The 2006-2008 Tier list

[gkrackerr]

Ehh, i have read some of the comments, and I agree with some of the things that you have said Shiri, especially the Marth thing. I haven't been to many tournaments, yet the ones i have been to, Marth was a rare character to find.

But as for Falco being top tier, there might be room for change. I personally play falco, and although I don't place like well known players, I believe I could add some input. Falco, while a powerful character indeed, can be gimped in so many ways, and quite easily, by many characters, and especially those that are top and high tier. Yes, his approach and retreat is fantastic, yet one mistake, among high level play, can almost always mean death, or some high damage combos. So yeah, I could see him being put down a couple place into high tier.

Just my two cents on Falco.

 

[Pat/Pro]

Uh-oh, calling out ZoSo

Not a wise move.. careful or all 4 people from Rhode Island might get angry

i meant population wise.. not just smashers

Zoso did it first haha. Its all in good fun.

 

[7ak]

Sheik is da best char in da game fo sho. Oh wait.......Fox can waveshine????? Oh snap.....Fox is da best. Oh wait........Marth can CG Fox to death or platform tilt him to KO???? Oh snap.....Marth is da best. Oh wait........Sheik can d-throw, f-tilt, f-air Marth to needle/f-air edgeguard? Oh snap.......Sheik is da best.......wait a second........ICs can CG Sheik from 0-KO? Oh wait, Marth can throw+split/f-smash, f-air camp, d-tilt space ICs?

Seriously though, Fox is the best.

 

[trademark0013]

Sheik is da best char in da game fo sho. Oh wait.......Fox can waveshine????? Oh snap.....Fox is da best. Oh wait........Marth can CG Fox to death or platform tilt him to KO???? Oh snap.....Marth is da best. Oh wait........Sheik can d-throw, f-tilt, f-air Marth to needle/f-air edgeguard? Oh snap.......Sheik is da best.......wait a second........ICs can CG Sheik from 0-KO? Oh wait, Marth can throw+split/f-smash, f-air camp, d-tilt space ICs?

Seriously though, Fox is the best.

best post ever. clearly sums up the arguement for top tier ^_^

seriously, the fact that fox can end the game at 0% makes him top tier. altho marth can cg him, fox can upthrow > upair him .... and shinespike him at 0%...
sheik played right is beastly yes, but not more beat that a proper marth/fox.


falcos good cuz he;s annoying with lasers and has insane 0-high% combos, but a good player can avoid these.... plus marth can CG him AKA ken vs bs

 

[REDRAGON]

best post ever. clearly sums up the arguement for top tier ^_^

seriously, the fact that fox can end the game at 0% makes him top tier. altho marth can cg him, fox can upthrow > upair him .... and shinespike him at 0%...
sheik played right is beastly yes, but not more beat that a proper marth/fox.


falcos good cuz he;s annoying with lasers and has insane 0-high% combos, but a good player can avoid these.... plus marth can CG him AKA ken vs bs

just cause Fox CAN shine spike at 0% does not mean hge always will!

How many tournament games have you been shine spiked??? For me maybe once or twice...
If you play a good Fox then you predict when the shine comes, and you punish....
Fox is not #1.....sorry!


Redragon

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fox and Marth are both good candidates for number 1.

 

[REDRAGON]

Fox and Marth are both good candidates for number 1.

Even Sheik COULD be number one, maybe,
But i always have thought that Marth is #1!

 

[Naraku]

Samus should be in the top Tier.

 

[Aesir]

^ Lol more like no.

 

[KevinM]

No i think he's on to something..

 

[Naraku]

Its true..............

 

[Adi]

If Marth didn't exist, maybe, just maybe..

....

Nope she still has a disadvantage against the other top tier characters, tough luck ^^

 

[slikvik]

Marth and fox are both too good. why cant we have 2 #1s

 

[REDRAGON]

Samus gets owned by Marth and Falcon and Falco and Fox are pretty hard, even Peach and jiggs are hard.
Samus has no horrid matchups but all the characters above her are hard to fight and she has no really easy matchups....

I am surprised people agree with me that Marth might be #1....
A few months back everyone called me a noob for saying that



Redragon

 

[Melaf]

Fox and Marth are both good candidates for number 1.

erm replace marth by sheik since sheik own marth......

 

[slikvik]

erm replace marth by sheik since sheik own marth......

no

ten characters

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol. Shiek doesn't own Marth by any means.

 

[Aesir]

Marth beats Fox. Brutally.

How not chain grabbing its only 0 to death on like maybe 2 stages? so how?

Marth beats everyone but Sheik, and Sheik barely wins.

you're forgetting about his number of bad match ups brought by the low tiers.

Fox beats everyone (besides Marth) and goes even with Sheik. Sheik is easy to exploit out of her double jump and Fox is easy to exploit off of the stage. They can both gay each other pretty bad.

Shiek vs fox is even at best but fox and marth are definatly even. why? its obvious, fox has the best pressure game he can out pressure marth not only that he can arguable out camp marth. lets not forget how easy marth can get gayed out by fox and vise versa. It boils down to who messes up first and who can exploit it fast enough to get the stock.

Falco does not have a guaranteed win on anybody in his 'tier' grouping.

troof

 

[REDRAGON]

How not chain grabbing its only 0 to death on like maybe 2 stages? so how?

you're forgetting about his number of bad match ups brought by the low tiers.

Shiek vs fox is even at best but fox and marth are definatly even. why? its obvious, fox has the best pressure game he can out pressure marth not only that he can arguable out camp marth. lets not forget how easy marth can get gayed out by fox and vise versa. It boils down to who messes up first and who can exploit it fast enough to get the stock.


troof

lol you idiot!
We have all decided that Marth vs Fox is in Marth favor! Its a close game but Marth wins...

 

[Aesir]

by everyone yo umean you pat/pro and shiri? right? lol thats not everyone

 

[trademark0013]

Even Sheik COULD be number one, maybe,
But i always have thought that Marth is #1!

i agree that marth is #1

just cause Fox CAN shine spike at 0% does not mean hge always will!

tru, but the fact that its possible shouldnt be counted out

Marth and fox are both too good. why cant we have 2 #1s

um... no...

 

[slikvik]

i agree that marth is #1

tru, but the fact that its possible shouldnt be counted out

um... no...

lol ok, well can we agree that they both belong in top tier

 

[trademark0013]

lol ok, well can we agree that they both belong in top tier

um.. no..

lol. jk. of course.

from the way this thread is going, the list is gonna change to:

TOP TIER:

Marth
Fox
Sheik

HIGH TIER:

Falco
Peach
Falcon


then who cares nemore... but still... seems possible

also the way donkey kong's being played now, hes gonna move up. not sure if that was discussed b4..

 

[BigRick]

lol you idiot!
We have all decided that Marth vs Fox is in Marth favor! Its a close game but Marth wins...

redragon you god **** parrot just stfu

stop acting like a friggin douche son

and go check out your thread I think sum ppl answered your questions lol:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109476

and u be calling other ppl idiots learn to show sum respect at least

 

[KevinM]

No seriously guys..

Samus should be top tier...

He argued it well

 

[Aesir]

Reddragon just a bit curious what experience you use to draw to your conclusions? you often make some pretty outrageous claims

 

[KevinM]

He is pretty pro from what i can tell <_<

 

[Eggm]

Two of the top 8 at FC including 1st place was yet again marth lol.

 

[trademark0013]

what were the rest?

 

[Lord Knight]

Aesir there are only like two fox mains in new england that are better than me and one of them is DJ. So if you dont trust my opinion maybe you should move to MD/VA. I play all up and down the east coast so my experience comes from playing a variety of marths. I myself have never had much trouble with marths in general but I have found there to be a distinct advantage to marth in 3 of the neutral stages.

Here is why:

FD - A good marth can chaingrab fox here 0 to death but usually only gets 30 to 40% off each grab if they dont mess it up. The lack of platforms also hurts if you had wanted to aim for one in close range recovery or for moving around the level. Its almost always good for fox to have platforms against marth as long as he cant hit you from them easily. Which is why dreamland would be the best level to fight marth if it wasnt for the high ceiling. Whats good about this level for fox is that there is alot of room to move around and shine combos are viable. U throw to u air is never interrupted and its easy to follow their DI if need be. Also if your a good enough fox you really shouldnt get grabbed that much anyways but it still is a deciding factor.

Battlefield - If you land on one of the platforms here there is a good chance your gonna get tipped or at least get up tilted into annoyance before you can get away. The fact that marths range cover in front of him at the bottom as well as extends to the platform above him makes it very hard to approach marth. Also foxs recovery gets ***** here. Every fox has been "battlefielded" at least once. You can ride up the side of the level to avoid marths attacks and even trying for a platform (if in range) is almost useless as marth can still hit you from the ground. The level also feels somewhat cramped for fox since the platforms are so big in comparison to the main level. This is my least favorite level to play marth on.

Yoshis story - They should rename this level to marth's story because it is a b**** to play marth on this level. Having a good recovery is lessened by the fact that this level is so small horizontally. The stage being small also hurts because a fox likes his room. Plus marth can hit/tip you from the platforms and all that comes along with that which i talked about in the battlefield part is basically true for this as well. Except that marth ***** these platforms even more than on battlefield. Whats good for fox in this level is the low ceiling and that fact that marths recovery is also hurt by the level but thats about it. I honestly dont even think this should be a neutral stage because of the cloud, shy guys, and the fact that marth ***** on it so much.

I disagree. As far as neutrals go:

FD: Marth
FoD: Marth
BF: Fox
PS: Fox
DL64: Either
Yoshi's: Either

Fox vs Marth is probably one of the most even matches in the game.

 

[choknater]

wow this thread has actually gotten good

i very much agree with trademark's tiers
marth fox sheik
falco peach falcon

too good.

 

[trademark0013]

wow this thread has actually gotten good

i very much agree with trademark's tiers
marth fox sheik
falco peach falcon

too good.

yay. i feel so recognized ^_^

 

[REDRAGON]

I disagree. As far as neutrals go:

FD: Marth
FoD: Marth
BF: Fox
PS: Fox
DL64: Either
Yoshi's: Either

Fox vs Marth is probably one of the most even matches in the game.

Fd: Marth
FoD: Marth
Bf: Marth
PS: Fox
Dl64: Fox
Yoshis: Marth

Tis facts!

 

[Pat/Pro]

I respect lord knights opinion because he is a cool kid who is one of the best marths I have ever played. But I still have to disagree with you about battlefield. Battlefield is far and away with FD a close second the hardest level to play marth on for a fox. There is nothing about this level that is in fox's favor. Alot of marths dont really undestand how much a good fox has to change his game to play marth on this level.

5 things go into the marth fox matchup in every level

1. platforms
2. stage size (acutal stage not level)
3. recovery variables
4. ceiling
5. other intangibles (like whether the stage movements, level hazards, etc)

In battlefield lets go through them

1. platforms are extremely marth friendly. There is no level where this is moreso in marths favor (with an argument for yoshis story). The platforms are cramped in limited foxes movement and are at the perfect height for marth to land easy tippers and up tilts.

2. the stage itself isnt very small so it would normally be a pro for fox given his ability to move around larger stages and laser camp choosing his movement and attack points carefully. But the platforms actually cramp this level making this much harder for fox than other stages of its size. The platforms are very large and take up almost the entire stage limited foxes movement and ability to approach marth.

3. Fox's recovery gets f***** here. He cant ride up the side of the stage because he will go under it, forcing him to sweetspot often. He cant recover onto a platform since they are so marth friendly and within his reach. A pro though is it allows for the full extension of his up b but thats about it and is almost eliminated by the aforementioned variables.

4. The ceiling actually is that bad in this level. Its a little lower than final d but is a far cry from a fox friendly ceiling like yoshis story. But out of the other 4 factors this is the most positive for fox.

5. there are none


So 3 out of the 4 things that determine a fox friendly stage are vastly in marths favor. What does this equal out to. The hardest stage for fox to fight marth if not the second hardest behind final d.

So no one tell me that a level is in fox's favor without going through these 5 things in your head first please.

 

[Aesir]

Fd: Marth
FoD: Marth
Bf: Marth
PS: Fox
Dl64: Fox
Yoshis: Marth

Tis facts!

Based on what?

I respect lord knights opinion because he is a cool kid who is one of the best marths I have ever played. But I still have to disagree with you about battlefield. Battlefield is far and away with FD a close second the hardest level to play marth on for a fox. There is nothing about this level that is in fox's favor. Alot of marths dont really undestand how much a good fox has to change his game to play marth on this level.

So because a good fox, has to change his style its a bad match up? No Marths have to change their style a bit to fight ganons yet they win against ganon. Bad argument there.

5 things go into the marth fox matchup in every level

In battlefield lets go through them

1. platforms are extremely marth friendly. There is no level where this is moreso in marths favor (with an argument for yoshis story). The platforms are cramped in limited foxes movement and are at the perfect height for marth to land easy tippers and up tilts.

Not as friendly as yoshi's you can't get easy tippers like you claim they just don't happen. I remember when I started to use this stage and thought to use it against fox, thinking its just like yoshi. However I learned that wasn't the case missing a few tippers simply because I was comparing it to yoshi. the tipper fsmash is completely different here you have to be almost directly under fox in order to land it which doesn't always happen.

[/quote]2. the stage itself isnt very small so it would normally be a pro for fox given his ability to move around larger stages and laser camp choosing his movement and attack points carefully. But the platforms actually cramp this level making this much harder for fox than other stages of its size. The platforms are very large and take up almost the entire stage limited foxes movement and ability to approach marth.[/quote]
What are you on? fox can do very well on platforms fox is a aggro/camper. Thats how fox's should be playing in your face most of the time even when they're camping its agressive.

the platforms actually do a decent job at letting fox approach, just as long as you're using them intelligently.

[/quote]3. Fox's recovery gets f***** here. He cant ride up the side of the stage because he will go under it, forcing him to sweetspot often. He cant recover onto a platform since they are so marth friendly and within his reach. A pro though is it allows for the full extension of his up b but thats about it and is almost eliminated by the aforementioned variables.[/quote] everyones recovery gets ****ed here, its hardly a variable for this stage when its apparent everyones screwed on this stage. its hard for marth to sweet spot it, despite what you might think you can land on platforms aiming it is the key however. you can fox illusion onto the stage and could probably be okay too. This stage isn't "once fox is off he's dead" stage.

[/quote]4. The ceiling actually is that bad in this level. Its a little lower than final d but is a far cry from a fox friendly ceiling like yoshis story. But out of the other 4 factors this is the most positive for fox.[/quote] upsmash still kills at a ******** precent here doesn't matter. even with DI marths Will still DI off the top.




[/quote]So 3 out of the 4 things that determine a fox friendly stage are vastly in marths favor. What does this equal out to. The hardest stage for fox to fight marth if not the second hardest behind final d.[/quote] Instead of thinking it's hard maybe listen to L2k (LOLZ) simply because he knows the match up better then you. instead of assuming you're good at the game think and realize "maybe I'm not using the stage to my complete advantage. Theres numerious ways to gay out marth on this stage.

For example if marth is stuck on a platform chances are he's gonna eat a bar or a uair, eventually. the weird ledges make it hard to sweet spot and marth needs to sweet spot a hell of a lot more then fox has to, making it easier for fox to edge guard him.

Theres numerious others as well.

[/quote]So no one tell me that a level is in fox's favor without going through these 5 things in your head first please.[/QUOTE]

Learn to use the stage better. >_>

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

from the way this thread is going, the list is gonna change to:

TOP TIER:

Marth
Fox
Sheik

HIGH TIER:

Falco
Peach
Falcon

From what I see in tournaments, more like:

Top: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik
High: Peach, Captain Falcon, Ice climbers

 

[Emblem Lord]

Only one Falco had high placings at FC.

Generally speaking Falco is amazing put his tournament plaings don't stack up to Foxes and Marth's.

In all honesty I don't like the idea that Marth could very well be the new number 1. But maybe he will and maybe people like me who are simply opposed to the idea shoulkd be more open minded about it.

I guess because people have said for so long he can't be number one alot of people just accpeted it. But M2K has started doing alot of different strats since he started using Marth more and maybe that's just what Marth needed. A little extra boost to his game with some new tricks/strats. Kinda like what Ken did when he first hit the scene with Marth.

 

[BigRick]

Instead of thinking it's hard maybe listen to L2k (LOLZ) simply because he knows the match up better then you. instead of assuming you're good at the game think and realize "maybe I'm not using the stage to my complete advantage. Theres numerious ways to gay out marth on this stage.

For example if marth is stuck on a platform chances are he's gonna eat a bar or a uair, eventually. the weird ledges make it hard to sweet spot and marth needs to sweet spot a hell of a lot more then fox has to, making it easier for fox to edge guard him.

Theres numerious others as well.

Learn to use the stage better. >_>[/QUOTE]

Oooh yeah... since Marth has a harder time sweetspotting, he's much more prone to CC dsmashes. BF's platforms make uair juggles easier, and the stage is larger than Yoshi Story. Platforms usually don't slow sum1 down, instead you can become faster if you have a good grasp on wavelanding.

 

[Pat/Pro]

Based on what?
So because a good fox, has to change his style its a bad match up? No Marths have to change their style a bit to fight ganons yet they win against ganon. Bad argument there.

Playing outside of the style that is best for your character is definitely a negative and most definitely not a bad argument.

Not as friendly as yoshi's

If you read what I said you'd see I mentioned that. Although its not always easy to land a tipper if a fox is getting up from a platform marths will almost always get at the very least an uptilt or two.

What are you on? fox can do very well on platforms fox is a aggro/camper. Thats how fox's should be playing in your face most of the time even when they're camping its agressive. The platforms actually do a decent job at letting fox approach, just as long as you're using them intelligently.

The point I was trying to make is that the platform layout makes it more difficult to approach than typical platform levels. This fact is undeniable so surely it is in marths advantage in comparison to typical platform levels.

everyones recovery gets ****ed here, its hardly a variable for this stage when its apparent everyones screwed on this stage. its hard for marth to sweet spot it, despite what you might think you can land on platforms aiming it is the key however. you can fox illusion onto the stage and could probably be okay too. This stage isn't "once fox is off he's dead" stage.

Its definitely a variable because it effects fox's recovery more than it does marths. I honestly dont even want to hear you arguing this point. I have mentioned in previous posts that marth having to sweetspot the ledge is a factor but it is definitely not as much as what is taken away from fox. And if you are playing a good marth usually just illusioning onto the stage will result in a hit.

I said the ceiling was a pro for fox and for some reason you tried to convince me of what I already agreed about you with so im not gonna quote that section.

If I ban FD against a marth 75% of the time they will choose battlefield. So someone should tell the marths of the world that they are making a huge mistake. Dont just assume lordknight knows more about the matchup than me. I play people at the same level as he and am just as knowledgable. If your basing it purely off skill that he knows more than I do than maybe I should have told you to just listen "simply because I know the matchup better" than you.

The fact is I would say that most good marths would say that battlefield is a bad spacie level and would be in marths favor in the matchup. Perhaps its just a bad level for L2k. I have never seen a good fox counter pick with battlefield and I see marths do it all the time. There must be a reason for that other than me feeling that its in marths favor.

 

[Pat/Pro]

Plus about the ganon thing. I was talking about having to change your style within playing the same character not from having to play another character entirely. There is a huge difference. Especially when one style works better over the other which is the case here.

And I agree with you about the agro camping thing. But being agressive is made harder in the level by the layout is what I was trying to argue. So yeah you can still shoot lasers but being agressive with the lasers isnt nearly as easy as say dreamland.