The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Yuna]

Let's just all cry about how brawl isn't melee....

anyone need me to call a whambulance?

Seriously...we've heard "you melee guys" complain. We've heard it a billion times by now. Is this doing anything at all to help your cause? No...no it's not. But i do know a lot of people on here are sick of all the b*******, and definitely sick of all of these stupid, stupid posts with nothing but whining and complaining.

We understand what you don't like about brawl, and honestly, a mojority of "us brawl kids" like melee better anyway. I know i do...hell, I'd sell drugs to get L-canceling and hit stun back. I'd sell pounds and pounds of crack.

But it's not gona happen. Unless you guys find ways to hack the game, or someone finds "hitstun-adding-airdodge-locking-combo-dashing"....you're either going to have to live with brawl and learn how to play it competitively, or...i guess not post here and whine? That'd be nice at least.

Brawl is competitive, not in the same light as melee or in the same ways, but it is. I won't repost everything AZ said. But really, can some of you please stop QQ'ing?

Why is it that only the "whiners" are admonished? So AlphaZealot makes a thread telling us we're wrong and that Brawl is better. And we should all just shut up and let it stand unchallenged despite the fact that we disagree?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Camerican]

Loved the first post XD Excelent job man and id also like to point a few things out to nay sayers
1. Combos do exist try finding them XD
2. HEres a hint try using stale moves to weaken your attacks throw back it works frikin wonders (And gives yoshi a reason to wall of pain like one sick *** son of a *****)
3. punishing campers is alot easier then you think, just online its VERY hard XD
4. there may be no l-cancel but... more then 75% of the airials in this game you can short hop land them and have no lag.... XD
5. <3 for not getting shine spiked 1 time a match minimum XD
6. We can use someone other then marth fox or falco XD , or a good shiek to counter all of them.
7. wifi sucks
8. Need more cowbell

 

[flyinfilipino]

So AlphaZealot makes a thread telling us we're wrong and that Brawl is better.

Did he really say that?

 

[Reyairia]

Did he really say that?

From what I read, AZ said that Brawl was different and how it didn't mean it was worse than Melee, just different, not that it was better.

 

[flyinfilipino]

From what I read, AZ said that Brawl was different and how it didn't mean it was worse than Melee, just different, not that it was better.

That's what I picked up, and I think AZ even explicitly said that a few times.

 

[Koga]

That's what I picked up, and I think AZ even explicitly said that a few times.

Its ok, Yuna knows all. He's allways right /sarcasam

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why is it that only the "whiners" are admonished? So AlphaZealot makes a thread telling us we're wrong and that Brawl is better. And we should all just shut up and let it stand unchallenged despite the fact that we disagree?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

He never said that Brawl was better though. Re-read the first post Yuna you're missing the point of what is said.

Its ok, Yuna knows all. He's allways right /sarcasam

He certainly can back up his points and spell better than you MIRITE?

 

[Iwan]

Why is it that only the "whiners" are admonished? So AlphaZealot makes a thread telling us we're wrong and that Brawl is better. And we should all just shut up and let it stand unchallenged despite the fact that we disagree?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

First off, i'd like to say that nowhere in AZ's post did he say Brawl is better than melee. Not once did he say that.

As for the whiners being "admonished", probably because the "whiners" are annoying. No one wants to hear you complain...(btw, you're a pro at it yuna). We get what your problems are with it, but what's the point in complaining? Do you think you're going to affect an outcome? Change something?

I just don't see the point in doing so. Seems like all it does is divide the community, when really...we're all smash players, and 90 percent of us here are into it competitively.

Can't we all just get along?
lol...an over used saying, but nevertheless it applies here.

This is all eerily familiar to when Halo 1 pros (not all of them, but quite a few), stopped playing halo all together and still don't...because the Pistol's gone.

But what i'm saying is...why complain? What's it doing or accomplishing? What's it helping with and how can it help progress brawl?

 

[BlueYoshiPinkShoes]

AlphaZealot, mad props to you man.
Seriously one of the best and most intelligent posts I've seen on these boards lately.
Thank you for that wonderful bit of joy in the Melee-Brawl debate, a losing battle for Brawl as of late.

As for this argument...

Why is it that only the "whiners" are admonished? So AlphaZealot makes a thread telling us we're wrong and that Brawl is better. And we should all just shut up and let it stand unchallenged despite the fact that we disagree?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Yuna, would you like to show me the segment where Zealot ever said that Brawl was better and you are wrong?

Please, indulge.

 

[Koga]

He never said that Brawl was better though. Re-read the first post Yuna you're missing the point of what is said.




He certainly can back up his points and spell better than you MIRITE?

No, no he doesn't. His arguments stand unfounded based on his own opinions. Instead of seeing brawl as different and playing it for what it is. he Decides i doesn't have what it "needs" everything he says is virtually fabricated.

 

[thumbswayup]

No, no he doesn't. His arguments stand unfounded based on his own opinions. Instead of seeing brawl as different and playing it for what it is. he Decides i doesn't have what it "needs" everything he says is virtually fabricated.

Everything you say is ignorant.

 

[Reyairia]

Why is it that only the "whiners" are admonished?

Because you are going to be ignored and people are going to go play Brawl anyway, and the game hasn't come out for long enough for you to thoroughly complain about it. Wait a year or two then if the game hasn't "evolved" you can go back to complaining. I think you're not giving Brawl the chance.

 

[Bud]

There are many people not giving smash a chance. Those people incluede a lot of the respected melee players, and their "divine" influence has tainted many peoples view of brawl. Most of the people who hate brawl are simply saying what they have heard and probably have no true baring on what their saying, the others who are truly having trouble with brawl are just not used to it (many of those people are changing their minds everyday). And then there's the ones, like yuna, who think smash is a great game but compared to melee is nothing less than the foulest thing on earth. They are not giving the game the time it deserves. eveyone who was awesome at 64 sucked when melee came out, but as we got used to it we got good, hella good, and now that a new game is out again, they can't **** every time, though there are severe differences in melee and brawl does not mean brawl wont turn out to be EVEN BETTER than melee within a few years.(i can just imagine the flamez im going to get for that last sentence.) But the possibility is always there and with the amount of people playing brawl, i would say there is a big possibility of fast evolution, just think we only had 1/4 the people working on melee's metagame than we do brawl, that means there is more of a chance for amazing strategies to be developed.

 

[Egret]

^ how do you know that, My mommy told my time machines don't exist.

In my experience "unlikely" is usually used to describe an uncertain occurance, often in the future....

 

[Bud]

brawl doesn't provide as much oppurtunity for increasing knowledge or even the competetive seen.

I was talking about that part, how do you know that ^ a time machine or a opinion only after a few months. Because increasing knowledge takes time and the competitive players are playing no where near like how they will be playing in the future, becuase the system is so new many strateigies have yet to be seen and to think brawl contains no "knowledge" is you saying, I dont know much about brawl yet so there must be nothing to know. When there is PLENTY of room for improvement for Brawl players. Sorry for the rant, only explaining what I meant with my future joke.

 

[RDK]

I was talking about that part, how do you know that ^ a time machine or a opinion only after a few months. Because increasing knowledge takes time and the competitive players are playing no where near like how they will be playing in the future, becuase the system is so new many strateigies have yet to be seen and to think brawl contains no "knowledge" is you saying, I dont know much about brawl yet so there must be nothing to know. When there is PLENTY of room for improvement for Brawl players. Sorry for the rant, only explaining what I meant with my future joke.

This is the same ridiculous excuse EVERY pro-Brawl person uses. You're forgetting that we have 7+ years of Smash knowledge under our belts. We've been around the block a few times.

Saying that Brawl is a 100% complete new game and that we have no knowledge of how it's going to work whatsoever begs the question that we have no prior knowledge of the game Which is false.

 

[Bud]

its been more than 7 years man. Did you forget there was a smash before melee. We knew ALOT about 64, and it did not switch over to melee instantly. Same as brawl because there so different. Im stating its a possibility and your declaring a fact before anyone knows. What you say is in no way correct until enough time has passed, if by then, I will agree with you, but for now your jumping the gun just a little.

 

[Zankoku]

From Smashwiki:

Unlike SSBM, SSB never enjoyed a "real" professional competitive scene, but interest in SSB has been renewed in recent years with the popularity of SSBM, SSBB, and SSB online through Kaillera using the Project64K emulator.

So, no, we didn't know A LOT about Smash 64, because Smash wasn't actually that popular competitively back then.

 

[Bud]

ever seen an isai video, we knew a lot about 64 regardless what above said. not as much as melee, yes, but 64 to a point was mastered my infinite combos. 64 did have a competitive scene, though smaller than melee, it was there and many things were learned.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

There were a very few people that did know a lot about SSB. However, you cannot summarize those few persons under the general term of "we" as that would imply the entire community as of now, which is most certainly not the truth.

SSB's greatest problem which prevented its competitive scene from growing was, in my opinion, the lack of a central intelligence hub, like smashboards.

 

[Bud]

I played 64 religiously, we includes myself. And yes smashboards was the godsent thing that spread that small bit of knowledge (lots from small circles of local competitions between friends or small groups. ) into a mold of many different strategies. Helped a ton in spreading melee's metagame, and just think how many more people (with different strategies) brawl has early on in the smashboards community. Brawl may move faster with all these extra inputs smashboards gets now.

 

[Zankoku]

And thus we get back the RDK's point:

Saying that Brawl is a 100% complete new game and that we have no knowledge of how it's going to work whatsoever begs the question that we have no prior knowledge of the game Which is false.

 

[Bud]

^ read what you posted. Most of the pro melee arguments I have heard say that they know 100% about brawl at this point, that is what I am arguing. I NEVER said its a 100% complete new game, I said its has different features from melee that people are not used to. When I say we have no knowledge of how its going to work im saying, no one knows 100% if 1. camping will be the prevalent strategy. 2. smash cant be competitive 3. we kknow every thing about brawl there is to know (that one always makes me laugh). And remember man, this is all just my opinion, I am in no way trying to tell you what to think or trying to flame you, im just giving my opinion. I don't have to agree with anyone and neither do you, pure discussion.

 

[Avalon262]

Yeah, it's never fun when you face campers in either scenario. I loved our Diddy dittos at that C3 tourny. Despite both of us using projectiles, neither of us camped. We both charged head on to set up a bannana combo. Why can't everyone play like this?

people want to win since they paid money for the tournaments.

 

[thumbswayup]

people want to win since they paid money for the tournaments.

Maybe so, but there's something called honor involved in any competitive scene. How cowardly and pathetic must you be to run away and spam the entire match? I can't even imagine how someone would find playing like that fun. Besides, top level players such as azen, chillin, etc. do not camp in tourny matches (maybe just a little here and there) and they win consistently. So why can't everyone learn to play with some deceny instead of giving us reasons to hate the game even more.

 

[AlexX]

This is the same ridiculous excuse EVERY pro-Brawl person uses. You're forgetting that we have 7+ years of Smash knowledge under our belts. We've been around the block a few times.

Saying that Brawl is a 100% complete new game and that we have no knowledge of how it's going to work whatsoever begs the question that we have no prior knowledge of the game Which is false.

To be fair, despite the experience in searching for things in Melee, we can only search for things that we know how to look for. I think the fact we're still discovering new things in both Melee and Brawl shows that there's still a lot to learn about both games.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Maybe so, but there's something called honor involved in any competitive scene. How cowardly and pathetic must you be to run away and spam the entire match? I can't even imagine how someone would find playing like that fun.

You know, according to Sirlin, you sound just like a scrub.

 

[Zankoku]

This isn't Melee. Playing for fun != playing to win.

 

[thumbswayup]

I guess that's the sad truth of brawl.

 

[ArgentStew]

You're forgetting that we have 7+ years of Smash knowledge under our belts. We've been around the block a few times.

So what you're saying is that because you know how to find everything in one Smash game, you know how to find everything in all Smash games...despite how different they feel, how different they appear, how different their game engines are, or how different the gameplay becomes...

 

[FightCity]

lol yeah

You know, according to Sirlin, you sound just like a scrub.

I was kinda thinking that... but I got like 6 posts so I was too scared to say it. It really is spot on with Sirlin's definition of a scrub.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Saying that Brawl is a 100% complete new game and that we have no knowledge of how it's going to work whatsoever begs the question that we have no prior knowledge of the game Which is false.

Forward answers this for me:

Our own knowledge of brawl is limited, we just haven't had the time to internalize the game like we have with melee. Good melee players know the properties, offensively and defensively, of almost every attack in the game; how to set it up/approach with it, where the move sends them, how they should DI it, what can counter a follow up to that move, and how to bait it out. In melee I know 90% of all the character's moves, there will always be a few low tiers I don't know and the top IC and Jigg metagame that only 5 people will ever know. In brawl I understand 5% of all the character's moves.

I think what people are missing and what Forward is eluding to isn't specific techniques that we don't know but instead strategies that different characters will employ.

 

[Bud]

^ tis my new sig

 

[Rhubarbo]

Okay, I see a lot of people relying that Brawl will develop AT in the future. Well, clearly, by stating this, you are obviously not entirely content with Brawl in it's current state, no? Well, I have news for you, most ATs discovered will probably be character specific and won't remmedy the major defensive issue that Brawl has.

See, what possible things could be found to reduce camping? Shields in Brawl just pretty much beat most attacks in any situation? What technique can we find to block airdodging? What tech can be found to increase hit stun for combos? What tech is there out there that will remove auto sweet spotting? Techs will add depth, but the primary issue will remain, Brawl will be a stripped defensive game....always.

 

[Bud]

again, you dont know that for sure, were saying its completely possible that camping will turn out not the best option. There are ways to beat it, but we will see one day who is right. You cant declare the future but you can stay positive in your assumption that camping wont be overcome. but saying always is saying you know for sure which you don't. I should save all these comments in a word document and make a thread in a year or so to show how quick people were too judge brawl and we will all laugh. Or they can make one on us if were wrong. Or NOBODY IS WRONG, ITS ALL OPINION/PREFERENCE.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I don't think you read the OP.

The argument isn't that we need to discover something to create hit-stun, its that it doesn't have to be a bad thing that hit-stun is gone, its simply different. Did you miss this question:

which is more interesting, satisfying, and difficult, landing a string of attacks where the opponent has no opportunity to respond or landing a string of attacks where the opponent was responding every step of the way?

what possible things could be found to reduce camping?

Its not about techniques, its about strategy.

 

[ArgentStew]

I'm not relying on ATs... I'm relying on the evolution of the game as a whole... As AZ said, it's how people react to the dominant strategies and find ways to counter them... And that's only a part of it...

 

[Big Burn]

interesting post indeed

 

[NES n00b]

I don't think you read the OP.

The argument isn't that we need to discover something to create hit-stun, its that it doesn't have to be a bad thing that hit-stun is gone, its simply different. Did you miss this question:





Its not about techniques, its about strategy.

So you get to literally approach people who are in the air after landing a "combo starter?" Cool I guess, but that is nowhere near the depth of the SSBM punishing system. <_<

 

[AlphaZealot]

Which is depth, in your opinion, landing a hit you know the opponent can't stop, or tricking the opponent so you can land your next hit?

It seems by depth, you actually just mean physical skill, depth usually refers to a mental attribute.