Fletch
Smash Master
How is there bias when they are simply posting results? Seems like the most unbiased way to do it to me...
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The 2006-2008 Tier list
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BigRick
Smash Master
1 - Not all tourneys are taken account of.
2 - Usage of secondaries aren't takken account of in some cases (ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS NOT MARTH!)
3 - Wrong main is displayed in some cases.
2 - Usage of secondaries aren't takken account of in some cases (ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS NOT MARTH!)
3 - Wrong main is displayed in some cases.
TheDSGamer
Smash Cadet
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Yeah, if you really know how to use his speed. Like when he grabs, I could do it multiple times.
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
Marth vs fox is not even. Its slightly in marths favor. In 3 of the neutral stages its in marths favor but even in the others. The three being battlefield, yoshis story, and fd. Take it from a fox main who has played marths at all levels. I could go into more detail but just take my word for it.
Fletch
Smash Master
Ya, and this is why I really hate this matchup. Most foxes hate playing DL64 too because of the height; I'd say it's pretty near even here, only giving Fox the advantage on one neutral stage (PS).
HeadISBAgent
Smash Apprentice
I just tried to post all the biggest tournies off the top of my head. If there are additional tournies you'd like me to add then feel free to request them. As for secondaries, I tried to take into account that person's main plus the characters they play in the semi-finals/finals (cause in earlier rounds a lot of pros will mess around with other characters when matched up with easy opponents). Those were a lot of tournies to do off the top of my head so if one of the mains are incorrect (for that tournament) then feel free to correct me.
Aesir
Smash Master
Maybe you're not as good as you think you are?
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
I'd like you to go into more detail. I think the character matchup itself is even, but Marth's good stages tip the match in his favor, while Fox's good stages tip the match in his favor. You don't have to only play on neutral stages. I've heard Corneria or Green Greens is hell for Marth when fighting Fox. Kongo Jungle could be bad for Marth too, even with it's large ceiling.
All_Characters
Smash Apprentice
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I've always found that marth vs. falco provides me with a huge advantage (if im marth).
All i do is grab him when im near the edge and back toss. If he doesnt recover perfectly, u get 2 use the spam attack (f-smash) and destroy him.
BTW, I have no skill what-so-ever with marth, but I'm still about 50-50 with my Marth main friend (who is actually very good). Mainly because I just spam the 3 marth godly attacks.
Grab, counter (occasionally), and F-SMASH (c-sticked of course). Thats why when I use marth, my name is spam.
Marth is definately not very difficult to use (to an extent, albeit a very big extent).
The real question is, who's the easiest? Marth, sheik, or peach?
All i do is grab him when im near the edge and back toss. If he doesnt recover perfectly, u get 2 use the spam attack (f-smash) and destroy him.
BTW, I have no skill what-so-ever with marth, but I'm still about 50-50 with my Marth main friend (who is actually very good). Mainly because I just spam the 3 marth godly attacks.
Grab, counter (occasionally), and F-SMASH (c-sticked of course). Thats why when I use marth, my name is spam.
Marth is definately not very difficult to use (to an extent, albeit a very big extent).
The real question is, who's the easiest? Marth, sheik, or peach?
Aesir
Smash Master
Marth is relatively easy to learn you don't need to be really technical with him. However is one of the hardest to play well. he doesn't have automatic combos eventually chain grab to edge guard on fox won't guarantee a stock. Thus marth is a character of experience.
Its not a easy matchup for Marth but its in his favor for sure!
What are Fox's weaknesses???
Short range
Bad recovery
Very light
Can be combed easy
can be chaingrabed
Can Marth take advantage of ALL his weaknesses???? Yep!
Redragon
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^ and Marth's weaknesses.
Is slow in comparison
Predictable recovery
Can be light shield edgehogged
Very floaty
Bad at short range
Small shield (it doesn't cover his head or feet except at 100% full charge)
Can Fox take advantage of ALL his weaknesses? Yep!
Is slow in comparison
Predictable recovery
Can be light shield edgehogged
Very floaty
Bad at short range
Small shield (it doesn't cover his head or feet except at 100% full charge)
Can Fox take advantage of ALL his weaknesses? Yep!
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
Aesir there are only like two fox mains in new england that are better than me and one of them is DJ. So if you dont trust my opinion maybe you should move to MD/VA. I play all up and down the east coast so my experience comes from playing a variety of marths. I myself have never had much trouble with marths in general but I have found there to be a distinct advantage to marth in 3 of the neutral stages.
Here is why:
FD - A good marth can chaingrab fox here 0 to death but usually only gets 30 to 40% off each grab if they dont mess it up. The lack of platforms also hurts if you had wanted to aim for one in close range recovery or for moving around the level. Its almost always good for fox to have platforms against marth as long as he cant hit you from them easily. Which is why dreamland would be the best level to fight marth if it wasnt for the high ceiling. Whats good about this level for fox is that there is alot of room to move around and shine combos are viable. U throw to u air is never interrupted and its easy to follow their DI if need be. Also if your a good enough fox you really shouldnt get grabbed that much anyways but it still is a deciding factor.
Battlefield - If you land on one of the platforms here there is a good chance your gonna get tipped or at least get up tilted into annoyance before you can get away. The fact that marths range cover in front of him at the bottom as well as extends to the platform above him makes it very hard to approach marth. Also foxs recovery gets ***** here. Every fox has been "battlefielded" at least once. You can ride up the side of the level to avoid marths attacks and even trying for a platform (if in range) is almost useless as marth can still hit you from the ground. The level also feels somewhat cramped for fox since the platforms are so big in comparison to the main level. This is my least favorite level to play marth on.
Yoshis story - They should rename this level to marth's story because it is a b**** to play marth on this level. Having a good recovery is lessened by the fact that this level is so small horizontally. The stage being small also hurts because a fox likes his room. Plus marth can hit/tip you from the platforms and all that comes along with that which i talked about in the battlefield part is basically true for this as well. Except that marth ***** these platforms even more than on battlefield. Whats good for fox in this level is the low ceiling and that fact that marths recovery is also hurt by the level but thats about it. I honestly dont even think this should be a neutral stage because of the cloud, shy guys, and the fact that marth ***** on it so much.
All this are very small cons for Marth....
And some are false!
Bad at sort range!?!?!?!? lol best grab game, and grabs on Fox are almost an 0-death combo..
Small sheild??? I have never heard this, or when playing Marth had problems with sheild stabing...
Predictable but very safe recovery with forward-b and f-air!
Anyways, the only thing in Fox's favor is speed(not by much) lasers, and up-smash, and up-air....
Its close, but ANY smart ssbm player with tell you, its in Marths favor!
Redragon
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
Above is supposed to say you "can't" ride up the side of bfield. For some reason it wont let me save my edit.
But anyways. The only fox player I have ever heard say they think its even is PC every other one thinks its in marths favor and usually wont play the matchup unless they need to. The only level it is even on is Pokemon Stadium. Plus there are counterpick stages in fox's favor. But thats about it.
But anyways. The only fox player I have ever heard say they think its even is PC every other one thinks its in marths favor and usually wont play the matchup unless they need to. The only level it is even on is Pokemon Stadium. Plus there are counterpick stages in fox's favor. But thats about it.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Marth isn't slow at all.
Marth isn't very floaty.
His shield isn't small he just sucks at angling/tilting it. So as a result it gives him bad coverage.
Marth isn't too hot at very close range, this is true. He can grab or u-tilt. But the other top 4 have moves that will beat those two moves of Marth's.
The other stuff Sonic Wave said is true.
Edit: Just for the record, Foxes recovery is like, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better then Marth's. >_>
Marth isn't very floaty.
His shield isn't small he just sucks at angling/tilting it. So as a result it gives him bad coverage.
Marth isn't too hot at very close range, this is true. He can grab or u-tilt. But the other top 4 have moves that will beat those two moves of Marth's.
The other stuff Sonic Wave said is true.
Edit: Just for the record, Foxes recovery is like, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better then Marth's. >_>
Marths recovery is predictable, but safe seeing as he is swinging his sword the whole time
Fox's has more options, but overall is crap...
Btw emblem lord: Marth has the advantage in the Marth vs Fox right??? A small advantage!
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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I would say Marth has slight advantage on his good stages.
On Foxes good stages it becomes even IMO.
On Foxes good stages it becomes even IMO.
YoshiKongBarkley3000
Smash Ace
I also think that the tier list has nothing to do with who everyone plays u can be good with whatever character you want 2 be i play yoshi and DK and didn't have to worry about playing Fox, Falco, or Sheik. but i can play as them though.
Aesir
Smash Master
I really don't care how good you are to be honest. >_>
I agree with the other two except this one lol >_>
I mean I can honest see what you mean if its at mid level play but at high level play if either mess up its pretty much a stock gone. small stage good for fox and marth. Platforms good for fox and marth. everyone always complains about tippers and what not, no one ever realizes how utterly ******** fox's upsmash and uair are.
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
I only put that there because you were insinuating that I wasnt.
But of the three stages in marths favor yoshis is the only one I can actually stand to play marth on because fox has his advantages too. But it is definitely a marth friendly level. I cant name even one character that marth doesnt have an advantage on in this level. The thing you arent getting is big levels are better for fox. Im taking in terms of stage size not level size. If you are talking level size being good for fox you are wrong unless you are talking about the ceiling. Smaller levels take away from foxes good recovery. In bigger levels (as is stage) fox doesnt have to approach marth and can sit back and shoot lasers which negates alot of marths strengths over fox. But on levels like YS marth is almost always in range of you and this is alot harder to accomplish.
The only levels that are in fox's favor against marth are onett, corneria, and green greens. And if you didnt notice they are all counterpick levels.
Aesir
Smash Master
Uhm where did you come to the conclusion that I didn't get that? I never said I didn't I didn't even comment on bigger levels.
so far its 2 levels barely that marth has the advantage on fox.
and you say PC is the only fox main who thinks it's even, I wonder who has more credibility then? PC or *random good fox here*? >_>
so far its 2 levels barely that marth has the advantage on fox.
and you say PC is the only fox main who thinks it's even, I wonder who has more credibility then? PC or *random good fox here*? >_>
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
No but you said small stage is good for fox. And I think its quite the opposite. Its only good for fox if that stage has a small ceiling. He wants everything else to be as big as possible to maximize his movement and recovery.
Umm how about KDJ, Me, CWJAlex and every other good fox in NE that I talk to. Why do you
think DJ goes all shiek some tourneys now. Its because fox vs marth is a tough matchup. I dont think you can find a credible fox besides PC that thinks its even.
Umm how about KDJ, Me, CWJAlex and every other good fox in NE that I talk to. Why do you
think DJ goes all shiek some tourneys now. Its because fox vs marth is a tough matchup. I dont think you can find a credible fox besides PC that thinks its even.
Mew2King says it's even. Cort says it favors Fox on every stage except FD. And I'm pretty sure DJ goes all Sheik because Sheik is his best character.
We just talked about this the other day and I explained to you the error of your thinking. DJ also says Fox counters Falco. If you're going to use him as an example of an authority on the game, you can't just pick and choose certain things he says that you agree with and ignore everything else. I also remember you saying that you don't think DJ knows that much about the game.
BigRick
Smash Master
ZoSo Falcon Kicked some sense into this thread.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Gotta go with M2K on this one.
Aesir
Smash Master
Pat/Pro: when I said that I didn't mean the stage itself I meant the small in general I dunno how to word this. fox can easily get quick kills on a small stage.
Also as far as I'm concerned if M2k says its even, its even. >_>
Also as far as I'm concerned if M2k says its even, its even. >_>
Pat/Pro
Smash Ace
Wait a second, you yourself said that M2k didnt know what he was talking about when I brought up to you that he thought shiek was that best character in the game. So arent you doing the same thing I did with DJ. M I Rite. Pwned. Plus I heard M2k say at Cat3 that marth countered fox so I dont think he thinks its even but if he would come and correct me I would love to hear it. Cort is a peach player even though he plays fox occasionally so I dont necessarily think his opinion overrides mine. DJs best character is fox.
I can disagree with DJ about falco and still use him as a point of reference for this conversation seeing as how he is the best player in the country and all. PC chris according to you also said that falco counters marth which is defintely not true. If all the best fox players I know agree with me that marth counters fox then i would tend to lean that way. Your a captain falcon player. Please tell me what you know about tournament play with fox and marth.
Pwned
Uh-oh, calling out ZoSo
Not a wise move.. careful or all 4 people from Rhode Island might get angry
i meant population wise.. not just smashers
Not a wise move.. careful or all 4 people from Rhode Island might get angry
i meant population wise.. not just smashers
Aesir
Smash Master
And you can say this with your extensive knowledge in the game right?
sheik clearly is runner for best in the game, simply because when she's played right shes deadly. <_<
sheik clearly is runner for best in the game, simply because when she's played right shes deadly. <_<
Eci4
Smash Ace
according to gamefaqs, bowser and roy are tied for top...
But for real, who of us has the authority to debate this? I know I don't, I've only been to a handful of tournies.. Aesir and Bigrick I'm pretty sure are quite active, but didn't the Backroom make the tierlist?
And aren't the top players all part of the backroom?
It doesn't matter. Sheik is close to being number one, if not number one. I'm sure many people would agree.
No sheik is NOT number one.
Tourney results prove it and majority prove it
At least Fox and Marth are above!
MAYBE falco...
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
Marth beats Fox. Brutally.Marth beats everyone but Sheik, and Sheik barely wins.
Fox beats everyone (besides Marth) and goes even with Sheik. Sheik is easy to exploit out of her double jump and Fox is easy to exploit off of the stage. They can both gay each other pretty bad.
Falco does not have a guaranteed win on anybody in his 'tier' grouping.
Also, I'd like to note that just because tournament play renders results that favor a certain character, that doesn't mean characters who don't win aren't better than those that do. Keep in mind that people are still finding out new ways to do things, get gay gimp kills, and extend livelihood in terms of recovery. Also, you have to factor in characters going to tournaments in decent numbers, giving them more of a chance to place.
As an example of the above two points combined, let's examine the fact that New Destiny (lightshield edgehogging Marth) wasn't widely incorporated into tournament play until early 2006. This move marked an immediate and sharp decline in Marths showing at tournaments. A move that further dropped Marth a notch in attendance was the new tier list (this list) coming out. With Fox and Falco listed as top tier, everyone wanted to make a move to Marth to begin chaingrabbing, but almost instantaneously--like a pre-emptive strike--many players started carrying Sheik in their back pockets, claiming Sheik counters Marth, and eventually making many Marth mains too scared to play their own character in tournment. Due to all this, no Marths really win anymore except for a few, and as such, people aren't going to say that Marth is A] the best character in the game (whether he is or not) or B] that he's better than Fox or Falco / has better matchups than Fox and Falco (even though he is and even though he does).
So yeah, didn't mean to rant. I just hope people keep an open mind and clear thoughts when debating this kind of stuff.
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