale move queue to ignore the stale multiplier on non-B moves but will still affect B moves? In melee, B moves suffered more from stale moves than regular attacks did (B moves had stale kb as well as damage in melee, whereas all other moves only had stale damage), and I think that may be a good way to go here. I actually don't think that any kind of stale system is necessary at all for A moves, but to lessen the impact of projectile spam, stale needs to at least affect B moves.

Of course, the problem in Brawl+ is that having no stale moves makes some broken combos, and just having damage staling does not discourage move spamming, but at least it makes it less effective. I really don't like the idea of people abusing a very small fraction of a character's moveset to win. It makes for a very uninteresting metagame, and people may turn away from Brawl+ when they see people winning matches solely because of moves like Sheik's ftilt or Marth's side-B. I think this should be discouraged by keeping the spammable moves balanced in some way.

I have an idea! Let's make the spammy moves less spammy by making them less spammy! Novel, isn't it? Making a naturally spammy move worse by making it worse instead of nerfing all moves through a universal mechanic... You don't need to discourage people from using their standard moves through the use of an arbitrary mechanic like stale moves. If a character uses almost exclusively one move to win, then perhaps the character was designed poorly to begin with, and needs to be looked at for changes. But there's nothing wrong with players using their good moves when the situation arises, which just so happens to be very often. It's just a player utilizing a good option at that point in time. They shouldn't be punished for knowing how to use their character. Stale moves ultimately punishes you for existing.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

On the other hand, no stale moves rewards players who spam the same thing over and over, by keeping it strong.

There's nothing wrong with that, since they're actually successful in landing that move. It's the other player's fault for getting hit by the same thing over and over. No stale moves rewards success (landing attacks) ; stale moves rewards failure (getting hit).

If projectiles are to be considered a whole other issue entirely, then if I'm not mistaken there are still plenty of ways of tweaking them without resorting to that mechanic.

 

[JCaesar]

I have an idea! Let's make the spammy moves less spammy by making them less spammy! Novel, isn't it? Making a naturally spammy move worse by making it worse instead of nerfing all moves through a universal mechanic... You don't need to discourage people from using their standard moves through the use of an arbitrary mechanic like stale moves. If a character uses almost exclusively one move to win, then perhaps the character was designed poorly to begin with, and needs to be looked at for changes. But there's nothing wrong with players using their good moves when the situation arises, which just so happens to be very often. It's just a player utilizing a good option at that point in time. They shouldn't be punished for knowing how to use their character. Stale moves ultimately punishes you for existing.

I don't disagree. I'm well aware that knockback staling is impossible in Brawl+, for the reasons I just said. When I mentioned Sheik's ftilt and Marth's side-B, I meant that those moves specifically need to be fixed, which I'm pretty sure is what you just implied too.

 

[Almas]

The functionality of such a code would be dependant on if the game tracks if there is a fundamental difference between a "Special" move and a "Non-Special" move. I don't think that would be the case, though.

 

[leafgreen386]

The functionality of such a code would be dependant on if the game tracks if there is a fundamental difference between a "Special" move and a "Non-Special" move. I don't think that would be the case, though.

The game has to keep track of your moves, somehow. As long as it denotes what move is what (ie. upB, downB, sideB, or neutral B), couldn't you just use those IDs for the code?

 

[MK26]

...It might get flamed because it wasn't in Melee or 64...

Although it was in different forms, stale moves was in both Smash 64 and Melee

And personally, I am for stale moves

 

[CloneHat]

Although it was in different forms, stale moves was in both Smash 64 and Melee

Elaborate. I never heard of this!

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Elaborate. I never heard of this!

Melee's stale moves affected only damage, and not knockback so it wasn't really noticeable.

64's stale moves was similar to Brawl's, but the decay wasn't as noticeable because it happened much slower.

If I recall correctly, that is.