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The BBR has decided to bone Ganonciding.

Clai

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Trying to clear up an apparently very popular misconception:
Ganonciding never had any rule covering it in former rulesets.

That it would cover Ganoncides was a (mis?)interpretation of most people because of how ambiguous the rule was worded, I'd think.
Although it took me a while to realize this point as well, we're more worried that TO's who originally had the clause in their rulesets to favor Ganon in the issue of Ganoncides (even if it wasn't in the recommended ruleset 2.0) will now change it in order to be more within the scope of the ruleset.

I appreciate the effort you're doing to change this, but I'm growing less and less interested in this debate and am willing to just accept the circumstances. It's not like Aerudo's an even good method of recovery anyway, although it does save us from eager offstage players. We have enough tools to prevent us getting gimped that doesn't resort to Ganonciding.
 

Judo777

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Hey guys i might be wrong but i was testing some this morning and i am under the impression that if ganon has the lower port number then the suicide always results in a tie and therefore will be played out 1 stock 3 min. Where as if u have the higher port its possible for you to just lose. I might be wrong but i tested some and this appeared to be the case.
 

Red Arremer

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Well, currently it does look like there won't be a change to the rule at all. I tried, but that was all I could do, so I'm sorry.
I hope you guys can accept that like Clai does.
 

Zeallyx

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This all somehow amuses me.

Humans are intelligent beeings, but when in groups, we suck, lol.
 

Ganonsburg

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Well, currently it does look like there won't be a change to the rule at all. I tried, but that was all I could do, so I'm sorry.
I hope you guys can accept that like Clai does.
Thank you for your efforts and understanding. I, like Clai, am growing weary of this whole debate and I feel satisfied with the understanding you and one or two other BBR members have shown toward our points. I would be interested in some of the BBR'ss points against a rule concerning Ganoncide (or making ALL Sudden Deaths = 1 stock rematch), so maybe I'll go ask Pierce in his new thread in Tactical about that come Wednesday or something.

Again, thank you! I wish Verm could have been here earlier when this discussion was going on, but I think he was at Apex. He was fairly into the debate as well.

:034:
 

Deathfox30

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Ok, take it away from us...
Then you can also take away MK's 'Nado and his Shuttle Loop.
Hid Side+b & Down+b should be the only allowed B-moves of his, lol.

If a MK-player uses Up+b or Neutral B, he should get a warning.
If he uses any of 'em again - Disqualification.

.

.

>_>
NO! That would go against everything BBR stands for. MK is clearly a balanced character and has some disadvantages, whereas Ganon is extremely broken. You see, if you have Ganons out there winning every single tournament, it will get boring and nobody will want to play. They had to try to make it more fair be screwing over his recovery. Now, if by some miracle the opponent can get you to one stock, they have a small chance to win. BBR is all about fair play. Now that this rule is being implemented it will encourage more people to use worse characters that now have a chance against Ganon, such as Falco. It's either this or ban Ganon all together. He's just too fast and his moves out prioritize like, everything. Not to mention his extremely lagless moves and great recovery. This isn't even enough IMO. Ganon needs to either be banned all together or U tilt and Warlock Punch needs to be against the rules. I think Ganon MIGHT go even with MK without those moves. Probably 55-45, though. I don't even see how anyone can disagree. Ganon was one of the hardest characters to gimp and gimping him was the only way to win, now this is fixed. Just beware of Up Special. It's massive hit stun could allow Ganon to mid air jump and counter-gimp before you can do anything. Ban it as well. In all seriousness, though. Why ban it? It's not like it's spammable or MU changing. Why limit the recovery options of a character with next to no competitive viability who has below average (IMO) recovery already. It's like banning Olimar's Pikmin Chain because it can stage spike the opponent if they don't edge hog properly. Now your
pretty much dead every time you get knocked off stage or you try to get back the edge by using Side special and Ganoncide, resulting in you losing anyway. >.> Oh well, I don't use Ganon and I'm sure this won't last anyway. Good Luck.
 

Clai

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Hey guys i might be wrong but i was testing some this morning and i am under the impression that if ganon has the lower port number then the suicide always results in a tie and therefore will be played out 1 stock 3 min. Where as if u have the higher port its possible for you to just lose. I might be wrong but i tested some and this appeared to be the case.
I also checked this out and, as a bonus, used the unlimited camera code to see what really happens during a Ganoncide. It is true that if you have a lower port, it is extremely likely that you will cause a sudden death, and if you have a higher port, it's extremely likely that you will lose (I should stress that neither of these are guaranteed, but they are very, very likely).

Using the unlimited camera and a higher port, I came to discover that during a Ganoncide, Ganondorf does indeed die before the opponent does (you can see the opponent on the screen just as Ganon disappears into oblivion). I have no idea why this happens, but I can assure you that no matter what I tried (as holding the jump button after you unpause the game jumps at the first available frame), the opponent cannot do anything to escape after Ganon has died (I seriously would have raged/quit this game if the other event happened). Even still, fairness and fairness, and if Ganon dies before the opponent does, well, ****.

I don't know what came over Sakurai's team when they were programming this, but I am more at ease seeing the evidence with my own eyes.
 

Judo777

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NO! That would go against everything BBR stands for. MK is clearly a balanced character and has some disadvantages, whereas Ganon is extremely broken. You see, if you have Ganons out there winning every single tournament, it will get boring and nobody will want to play. They had to try to make it more fair be screwing over his recovery. Now, if by some miracle the opponent can get you to one stock, they have a small chance to win. BBR is all about fair play. Now that this rule is being implemented it will encourage more people to use worse characters that now have a chance against Ganon, such as Falco. It's either this or ban Ganon all together. He's just too fast and his moves out prioritize like, everything. Not to mention his extremely lagless moves and great recovery. This isn't even enough IMO. Ganon needs to either be banned all together or U tilt and Warlock Punch needs to be against the rules. I think Ganon MIGHT go even with MK without those moves. Probably 55-45, though. I don't even see how anyone can disagree. Ganon was one of the hardest characters to gimp and gimping him was the only way to win, now this is fixed. Just beware of Up Special. It's massive hit stun could allow Ganon to mid air jump and counter-gimp before you can do anything. Ban it as well. In all seriousness, though. Why ban it? It's not like it's spammable or MU changing. Why limit the recovery options of a character with next to no competitive viability who has below average (IMO) recovery already. It's like banning Olimar's Pikmin Chain because it can stage spike the opponent if they don't edge hog properly. Now your
pretty much dead every time you get knocked off stage or you try to get back the edge by using Side special and Ganoncide, resulting in you losing anyway. >.> Oh well, I don't use Ganon and I'm sure this won't last anyway. Good Luck.
Lol at anyone that thinks that olimar doesnt use is pikmin chain to recover even when the ledge isnt available and that oli offstage is auto gimp.
 

DtJ Hilt

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Olimar's pikmin chain stage spike does not automatically result in a victory screen for his opponent. If it did, then maybe.
 

Red Arremer

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It was ultimately turned down now. I guess you'll just have to live with the developers screwing your character up in every regard.
 

Deathfox30

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I know he uses it when the ledge isn't available. >.> It's kind of the same thing, though. Edge gaurding Olimar is high risk, high reward, just like Ganon. With Ganon you have to watch out for Ganoncide. With Olimar, you have to watch out for Pikmin Chain and Purple Pikmin stage spikes. They could both result in both characters dying at the same time. Likely? No. BBR has valid points, but I agree more with Ganon boards.
 

Judo777

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I know he uses it when the ledge isn't available. >.> It's kind of the same thing, though. Edge gaurding Olimar is high risk, high reward, just like Ganon. With Ganon you have to watch out for Ganoncide. With Olimar, you have to watch out for Pikmin Chain and Purple Pikmin stage spikes. They could both result in both characters dying at the same time. Likely? No. BBR has valid points, but I agree more with Ganon boards.
No because u can on reaction time ur get up invincibility so that pikmin chain wont hit u and oli dies in that scenario. THAT scenario is auto gimp. However smart olimars will keep their second jump and just use the slight upward momentum he gets from pikmin chain and just land on the stage. U have to hit olimar mad far for him to not be able to get back doing that since olimars always DI upward. If he cant get back he will save his double jump and uair the ledge or pikmin toss purples at u.
 

Zeallyx

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So, it's now safe to say:

Ganoncide is broken.

Edit: reading this post make me chuckle
 

Zeallyx

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Ganoncide is broken.

Ganoncide is broken.

Ganoncide is broken.

Ganoncide is broken.

Ganoncide is broken.

Ganoncide is broken.

Ganoncide is broken.

Ganoncide is broken.

I think I made my point.
 

Noobicidal

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Oh, I thought we were having friendly banter regarding the usage of bone-related puns.
 

Deathfox30

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I did say if you don't edgehog properly. Since when is DIing up when hit horizontally unique to Olimar? Will Olimar always have his Mid Air jump, though? He'll face a situation where he either gets knocked back too far or gets hit while recovering and he'll have to rely on Pikmin Toss and Pikmin Chain. Obviously a well timed edge hog will totally screw you over. Inb4whistleSA
 

PK-ow!

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How can character A's attack make character B win?

It's silly.
Link's Bomb.

Snake's Grenade.

I know you probly thought of that a couple minutes after posting, but left it up like a man.
Well good for you. Almost as manly as Ganon.

My point is that, looking at all of the other suicide moves, Ganoncide's programming is obviously faulty. And even if you disagree (despite the evidence), the SBR is a committee of the "top minds" in the Brawl community. Why would they blindly follow programming that is likely faulty, instead of getting together like the committee they are and decide whether it is faulty or not?

Ganonciding/other suicide moves may not be AS game-breaking as infinite dimensional cape, but it is still game-breaking for a few specific characters, especially considering the fact they had to make a rule about it in the official ruleset. And I'm pretty appalled that they made the rule without ANY exploration or rational, logical comparison of the suicide moves.

Instead, they just opted for "we don't know the developer's intent, so we're going to ignore all of the evidence and follow obviously faulty programming."
Because glitches are never banned for being glitches.

Glitches are the source of some of the greatest exploits a fighter game offers to its meta game.


No one cares what the intent is. Ever. If the game functions, we can play it. If developers produce a forced patch (say, Soul Calibur IV's 1.03), well, you bite it. If not, you take the game and you push it to its limits. You do that by not giving in to whining, or persuasion of any kind, on ANY point, no matter what, until the choice being faced is at the stakes of "this game is not playable" or "this game ceases to be competition."

You do this for two reasons. One, to defend the height of the meta, always pushing for the highest exploits. Well ah, you think, a rule about Ganonciding has little to do with this. You'd be right, I'll give that to you. But there's another reason. That reason is, Two, about keeping us all playing the same game. A divided community is just many separate games. They are as Tekken and TvC, as far as that pushing of the meta is concerned. Those arguments, however well we draw up the framework for evaluating the persuasions, will not be evaluated by the masses with critical detachment and rationality. It will be a free-for-all of choice.

And this will damage all the games. You can only take the height to its limit in so many games at once, being Human. The player pool will actually split, and the effect of the split will be sharper as you check higher echelons of actual ability. At the highest levels, where players must commit to knowing one system (within a similarity sphere of systems, that other games coming from truly separate origins easily escape) to be indeed high level players, they must all either stick to one of these game versions (making the other versions moot, because the competition isn't there)... or face a brittle environment/meta in each one's respective game, being reduced to a fraction of the former playership; a fraction that vanishes as the number of possibilities of these multiple versions explodes. Overcentralized tops occur, now, simply because there aren't as many top players as there are options.


All created because we didn't draw an absolute, immovable line about what 'changes' to the system we even wanted to hear discussion about.


It is a system that, yes, has the possibility of disallowing good things. But that is the cost taken for the benefit of never allowing the bad, dare I say poisonous things.
It is the argument here, basically, that this choice of method, is the rational one for the purpose of constructing a FTG rule set.
 

Sovereign

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I didn't read through this whole topic yet, but I just wanted to post this:

So... if the opponent predicts that we are going to recover using our Gerudo, and they decide "Hey, I've got one stock left, and so does he. I'm gonna just purposely run into it so he'll automatically take the 'L' or at the very least it'll be a draw, and we have to 1 stock it out, in which case I'll naturally win." what then? You've just made a character virtually unplayable, by removing something that actually gave a high risk move, reward. This goes for Bowser, and the other kamikaze characters. I don't mind as hard as some, since I'm going to just pick another character to play with, until this is fixed, but I find it very unfair that an already terrible character now has a three high risk moves, and one has no reward.
 

Clai

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I didn't read through this whole topic yet, but I just wanted to post this:

So... if the opponent predicts that we are going to recover using our Gerudo, and they decide "Hey, I've got one stock left, and so does he. I'm gonna just purposely run into it so he'll automatically take the 'L' or at the very least it'll be a draw, and we have to 1 stock it out, in which case I'll naturally win." what then? You've just made a character virtually unplayable, by removing something that actually gave a high risk move, reward. This goes for Bowser, and the other kamikaze characters. I don't mind as hard as some, since I'm going to just pick another character to play with, until this is fixed, but I find it very unfair that an already terrible character now has a three high risk moves, and one has no reward.
As I've said before, any attempts to recover to the stage using Aerudo can be edgehogged on reaction (as in prediction is not even needed), so this isn't nearly as gamebreaking as you're putting it out to be. Yes, this rule change sucks horribly, but I wouldn't take it as far as "making the character virtually unplayable." As for the high-risk moves, Ganon sucks, you're either going to whine about it or keep playing.
 

Z1GMA

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NO! That would go against everything BBR stands for. MK is clearly a balanced character and has some disadvantages, whereas Ganon is extremely broken. You see, if you have Ganons out there winning every single tournament, it will get boring and nobody will want to play. They had to try to make it more fair be screwing over his recovery. Now, if by some miracle the opponent can get you to one stock, they have a small chance to win. BBR is all about fair play. Now that this rule is being implemented it will encourage more people to use worse characters that now have a chance against Ganon, such as Falco. It's either this or ban Ganon all together. He's just too fast and his moves out prioritize like, everything. Not to mention his extremely lagless moves and great recovery. This isn't even enough IMO. Ganon needs to either be banned all together or U tilt and Warlock Punch needs to be against the rules. I think Ganon MIGHT go even with MK without those moves. Probably 55-45, though. I don't even see how anyone can disagree. Ganon was one of the hardest characters to gimp and gimping him was the only way to win, now this is fixed. Just beware of Up Special. It's massive hit stun could allow Ganon to mid air jump and counter-gimp before you can do anything. Ban it as well. In all seriousness, though. Why ban it? It's not like it's spammable or MU changing. Why limit the recovery options of a character with next to no competitive viability who has below average (IMO) recovery already. It's like banning Olimar's Pikmin Chain because it can stage spike the opponent if they don't edge hog properly. Now your
pretty much dead every time you get knocked off stage or you try to get back the edge by using Side special and Ganoncide, resulting in you losing anyway. >.> Oh well, I don't use Ganon and I'm sure this won't last anyway. Good Luck.
You are.... *sigh*
I wasn't even the slightest bit serious.

I even typed:
.

.

>_>
 

PK-ow!

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There is actually no rules change.

There was just inconsistency because Bowser got a rule and Ganon didn't. Ganon was taken for working differently than he actually does, though. In fact, just now I was seeing something about AA doing tests to prove... stuff we knew half a year ago.

*sigh*

Guys, if you are at a tie, Ganoncide won't give you the game. So it'll be a loss. That's it.

It lets you trade down from a stock lead, it lets you steal a stock before the last one, in exchange for one 'past its prime' (either unrecoverable, or high percent), or it lets you do any of these things before your last stock because you're ******, the opponent is gettin' cocky, and you want to.

That is the move's property. One suicide move in this game can be the last one in a game for a win. One of them is still a suicide move, but can't be the last one. Tradeoffs. Ganon doesn't have Koopa Klaw. He has a way of ensuring death in a way only Koopa and he can (Kirbs and D3 cannot), but Koopa's has one use that Ganon's doesn't. By design. Making it, in that one way at least, slightly better.
That is the fact.

If you want Koopa Klaw, play Koopa.
 

Supreme Dirt

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From what I can tell, we are somewhat effected by port priority. Make **** sure you have port 1.
 

Divilenta

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I don't see how this ruling makes the game any more "fair." Ganondorf loses 9/10 times after a ganoncide, you're just giving the opponent an opportunity to jump in the way and win the match for free. That's...dumb. I'd rather it just result in a new match. One stock, 3 minutes. Ganon won't win easily anyway but it's more desirable than this.
 

IYM!

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after reading this threat, i have to say

the ganoncide isnt broken, after all, Ganon isnt a very easy character to dominate like fox or wario, and left him with out his ganoncide, is just unfair,

for bowser, is OK, he is in a higher position in the tier list,

is ridiculous how the BBR baned this techniques and no the infinites and CG, ( until 300%???, is ridiculous)

i dont want ofend to BBR, but i think they are wrong
 

Dumbfire

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I lold. You should tell that to the BBR, Im sure they will fall for that.
 

Supreme Dirt

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after reading this threat, i have to say

the ganoncide isnt broken, after all, Ganon isnt a very easy character to dominate like fox or wario, and left him with out his ganoncide, is just unfair,

for bowser, is OK, he is in a higher position in the tier list,

is ridiculous how the BBR baned this techniques and no the infinites and CG, ( until 300%???, is ridiculous)

i dont want ofend to BBR, but i think they are wrong
Gentlemen, we have our spokesman.
I lold. You should tell that to the BBR, Im sure they will fall for that.
Really? jajaja well, i dont know how to do it
 

Kewkky

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If it's any consolation, I voted for the suicide rule to remain in effect, and give the initiator the win. :|

*points at his main character, who also lost an advantage: swallowcide*

I mean, I know the rule was quite logical. Start a kamikaze maneuver, and if your opponent is dumb enough to fall for it, then you take his last stock, thus completing the "take off your opponent's last stock to win the match" win condition, which should earn you the win... Ganondorf got it pretty bad, since his safest recovery option now is not only a bad option, but recovering that way could cost him the game if the opponent decides he wants to exploit a programming flaw.

And when the game ends at sudden death, you have to play a 3-minute 1-stock match to decide who won, over and over again until you have a victor.


*wishes he could join in the recent posts, but he's a moderator so he's not allowed to :(*
 

IYM!

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the ganoncide move would not be banned, but will be fine baned all others suiccides moves for thats reason:

KDDD: he have a lot of good thinks, heavy weight character, long range, very good recovery, nice kill power, CG, 5 jumps and a unic kind of projectiles, i mean he dont throw items, he throw characters.

Kirby: very good recovery, 5 jumps, a dangerous Dair, a very good kill power, fast moves, the hammer, he is the unic character than can copy an skill and he is a small character.

Wario: very good recovery, a heavy character, good kill power, a super armor Fsmash, an awesome mobility in the air, CG, and his bike,

DK: he is very strong, heavy weight character, good recovery, fast, his up B is super armor and have a good priority, make it very difficult to gimp, his most powerfull move is super armor.

and the worst thing about all this characters is the fact thn they can throw away before than you die, in that form, they will can back at the stage.

and ganon, what adventajes he has??? ... his dair????, agains all the adventajes of his opponents

that is ridiculous, BBR dont must ban ganoncide
 

Zeallyx

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the ganoncide move would not be banned, but will be fine baned all others suiccides moves for thats reason:

KDDD: he have a lot of good thinks, heavy weight character, long range, very good recovery, nice kill power, CG, 5 jumps and a unic kind of projectiles, i mean he dont throw items, he throw characters.

Kirby: very good recovery, 5 jumps, a dangerous Dair, a very good kill power, fast moves, the hammer, he is the unic character than can copy an skill and he is a small character.

Wario: very good recovery, a heavy character, good kill power, a super armor Fsmash, an awesome mobility in the air, CG, and his bike,

DK: he is very strong, heavy weight character, good recovery, fast, his up B is super armor and have a good priority, make it very difficult to gimp, his most powerfull move is super armor.

and the worst thing about all this characters is the fact thn they can throw away before than you die, in that form, they will can back at the stage.

and ganon, what adventajes he has??? ... his dair????, agains all the adventajes of his opponents

that is ridiculous, BBR dont must ban ganoncide
Your avatar is cool, though.
 

Dumbfire

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Can you please go into some more detail?
Im sure some people would love to hear it cause of.. Reasons.
 
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