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Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

TheCrimsonBlur

Smash Master
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Wait, I'm confused. Are people upset that we don't have Jungle Japes, Green Greens, Pokefloats, Corneria, Mute City, and Brinstar on?
I can't speak for others but I'm mostly alarmed at the trend, and what this community is becoming. If you let johns control your ruleset, then the johns will never stop and consume everything. Eventually someone will ***** enough about Battlefield's ledges that we won't have any stages at all and be playing on pen and paper, Dungeons-&-Dragons-style.

Somewhere along the way, the pride in winning on your opponents counterpick was lost, and people started making mental excuses every time the stage went against them. Combined with the fact that bo3s naturally make counterpicks decide the set, some people have just got fed up with it and want to play on neutrals all day everyday.

The net result is that new players are bewildered when we reduce a stage-list to what looks to them like the same stage (3 platform archetypes) and are thus put off by the community and its lack of variety, and like a self-fulfilling prophecy, we end up like the caricatures our critics made us out to be.
 

Beat!

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Cactuar, we don't know each other, and we live in different countries...

... but if we ever meet, I'm buying you lunch.

Yeah.


I really like where this is going. The smaller stage list is nothing but beneficial to competitive play. Sort of dislike Japes and KJ for teams, but it's great anyway.
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,974
Somewhere along the way, the pride in winning on your opponents counterpick was lost, and people started making mental excuses every time the stage went against them.
Yeah, I don't know when this happened. Whenever I lost on counterpicks in the past, I always wondered what strategies I could have employed in order to do better. When I beat a local Peach player on Brinstar with Marth, the whole crowd cheered (despite that it was a 7 minute campfest), and I felt pretty good.

Now most players seem to just complain; "I would have won if it weren't for ****ing Brinstar." It's not any different than saying "I would have won if it weren't for Peach." But that's what a scrub is: a player who is able to convince himself that some excuses for losing are ok, despite not being defined by the game itself. He comes up with self-imposed rules the game does not acknowledge, and he tells himself that his opponent should feel worse for not abiding by said rules.

With a game like Smash scrubbiness ends up taking precedence over playing to win because we can't just play the game out of the box.
 

stelzig

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Århus, Denmark
I'm only going to address this once:

Please refrain from posting Europe vs USA comments. We are one community. The only thing that makes Armada or Amsah different in smash from anyone else isn't where they live. It is how they play.

I don't make posts about "Europeans" or "Americans" being foolishly prideful of their region just because a handful are. Stop generalizing the whole based on the comments of the few.



That aside: I tend to agree on the Euro ruleset being pretty phenom. :)
Might be a late response, but I thought it was pretty obvious I was generalising. I also assumed that spam_arrows was generalising about the melee and brawl community in the post I was replying to in the first place. (and i'm still assuming that)

Sorry for a little off-topic post here, but I guess it doesn't hurt too much with a little off-topic in between this long discussion ^x^

Edit: Also have to continue a little here, but at least I won't make a new post about it, heh... I already told you once spam_arrows, the average american works more than the average european and this means you have LESS free time. Just saying. The rest of your post is also silly. And you're overrating ICs/wobbling. That is all.
 

Bones0

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How come the reasons given for banning stages are never the ones I hear other people presenting as the arguments? It's always **** related to what character you play or johns or an inability to be good on the stage. I've never seen anyone make an argument that any of those are reasons to ban stages...
 

KirbyKaze

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Spiral Mountain
I'll humor you by asking for what characters/how so? (A legitimate question; I had fun on the stage, but I never really tributed much thought to why it's banned)
It's more conducive for time out-based strategies against slower characters as someone like Fox (I don't want to give the impression that he's the only character that can do this, but he's the most obvious candidate for it). Characters are forced to overextend massively in order to even have a chance at hitting Fox on this level in a lot of positions and he can play a runaway game in such a manner that he'll very rarely be cornered because there's almost always another platform to go to. This, of course, assumes your character is fast enough to go after him. This is kind of like the KJ64 argument, only Fox kills incredibly efficiently on the level too, and there's no "dip" in the middle of the stage to provide shelter from laser fire. So it's way more extreme.

Fast characters can stay ahead of others on the track. In doing so, you put the slower character in a horrific position because they're forced to "approach" or wait for another platform to come by (which isn't always possible, and it forces them to endure incremental losses [if the faster character has a projectile]). It heavily favours characters with high air mobility (in some way or another), for this reason. Ground-based characters get shafted very hard.

Lack of ledges screw up a lot of traditional recovery games. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I feel it heavily powers up characters with set KB or high BKB moves (or things like Peach down smash). Characters reliant on long combos are hurt by the stage's layout; there's so many places to tech and weird angles for edgecanceling to help them escape. I understand that "learn the level" mitigates this to some degree, but I still feel that standalone moves (and characters with them) are empowered to the point where it's really style-constricting for a lot of characters, and extremely disadvantageous for others.

That's the gist of it.

I think Corneria and Green Greens enable a lot more traditional fighting styles and still enable ledge games and other things that many characters absolutely need to recover to exist (Pokefloat's lack of edges gives massive bias to characters with high double jumps and low lag recoveries). They don't exacerbate speed deficits to the same degree (it's still pretty bad on them, but not quite as bad IMHO). I think the fact that the levels are mostly solid chunks of land that don't really change or force you to move allows the gameplay to be closer to what most characters are good at, or even capable of doing.

I could see an argument for Corneria & Green Greens having random factors that make them worse than floats, but I think floats overcentralizes gameplay harder and emphasizes a very specific style of gameplay so in terms of level design I think it's worse. Maybe exploding apples ultimately are the worse feature and skew it to Green Greens, but I don't think Pokefloats is at the very least comparably horrible.
 

Niko45

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Fox isnt even that bad on brinstar. This ruleset doesnt favor fox more than previous rulesets. Fox does better the more stages you allow cause he's guaranteed a great cp.

:phone:
 

Acryte

Smash Ace
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Mar 30, 2005
Messages
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I agree with KK about pokefloats, that stage definitely overcentralizes, but RC I feel is adequately paced enough with enough plats (including ones the person on top of it can't drop through) that it should be a counterpick. I don't think that a matchup there is literally free whereas it wouldn't be on any of the other stages (though it may provide some advantages for characters aka the definition of a counterpick).

Also, I seriously don't understand the japes hate, anyone who actually plays japes isn't going to be killed by the klap trap often. People who don't play it, yea they're probably going to get ***** a bit. That just makes it a solid counterpick though. It's inconsistent for people who don't play there.
 

Bones0

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I thought you were suggesting the new rule set is worse for Jiggs vs. Fox than the previous. If that's not the case, all you are arguing about is PokeStadium, so mentioning Jiggs vs. Fox is just beating around the bush. That matchup isn't a good reason to ban PS.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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I thought you were suggesting the new rule set is worse for Jiggs vs. Fox than the previous. If that's not the case, all you are arguing about is PokeStadium, so mentioning Jiggs vs. Fox is just beating around the bush. That matchup isn't a good reason to ban PS.
I am arguing that Jiggs is worse vs. Fox now than before. She had Brinstar before, and now she doesn't, while Fox retains his counterpicks.

Whats so hard to understand here?
 

Max?

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A few things

1.) Cactus and Strongbad just straight up ****** this thread.
2.) The less stages the better.
3.) Sets should stay Bo3 at least at Locals, I can understand Bo5 for Bracket at Nationals. I might be biased because Tri-State tournaments tend to draw 50+ people and already start/end really late, but I can't see a justification for this for EVERY single tournament match.

Continue on scrubs.
 

Acryte

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I wouldn't call KJ a fox counterpick, high ceilings, sweetspot only edges... I mean he can run away and circle a bit if he wants but not many foxes really do that there anyways.

RC has its benefits but it's not like jiggs doesn't have great aerial mobility, so even if fox did pick RC with the low ceilings at spots, he could go stall a bit under the stage elements until it lowered back down to the ship (not an indefinite stalling, no worse than waiting for a PS transformation). Otherwise jiggs is fairly comfortable jumping around and throwing out aerials. Not really that bad a stage for jiggs if you play it right. The difference is how fox players who didn't play the jiggs matchup right got taken off the edge a lot on FD, BF etc, and now, if you stay towards the center, you don't have to worry as much about easily losing that stock. Same with jiggs. Jiggs just needs to learn where she needs to be.


@MAX: "2.) The less stages the better. "
Why is this the case? If anything I banning Brinstar made spacies more viable.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
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i disagree with some of what you said about floats KK, but its completely irrelevant considering im totally fine with floats, corneria, and green greens gone

the gist of it is, fox has to put himself in position to be killed at 30% from one good read in order to effectively "stay away" from the opponent, and there are several spots on the level where you can pretty reliably plan in advance in order to get yourself what more or less equates to an edgeguard opportunity

also, what characters are actually reliant on long combos these days, IC's? maybe a cg'ing marth, but he can still get some early ko's here, and his big sword controls a lot of air considering how much everybody has to jump on this level

corneria, on the other hand, forces people to deal with foxes bair and approaching him from above at the same time, unless they just want to leave him alone down, which leads to the timeout

regardless of these stages, im gonna miss these stages, probably gonna just use my own rules
 

UltimaScout

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...as if RC and KJ were ever his counterpicks vs. Puff. Foxes went to Yoshis or Stadium, and they still have that pair of stages.

Are you trollin me right now Bones or are you serious? This is fairly simple.
Why are you obsessing over fox vs puff match up so much. There is so much more encompassed in smash, that to not change stages around because of one match up would be silly. Fox vs Jiggs isn't the future of all smash, so why dwell on it?
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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Why are you obsessing over fox vs puff match up so much. There is so much more encompassed in smash, that to not change stages around because of one match up would be silly. Fox vs Jiggs isn't the future of all smash, so why dwell on it?
I could go on and explain other matchups, but I think Puff v. Fox is the easiest example in discredit the idea that "This ruleset doesnt favor fox more than previous rulesets."
 

Acryte

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He's not just referencing that, it's basically like the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Fox is the top char, and does well on almost every tourney stage we allow. The only stage that might be considered a legit counterpick against him is Brinstar. Now its toast.
 

BigD!!!

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fountain of dreams is worse for falcon than brinstar is for fox

toss a no bans allowed in bo5 on top of that
 

Mew2King

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Yeah I do agree on that part. Jiggs and Fox and Falco are chars that do NOT need to get stronger, unfortunately, they are good on opposite stages

With the analogy of the rich get richer, which does make sense for game balance, I would say Rainbow is definitely worse than Brinstar in Melee. Brinstar doesn't have as much of a defined best character (Jiggs and Peach probably, but it's not as bad as RC for Fox), while Rainbow you pretty much need to be fox/falco to **** there. That's why. But generally they should both go or both not go.

Man, let's just freaking have a tourney with like, every stage legal, even mute city. It'd be so fun. Not competetively as good imo but it would be pretty fun. Doin the same thing all the time does get kind of boring tbh
 

Krynxe

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Most puff players won't be to happy about the change in Kongo Jungle/Brinstar.
Quoted for emphasis.

The whole "who cares, it's puff" thing is no good, but thanks for the positive feedback. :p

Puff players have feelings too!


Who am I kidding? Puff players are soulless *******s.

*:troll:*
"Oh, I guess Cactuar is a pretty cool guy after all! :b:"
*Shows hidden message*
:urg:

Jiggs lost Brinstar, but I don't see how Fox retains his counter picks. He lost RC and KJ.
Jiggs has had the advantage on KJ64 over fox, it was a decent cp for jiggs in that matchup but obviously wasn't quite the best place to bring him. (KJ64 is very useful for other MUs for puff though) Having lost BS and KJ64, with DL64 always being banned, FoD is really the only viable place to bring fox. (Besides BF) Either way, all the remaining maps are generally small and simply not in puff's favor. (I'm not implying they should be in puff's favor, just that having to bring your opponent to a stage they're better on it kinda bull**** for a counterpick.) I'm going to go ahead and jump on the "Counterpicks are meant to be counter picks" bandwagon, with obvious puff bias. I'm more supportive of BS being returned than KJ64 though, since I can see how ridiculous stalling is on KJ64. I also agree with m2k on the RC ban, it's quite a bit unbalanced.

Edit:
Man, let's just freaking have a tourney with like, every stage legal, even mute city. It'd be so fun. Not competetively as good imo but it would be pretty fun. Doin the same thing all the time does get kind of boring tbh
Watching people at MLG playing on like pokefloat does look rather fun. People should at least lighten up and do friendlies on other stages, a small tourney would be interesting. (Of course counterpicking would be a bit ridiculous, ban temple and random only.)
 

Niko45

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Well yea characters that lean on brinstar are worse off from this set vs fox.

But like, for the vast majority of
characters, who don't care about brinstar, all I see is Fox losing CPs.

So I guess he's better against puff and peach but worse against everyone else.
 

Max?

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Well yea characters that lean on brinstar are worse off from this set vs fox.

But like, for the vast majority of
characters, who don't care about brinstar, all I see is Fox losing CPs.

:phone:
Agreed

Also to all the people who are saying that getting rid of these stages has made the spacies better, have you ever fought a Falco or Fox on Kongo and have them run away from you the entire time?

If not move to Tri-state.
 

Acryte

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Yea, I think they should have it to where maybe it was a side event for tourneys, where they could have a "legalization testing" for levels. Players play on the levels and tourney test them but at the same time, each player should be asked how often they play there. You don't want people who never play there and SD alot to determine how "random" or "stupid" a stage is.

Then we could also see whether stages like Onett are actually legitimate. Things like the cars don't allow fox to camp the side of the screen because they are forced to approach or shield them which gives a major advantage to the opponent... plus the edge there could give invincibility to chars with decent options like a good bair. And the shine wall infinites would last less than one in a PS transformation. That one might be circle broken though.


MAX: that may be true of Kongo but even if that did warrant a ban, it still doesn't say anything about why Brinstar should be banned. I think we should concentrate more on why a level should be banned more than why it shouldn't. That's like saying we are guilty until proven innocent.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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Well yea characters that lean on brinstar are worse off from this set vs fox.

But like, for the vast majority of
characters, who don't care about brinstar, all I see is Fox losing CPs.

So I guess he's better against puff and peach but worse against everyone else.
"Everyone else" is an exaggeration, but yeah, in some ways that is true. Characters like Doc and Ganon can breathe a sigh of relief knowing that they won't have to deal with Foxes willing to take them to Kongo or Cruise.
 

Mike G

███████████████ 100%
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Y

Man, let's just freaking have a tourney with like, every stage legal, even mute city. It'd be so fun. Not competetively as good imo but it would be pretty fun. Doin the same thing all the time does get kind of boring tbh
You should have been around for the early days of melee where we had choose one character only for the entire tourney, no items, single elimination, all stages.


It puts hair on your chest hair. lol
 

Max?

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Acryte, I think a number of people have stated why Brinstar is bad, there is nothing more I can contribute towards the conversation. I actually like Brinstar and have taken people there a number of times in tournament.


Imo, people overestimate how good space animals are on neutrals, most spacies HATE FoD and FD (at least vs. characters who can CG them). So bam, those two will most likely be removed in striking and you get one or the other vs. them when it comes to stage bans.
 

TheCrimsonBlur

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On the for real for real tho, as much as I care about this stagelist stuff, its whatever. Thats mostly just me having the heart of fire about anything and everything smash-related.

Just give me bo5s and I'll be happy.

bo5s

bo5s

we should do

bo5s :bee:
 

Max?

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You know what, let's just make every tournament match best of 11 or more. I'm sure that I'll come back against Mango and completely figure him out after game 5 and sweep the rest of the set.
 

FerrishTheFish

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Banning/legalizing a stage based on character matchup alone is, in my view, illegitimate because character is chosen after stage is chosen. There is nothing stopping you from learning a second character who complements your main by doing well on your main's less-favorable stages--I main Link and second Falcon, for example. That being said,

In Defense of Less Stage Variety:

[COLLAPSE="Hidden"]While I would personally lean towards more stage variety (and whaddya know, I'm "new" 8P), I do think that the limit to variety should be determined by whether any viable character--viable being based on how often that character is mained under the current system--is made nonviable because more than one second must be learned to fully complement that character in terms of good/bad stages. Yes, there is circular logic present in a definition of "viable character" that is based on the current system, but changing the stage list will also change the system and, thus, the definition of a "viable character." In other words, making the stage list smaller would (ironically) benefit lower-tier characters because now you can main anyone you want and have a pocket Fox to take care of all those troublesome stages and matchups your main can't handle :grin: [/COLLAPSE]To sum it up: I think the gravity of a stage's presence should be judged based on how many characters that stage's presence makes nonviable.

Ex: I main Character A. Stages 1-6 are legal stages. Character A is only good on Stage 1, so I choose to second Character B, who is good on Stages 2-6. Stage 7 becomes a legal stage. Character A is not good on Stage 7. No other character is good on Stages 2-7. Character A becomes nonviable.

In Defense of More Stage Variety:

[COLLAPSE="Hidden"]I'm going to be blatant here and say that I think it is wrong when one character is good on all the legal stages, or possibly all but one--I will loosely define this as "superviable." This is because, if this player gets a ban, this character cannot be CP'd. I know a lot of people want this "pure" player vs. player, skill vs. skill, but the fact is that no single stage can possibly have no effect on every matchup. The only way to mitigate this is to A) allow both players slightly-favorable CP's (which I honestly think the current list of neutrals pretty much does), and B) make sets bo5 so the set isn't decided based on one CP.[/COLLAPSE] To sum it up: I think the gravity of a stage's absence should be judged based on how many characters that stage's absence makes superviable.

I think we can make the "more stages" people happy if we ensure that every viable character has one unfavorable neutral and at least one unfavorable counterpick. Then we can make the "fewer stages" people happy if we institute bo5's (to ensure matches are not decided based on one CP) and Taj's Better Rule.
[COLLAPSE="Taj's Better Rule"]
A player may ban ONE neutral stage or ALL counterpick stages.[/COLLAPSE]Humongous wall of text, but that's my two cents on the issue. ㅎ>
 

Bones0

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@Cactuar from SotG

Using single ban/DSRM for best of 5s.

Falco vs. Jiggs

Stages in order from best to worst for Falco (obviously they are the same for Jiggs, but reversed; these are based on my preference, but shouldn't be too unreasonable):
1. YS
2. PS
3. BF
-----
4. FD
5. FoD
6. DL

Stage Strike:
1. Falco strikes DL
2. Puff strikes YS
2. Puff strikes BF
1. Falco strikes FoD

Game 1: FD
- Puff wins, bans YS
- DSRM has no effect

Game 2: PS
- Falco wins, bans DL
- DSRM bans FD

Game 3: FoD
- Puff wins, bans YS
- DSRM bans PS

Game 4: BF
- Falco wins, bans DL
- DSRM bans FoD

Game 5: FD

When you replace the corresponding numbers, you get the same pattern I got before, but without stages assigned to each number: 4-2-5-3-4

When you do a best of 5 without bans, however, you will tend to get stage choices like this (w/ DSR instead of DSRM):

Game 1: FD
- Puff wins
- DSR has no effect

Game 2: YS
- Falco wins
- DSR bans FD

Game 3: DL
- Puff wins
- DSR bans YS

Game 4: PS
- Falco wins
- DSR bans FD, DL

Game 5: FoD

This has a much clearer tendency to be played on HARDER counter picks despite more evenly matched stages being available. Simply keeping in mind games 2 and 3, it is clear there is a much greater focus on winning game 1, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid by playing a best of 5 instead of a best of 3. The corresponding numbers for this set are: 4-1-6-2-5


To sum up a comparison from the examples above, we get a simple mathematical way of justifying how my process will result in more competitive
sets. I am simply finding the difference between the stage's value that was played, and how far off the value is from what the value of the ideal fair stage would be, which is valued at 3.5 because it is in between the 3rd and 4th stage.

My process: 4 2 5 3 4 => .5 + 1.5 + 1.5 + .5 + .5 = 4.5
Current process: 4 1 6 2 5 => .5 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 1.5 + 1.5 = 8.5

There is a CLEAR discrepancy between the balance of a set played with 1 ban, DSRM compared to one played with no bans, DSR. Game 1 is the same for both. Games 2 and 3 for both sets are the most radical (because DSR/DSRM is not being applied), but for my process they are the second best counterpicks for each player as opposed to their best counterpick. Games 4 and 5 for the current process end up being the radical stages played on games 2 and 3 in my process. In my process, games 4 and 5 are played on the two most fair stages. Another great advantage to my process including bans is that players are in more control over what stages they play on. Using the example above, if the Falco wanted to try his hand at DL instead of FoD, he could have banned FoD in place of DL, and DSRM will never interfere with these ban changes because it only goes back to the most previous victory.

Additionally, for best of 3/7 sets, this same method can be used! There is no need to have different rules for sets of different lengths. All a player going to their first tournament will need to know is how to stage strike (1-2-2-1 is simple enough), how to ban the stage they like least, and that they can't pick a stage they've won on. That is fairly simple compared to having to remember what process to use for what set length, and what they are allowed to ban/pick.

Hopefully everyone (including Cactus) can see the benefits my system provides to the stage selection process. If you made it this far in my post, give yourself a pat on the back and help support this! ^_^


tl;dr:

Stage bans prevent the most radical counter picks and results in games/sets being more competitive than ever.
 
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