The Best Players.....again

[hungrybox]

yeah, trolled

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Stating that it's a '*insert cardinal direction here* tourney' kinda sorta implies that its a local. Or at the very most, a regional.

Genesis was definitely a(n) (inter)national that was located on the west coast.

 

[tarheeljks]

why can't it just indicate the location of the tournament

 

[Pontus]

cmon guys, PP wont win over Armada, do u really believe that?

PP is really really good but i just think he cant tap that peach

 

[Dark Hart]

cmon guys, PP wont win over Armada, do u really believe that?

PP is really really good but i just think he cant tap that peach

I honestly think PP needs to worry about Amsah more than ARmada

EDIT: but I don't think he doesn't have to worry about either of them...

 

[Kanelol]

PP vs Armada at APEX was actually a puhrtty right battle

idk about amsah

calle w should come and mm pp :D:D:D:D

 

[Pontus]

and also, why do i see people placing shiz above zhu? cmon, Zhu is better I think he has proved that

 

[strawhats]

and also, why do i see people placing shiz above zhu? cmon, Zhu is better I think he has proved that

IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HEAD TO HEAD...then shiz beat zhu, but if we're talking about tournament placings then i can see where your argument is coming from.

 

[Pontus]

im talking about the overall. shiz might be better in dittos but its just one matchup, i think zhu got it overall. Zhu feels like a very clutch player to me

 

[strawhats]

im talking about the overall. shiz might be better in dittos but its just one matchup, i think zhu got it overall. Zhu feels like a very clutch player to me

I actually feel as if shiz is the more talented player but doesn't play except like one national per year therefore his skill may begin to deteriorate as a result of being gone from melee for so long. Also Zhu plays more than shiz and gets to play guys like mango and lucky more frequently. Location is a major factor in skill sometimes. Your environment and the people around help to forge the difference between winning at locals vs. being a threat in nationals.

But it really doesn't matter cuz at the end of the day Dr. PP is the best falco MAIN right now...especially while mango (i mean mango, ScorpEhDorp/scorpion master) is on his little yr and a half vacation from RAPAGE.

lol mango was on the stream (B.EA.S.T), a European tourney, and said he doesn't try because people used to ***** when he would always win, plus he got bored, and also whenever he did something amazing people or be was a topic of interest for things like best falcon/fox/falco; people would be like "yeah its mango he doesn't count". He siad he got tired of that and now the only time he tries is when he plays friendlies. Also he says he doesn't wanna give hbox the satisfaction of beating him if he tries which he said wouldn't happen anyway. Also He says"**** HBOX AND I HATE YOU GUYS"


lol...thats mango for ya

 

[hungrybox]

gotta love mango

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mmmm

lookin forward to playin that guy soon

 

[strawhats]

looking forward to playing you soon too :3

 

[(*Jman*)]

your from the bronx and i have never seen you in my life but you know so much about every top player LOL

anyways who won that beast tourney or w.e

 

[Grim Tuesday]

 

[KAOSTAR]

It's fine that you don't think we should make a distinction. I'm wondering whether you're willing to give a reason for your belief -- that's what I tried to do.

Discussion is more than saying that someone else doesn't accept the truth. Are you the arbiter of truth? I am not denying anyone's talent. Your response makes me wonder whether you put any thought into what I was saying, or whether you just like to feel big by making such posts.

I'll lay it out mechanistically.
____________

(1) Someone ought to be deemed "the best" only when s/he performs well when "it matters".

(2) It matters in tournaments, and perhaps (big) money matches.

(3) Mango has not performed very well in the last few singles tournaments. He has done very well in doubles. However, I do not think doubles is the major criterion most people have in mind when they ask themselves who the best is.

Those are my assumptions, and I think you have a problem with (1) and (2).

Now, I believe "talent" can be deemed in other scenarios as well-- late night smashfests/friendlies after tournament/matches when you're not drunk. For this reason I can say Mango is the most talented player at this time.

I'm not denying that talent/"bestness" are unrelated. I'm saying that we should make our terms explicit. And by these terms, Mango is the most talented but I wouldn't say it's fair to call him the best.

I dont understand how when the players who by your definition are "the best" say "no, Im not the best mango is" you wouldnt just accept that as most likely to be true.

I could find myself agreeing with you on a distinction of best including consistency and placement vs talent which is at 100% pure super saiyin skill, but often times it doesnt seem like mango is really putting much effort into tournament. So while I could agree that effort is often required to be the best, I dont think his lack of effort proves that he is not the best.

When you take any of the candidates that meet your criteria to be considered the best, Im pretty sure all of them would say that there is somebody greater.

I think Mango is still the best because while his placing is inconsistent, its consistent with his level of effort. Other players go hard, but place differently depending on how the other player plays. Its fair to say showing up drunk or using characters that are not your strongest is an indication of lesser efforts. When Mango tries he wins, he is the only player to be able to do that recently. And he still beats the best of the best.

If mango went hard I think that he would still win any global tournament at this date and time, just my opinion.


Best fox main, Jman, best falco main, PP. undisputed world champion of smash lol....

 

[Van.]

PP vs. Amsah would be great. Amsah is somehow so good at that match up, and PP is just so good in general.

 

[Alukard]

the gay is what makes sheik good

definitely the truth right here ... its all she has going for her

Mmmm

lookin forward to playin that guy soon

i'm lookin to playing u again ... >=]

 

[strawhats]

your from the bronx and i have never seen you in my life but you know so much about every top player LOL

anyways who won that beast tourney or w.e

lol...I sat right next to you ar RoM 3 as you were trying to cheer m2k on against Dr. PP

I was sitting behind m2k and was wearing a a mets hat.

Also I go to school in CT now (College)

funny thing is i got to play lucky but never got to play you...maybe at Pound V

 

[Dr Peepee]

Aight Alu let's battle

 

[Diakonos]

I dont understand how when the players who by your definition are "the best" say "no, Im not the best mango is" you wouldnt just accept that as most likely to be true.

I could find myself agreeing with you on a distinction of best including consistency and placement vs talent which is at 100% pure super saiyin skill, but often times it doesnt seem like mango is really putting much effort into tournament. So while I could agree that effort is often required to be the best, I dont think his lack of effort proves that he is not the best.

When you take any of the candidates that meet your criteria to be considered the best, Im pretty sure all of them would say that there is somebody greater.

I think Mango is still the best because while his placing is inconsistent, its consistent with his level of effort. Other players go hard, but place differently depending on how the other player plays. Its fair to say showing up drunk or using characters that are not your strongest is an indication of lesser efforts. When Mango tries he wins, he is the only player to be able to do that recently. And he still beats the best of the best.

If mango went hard I think that he would still win any global tournament at this date and time, just my opinion.


Best fox main, Jman, best falco main, PP. undisputed world champion of smash lol....

You're right. I'm saying that in this peculiar scenario, making a distinction of terms seems useful and almost fair.

I say it makes it "fair" (loaded word) because Mango, currently deemed the most talented, does not allow for someone to supersede him if he does not "try" against them. If the challenger loses, well, MANGO IS SOOO GUD DUH, but if the challenger wins, well, MANGO IS SOOO GUD (but he wasn't trying and that's why he lost). Thus, if someone were as good as mango (or better, or just about, or getting there), our current system of thought does not allow for us to see them as "the best", because Mango is guaranteed that position because of a few friendlies he plays now and then. The distinction is useful, and it gives credit to those players who are being denied the chance to establish themselves against him.

I agree that many of the best (using my definition) feel that mango is the best. They are just not using my terminology. They probably mean "most talented" according to my terminology.

Hopefully that clarifies things.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Armada won that tourney.
2. Amsah
3. Ice

 

[Diakonos]

I'm excited for German smash.

 

[Beat!]

Ice played really well against Amsah. He really had some momentum going there for a while.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I actually feel as if shiz is the more talented player but doesn't play except like one national per year therefore his skill may begin to deteriorate as a result of being gone from melee for so long.

I couldnt agree with you more

 

[KAOSTAR]

You're right. I'm saying that in this peculiar scenario, making a distinction of terms seems useful and almost fair.

I say it makes it "fair" (loaded word) because Mango, currently deemed the most talented, does not allow for someone to supersede him if he does not "try" against them. If the challenger loses, well, MANGO IS SOOO GUD DUH, but if the challenger wins, well, MANGO IS SOOO GUD (but he wasn't trying and that's why he lost). Thus, if someone were as good as mango (or better, or just about, or getting there), our current system of thought does not allow for us to see them as "the best", because Mango is guaranteed that position because of a few friendlies he plays now and then. The distinction is useful, and it gives credit to those players who are being denied the chance to establish themselves against him.

I agree that many of the best (using my definition) feel that mango is the best. They are just not using my terminology. They probably mean "most talented" according to my terminology.

Hopefully that clarifies things.

I dont see mango as unsurpassable because of his lack of efforts. The people who are saying Mango is too good and can never(LOADED) be beaten or is always the best are merely fanboys. Their opinions dont even count in that sense, thats simply a political battle and Mango wins because of popularity. Same thing happens with Silent Spectre. I watched his set vs Mooninite and all the comments are like ahh Jeff wasnt trying until game 3. blah blah blah, couldnt it just be a goodset? I dont know if Jeff was trying, fanboys dont Actually know, because only Jeff would know for sure.

As long as the top players are convinced that Mango is the best player then I see no real reason for the distinction. The situation would be more suited for distinction if there was at least another candidate for top smasher. I mean Jman is ****ing tight, PP is ****ing tight, I highly doubt either one of them would say they are better than Mango. Hbox, cant be the best, AR isnt the best. There is nobody who you could definitively or really even speculatively say is the best based on the time span of pound 3 through pound 5 because nobody has been completely dominant, yet somehow amongst the best players they still say Mango is the best-based off playing him and other top players in tournament, not just who looks cool on youtube like the fanboys.

Mango is the best until there is reasonable doubt, I think the real question is by how much. There will probably come a time where people(people with valid opinions, other competitors not fans) are like X player might give him the business.

 

[Mew2King]

i would like to see amsah v drpp he is real good vs falco with sheik

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sometimes I am anyway. I want to play Amsah really badly though. Last top player I have yet to play a lot/in tourney.

Oh and <3 M2K. =)

Back to studying.

....

Also people will just catch up to Mango as he continues to lose his fire and stops practicing as he has lately seems like(from what he tells me anyway).

I still think he's the best though.

 

[Mew2King]

i do too cuz i've played him for hours. His skill cap is enormous

 

[Niko45]

wtf is a skill cap and where do I get one

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm jealous, M2K.

 

[Merkuri]

I dont see mango as unsurpassable because of his lack of efforts. The people who are saying Mango is too good and can never(LOADED) be beaten or is always the best are merely fanboys. Their opinions dont even count in that sense, thats simply a political battle and Mango wins because of popularity. Same thing happens with Silent Spectre. I watched his set vs Mooninite and all the comments are like ahh Jeff wasnt trying until game 3. blah blah blah, couldnt it just be a goodset? I dont know if Jeff was trying, fanboys dont Actually know, because only Jeff would know for sure.

As long as the top players are convinced that Mango is the best player then I see no real reason for the distinction. The situation would be more suited for distinction if there was at least another candidate for top smasher. I mean Jman is ****ing tight, PP is ****ing tight, I highly doubt either one of them would say they are better than Mango. Hbox, cant be the best, AR isnt the best. There is nobody who you could definitively or really even speculatively say is the best based on the time span of pound 3 through pound 5 because nobody has been completely dominant, yet somehow amongst the best players they still say Mango is the best-based off playing him and other top players in tournament, not just who looks cool on youtube like the fanboys.

Mango is the best until there is reasonable doubt, I think the real question is by how much. There will probably come a time where people(people with valid opinions, other competitors not fans) are like X player might give him the business.

I kinda like what you say is all stupid because people don't determine what is and what is not fact. Mango is either the best or he isn't, that he is either more skilled than every other player or he isn't. All the top players saying mango is the best doesn't make him more skilled, if tomorrow they all said he wasn't the best then they would all be wrong if he is in fact the best. Therefore for you to say something like Mango is the best cuz all the top players say so is just stupid.

I really don't why Hbox or Armada couldn't be the best players. Hbox did take mango to a 5th game at Pound 4, so obviously the skill gap isn't too big. Moreover Hunrybox just beat Mango's fox in tournament. From Pound 4 till now Hunrybox probably wouldn't have had to improve much to be on Mango's level or higher. I don't think you're much different from the fanboys you criticize.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I didn't criticize fan boys, I made a distinction between the opinions of top players WHO CAN TESTIFY TO MANGO'S SKILL LEVEL IN RELATION TO THEIR OWN AND OTHER PLAYERS BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES HAVE PLAYED THESE PEOPLE ON A TOURNAMENT LEVEL AND ARE CLOSER IN SKILL THAN SAID FAN BOYS AND WOULD PRODUCE A MORE VALID ASSERTION OF MANGO'S SKILL LEVEL.

so if all the top professional smash players suddenly change their opinion it doesn't mean mango now has a different power level so to speak because its really ****ing hard to say exactly how good somebody is. its alot easier to take the relative approach however. meaning that top pros would be the best judges of skill on a wide scale.

tournament evidence is hard to refute, but with such a consensus amongst the people who matter, I guess mango is the exception to the rule.

 

[Stev]

I kinda like what you say is all stupid because people don't determine what is and what is not fact. Mango is either the best or he isn't, that he is either more skilled than every other player or he isn't. All the top players saying mango is the best doesn't make him more skilled, if tomorrow they all said he wasn't the best then they would all be wrong if he is in fact the best. Therefore for you to say something like Mango is the best cuz all the top players say so is just stupid.

I really don't why Hbox or Armada couldn't be the best players. Hbox did take mango to a 5th game at Pound 4, so obviously the skill gap isn't too big. Moreover Hunrybox just beat Mango's fox in tournament. From Pound 4 till now Hunrybox probably wouldn't have had to improve much to be on Mango's level or higher. I don't think you're much different from the fanboys you criticize.

I think the reason people still claim Mango is the best is it's because they knew where Mango was at, and they haven't seen people reach that point yet. It's not like Mango has taken a hiatus or something. He's still played on a regular basis and thus hasn't lost much, if anything off his game. I'd say we've seen strides from players such as PP, Armada, and M2K (he looked a lot better at ROM 3 than he has in a while) which is why people can speculate that they are approaching his tier. But when those players who can actually compete with Mango say that Manog's better, I'm pretty sure they're right.

Now that it's been a year since Pound 4 and we've seen improvement from these top level players (I'm gonna throw hbox in there too) I think it's appropriate to question whether Mango is still the best, but I don't think you can flat out dethrone him like so many people are. Until we have a consistent winner of nationals, you can't really crown anyone over Mango

 

[Mew2King]

idk if ill ever be the best anymore, i literally only play this game like once every 2-3 months (I use smashboards a lot though). I went to rom3 with a borrowed controller without having played since like australia (very little in australia). I don't play enough to be a contender for that anymore.

i think mango's the best cuz of personal experience at his house and playing him many times at different tournaments in friendlies. His max skill is higher than that of anyone else I've seen and he's able to keep it up for many matches in a row at many events that I've played him at.

I beat his fox about 50/50 with my fox/marth/sheik each, but his falco I cannot beat majority with any character (altho marth and sometimes sheik is only like 60:40 for his favor of matches sometimes he can just massacre me badly some games randomly). He also uses a wide variety of characters very well. He should stop that marth stuff though he's only using marth cuz I told him marth sucks and he's trying to prove me wrong because that's how he is but I honestly think marth's just overrated (still top tier though but barely). He never uses jiggs in friendlies vs me. Sometimes we can 3 stock each other but he does it to me more than vice versa

everyone knows who the best players are nowadays arguing number 2 outside of mango is mostly who's the best or least rusty at that point in time imo which could be a number of people at any specific time.

i havent improved since pound4 at all honestly (I don't play anymore, I just talk about the game and randomly attend events occasionally), if anything i got worse since i used to have a **** controller and don't have one anymore

 

[MASAHIROx]

watch out for redd!

 

[Afro_Ninja]

The 'sandbagging' comment has always bugged me. I refuse to believe that any pros ever "sandbag" in a tournament. What possible reason is there for it? If they supposedly didn't care about winning the tournament they wouldn't have entered in the first place. They only stand to gain from winning a tournament. It's the simplest logic I can come up with.

The only exception to this I see is intentionally picking a bad character.

But if someone loses it's not because they felt like hiding their true power, it's because they
were not playing good that day
were outplayed by their opponent
had momentum shift in or out of their favor at the wrong times
made a mistake (gasp)
haven't been practicing
etc. etc. etc.

Sandbagging is what you do when you either 1) play someone at a much lower skill level who doesn't even realize you're sand bagging or 2) want to be a complete **** and humiliate them

 

[Dr Peepee]

When Mango won everything, no one cared when he won.

When "who's the best of whatever character" discussions happened, Mango didn't count because he was too good.

When Mango lost, the whole world jumped on his back about it.

When he kept beating people he had nothing left to prove and there wasn't really motivation there for him.

He just got tired of it so he goofs off now until someone makes him want to try again I guess.

You guys can believe it or not I guess. I'm not gonna argue with anyone but I figure I'll show those who will listen this information just in case.

 

[The Star King]

I'd imagine it'd be really frustrating to put a lot of effort into being good with a certain character and try to be recognized, only to have the general public be like, "Lol, you don't count".

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea, PP, I heard the same **** from another source. Its legitimate tho, imagine being at a smash fest for 10 hours where u are substantially better than everyone else there. After awhile it gets boring, u start goofiing off, sandbagging, lookin for the bottle.

now imagine if the whole world was a smashfest....poor Mango :/