Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Redd]

Brinstar... lol.

That is all. GET EM CRIMSON

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Chaingrabbing is "enabled by the stage" now?

uuuhhhhh

 

[Strife]

I think you are only partially right.

"weaker players" who are striving to be more competitive and raise in the ranks, I'm betting would all votes for a skimming of the stages the same way a top player would.

Its only the "new" players who argue for stage variety. Seriously, lower level players who are competitve still hate brinstar. Its only the real newbies who are really gun-ho about stage variety.

I disagree. Firstly you need to remember that separating old/good and new/weak, is difficult to do because these terms are not independent of each other(an old player is more likely to be good and a newer player is more likely to be weak)

I think people who value an enjoyable experience over making money are those who are more into a more liberal ruleset. I'd bet even weaker players who are trying to be competitive would still be in favor of a more liberal ruleset. I feel like there are more or perhaps just as many people in the smash community who would prefer a more liberal rule set, but these are the people who ''don't matter''(not my words, these are how people on these boards refer to them) and don't have much influence,

My point is that it's bad for the MBR to decide how the game should be played based on what they want because the mbr is not a representative sample of the population. You must meet specific criteria and be accepted by the mbr members already in place to be permitted into the group, and therefore the mbr itself could be said to be made up outliers in our community and it's kind of ****ed up for a single group(white people for example) to decide what's best for the rest of the population.

 

[Mew2King]

I just think if a top tier character becomes EVEN BETTER, then the stage should go. Jungle Japes is too undeveloped right now to really be able to see if it's broken or not. I would think it IS broken though, because of random (NOT TRUELY RANDOM BUT IT MIGHT AS WELL BE RANDOM UNLESS YOU'RE FOCUSING ON IT EQUALLY ALONG WITH THE MATCH; AND IF YOU SAY YES, THEN I CALL BULL ****) klaptraps and the easiness to camp on a side of a stage with a projectile. But it's too soon to say for sure right now, but if I had to take a guess I'd lean against it but I'd like to see it before dissing it though.

Brinstar and RC have GOT to go in BOTH games. If a top tier character (like fox/falco for example) becomes A LOT better on RC, to the point that you almost need to pick up a fox/falco in order to compete there, then that's dumb. A really good character shouldn't become broken to the point that you NEED those characters to have the stage. Sadly, pokemon stadium almost falls into this category anyway =/, so I'm glad that's not a neutral anymore.

 

[DelxDoom]

I just think there's no reason to go straight to 2 or have a more liberal stagelist instead of staying at 6 stages.

???

what's the mentality here? There's no optimization if you're staying in a middle ground. If the point of removing a couple stages is to remove stage influence on the matches, yoshi's and dreamland are also pretty drastic changes to battlefield. pokemon stadium probably going to go too.

 

[Cactuar]

Chaingrabbing is "enabled by the stage" now?

uuuhhhhh

I can explain what that statement means if you want, but it's pretty straight forward...

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Gross man

how cactuar makes me feel

 

[Cactuar]

Lmao.

<3

**

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

<3 Redddddd

Fighting the good fight

@TCB: I wouldn't use Vanz as your example...

Why? I just saw him post something in the Big House thread.

I can explain what that statement means if you want, but it's pretty straight forward...

Explain please

 

[Jim Morrison]

Explain please

...Platforms break chaingrabs. On FD, chaingrabs bring you to the edge and you have to go off the stage for it to break, which sure is an advantageous position...

 

[Cactuar]

1) Vanz is a Peach main who happens to be notorious for using Brinstar whenever possible. Bias.

2) The specific context was 0-death CG's by Marth on FD. FD enables uninhibited chaingrabbing. The other 4 disrupt that ability to chaingrab (but not necessarily combo) with platforms.

Edit: Lol, I didn't even need to explain it.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

...Platforms break chaingrabs. On FD, chaingrabs bring you to the edge and you have to go off the stage for it to break, which sure is an advantageous position...

i'm hoping crimson already knew this, and he's seeing it from a deeper perspective? :|

this, and the fact that someone like falcon or mario or marth can double their combo length atleast, on FD.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

1) Vanz is a Peach main who happens to be notorious for using Brinstar whenever possible. Bias.

2) The specific context was 0-death CG's by Marth on FD. FD enables uninhibited chaingrabbing. The other 4 disrupt that ability to chaingrab (but not necessarily combo) with platforms.

1) And you are a Fox main who'd benefit from Brinstar being banned. I thought we were trying to throw potential biases out the window. Maybe the reason Vanz picks Brinstar is because he views his wins as legitimate and isn't just doing so to abuse the system?

2) Wouldn't it be way, way more accurate to say that the other 4 DISABLE chaingrabbing? You are making FD out as an outlier because it is different from 4 stages that you picked yourself. Well if the stagelist had Mushroom Kingdom 2, Corneria, etc. then FD wouldn't look like an outlier at all. Are we at the point that we are criticizing stages simply because they don't fit the 3 platform mold of Battlefield?

 

[Strong Badam]

I main DK and counterpicked Fox/Falco/Falcon to Brinstar for years and think the stage should be banned.
hunngnggggygngngngn

 

[Mike G]

1) Maybe the reason Vanz picks Brinstar is because he views his wins as legitimate and isn't just doing so to abuse the system?

I don't understand this. Isn't the primary reason for Peach players to counter pick Brinstar is because of the fact that the stage has elements that benefit her? Because the lava is no bueno for fast fallers?

Or Does VanZ always go there regardless of character?

 

[Strife]

Cactuar I'd really like you to address my statement.

You've basically said that the criteria you use to ban stages is that we don't want to play them. But who is ''we''? I'm pretty sure you're just taking the mbr into account, and again the mbr is a non-representative sample of the population. They are a sub-culture within the community and thier views and wants don't reflect the wants of the entire community.

Am I the only one seeing how ****ed up this is?

 

[Teczer0]

Knowing Vanz, he'd go there regardless of character. He's played me on it with his falco and mario or some ****. He honestly just loves that stage.

 

[Strong Badam]

LOL
at least we didn't work with the admins of the website to make sure that tourneys that don't use our ruleset can't get stickied. that would be horrible. good thing that doesn't happen in the smash community.

 

[Acryte]

Its goal is mainly to increase consistency of results, ...

Yes, but how would you base that consistency, most look at it as "this player is really good and a consistent winner on neutrals etc, he SDed and or lost on RC to someone". This is how you look at it, but that is different than saying "Does this player consistently win on stage X (because he is good at playing on this stage) or are his results inconsistent even when playing the same person again on that stage, simply because of the nature of the stage.

Also, Fox has an advantage on many stages, but RC isn't all about chasing the stage, it's a balance between movement, positioning, and choosing when to approach. You can't really stay solely on the defensive because the constant movement will force you to move toward the edges of the screen or leave you near the lower ceiling. I think it's a legitimate counterpick. Does counterpicking RC give fox a larger advantage than counter picking PS with it's low ceiling. To be honest it doesn't move at a fast enough rate to necessarily hurt slower characters and elevate fox THAT much more. Moreso, a player's ability to play on that stage from experience will be the biggest deciding factor aside from the general tier/matchup disadvantages.

Also, if PS is legal as a cp (common cp used by spacies) then why wouldn't you keep brinstar as a cp that other characters can take them to? Just because your character has to play differently doesn't mean the stage is broken.

Glad to see jungle japes get some love. Honestly, you have a stage that has what? a low floor blastline which means no stalling down there, ceilings that don't allow for spacie imbalance, and it promotes never staying on the edges for extended periods of time, the klap trap makes these tactics risky and thus disadvantageous. By it's very nature the stage discourages things like planking, running away, and abusing ledge invincibility. At the same time, the stage also promotes offense and opens up various options that are unavailable on most stages... the gaps between the raised side platforms and the lowered main platform allow for extra spike opportunities, especially using meteors due to the low floor, these moves can actually provide KOs. The Klaptrap is only a threat really on the inner edges, and thus doesn't stop you from recovering to the edge when knocked off the sides. Although there is water below, because the sides are raised, you still have room for sweetspots. The water can allow for extra recovery distance when on the right, and an extra escape option for spacies (but tight enough not to be a legitimate circle route). Both sides have moderate blastlines. I still think the Klap trap is not enough of a reason to ban Japes, because it only factors into poor decision making. Otherwise, the Klap Trap actually works to encourage players to engage each other.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I don't understand this. Isn't the primary reason for Peach players to counter pick Brinstar is because of the fact that the stage has elements that benefit her? Because the lava is no bueno for fast fallers?

Or Does VanZ always go there regardless of character?

I always got the impression that he just loves the stage. Lava is his thing or something. He goes there with his ICs ffs.

I'm sorta like that with Cruise. I love the bright colors lol. Marths pretty bad on there but damn is it fun. The part before the boat (when you have to rush down cause the either the yellow blocks or the platforms) is really hectic and exciting. Gimping people off the top is the best.

*sigh*

 

[Cactuar]

Driving home, bbl.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

If you really want consistency of results, just do FD only.

Good luck Fox mains

 

[mers]

This is awful, but not unexpected.

 

[BigD!!!]

there are multiple ways of looking at smash, and this ruleset embraces one of them in an effort to destroy some others

a long time ago i used to think tournaments should be fd and bf only, and i got into an argument with vidjo once about yoshi 64. he thought it should be legal, despite the laser camping from the far right cloud that is possible. i said, "but what about the fact that most characters cant make it back if they jump out there?" he said something like, "there are like 8 characters that can make it back after jumping toward the far right cloud, if you cant play any one of them, then you deserve to lose on that stage"

you could choose to embrace the variety that sets smash apart from every other game, and expect people to learn to handle the demands of different situations. thats not what most people want, but its nonetheless completely valid and not simply dismissible. i value the skill it takes to know 2 or 3 characters to account for any situation.

on another note, oh my god i hope i never meet anybody who pulls that neutral start **** on me

also, how the hell did jungle japes sneak in there when cactus doesnt wanna see random **** happen, that stage is a goddamn mess

lastly, i probably play falco more than any other character in tournaments lately, and hes ****in good on brinstar, i wish that was still on

 

[kevo]

I almost get this feeling that when new rulesets and stagelists come out people HAVE to complain. This is the singles stagelist I've been playing forever, what's the big commotion? Half the tournaments I see on the listings already use this stage list. If some crappy rule/stage comes out and people don't like it, TO's just won't implement it.

I like how bare the stagelist is; it encourages TO's to APPEND stages they want to the existing list. The recommended list is considered "essential", so it would be more unusual if a TO wanted to a run a tournament without Dreamland, rather than a tournament with Brinstar.

 

[Bones0]

Getting chain grabbed on FD sucks, but at least I can safely identify that it is entirely a result of my opponent's skill, and not the luck he has in his interaction with the stage.

@Cactus: What was your response to Bones0 proposed ruleset change regarding strinking and DSR in his first post o nthe first page? I personally think its the best post in the thread so far.

<3

YO, CACTUAR. BEST POST. YA HEARD?

 

[BigD!!!]

kevo, the problem is that whenever TOs deviate from the mbr ruleset, tons of dudes go in the thread and start sayin **** like "what the **** how am i gonna make it out of pools at a national if i play 1 match on brinstar at this tournament???"

we have a history of this in the mw, ive even been on both sides of the argument over the years

 

[LlamaSensei]

I am personally against the singles stage list. As a local TO for Memphis I'll be sticking to the previous stage selection. I still haven't seen a good reason why those stages were removed. Saying they are not played much is not a good reason for removal.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I almost get this feeling that when new rulesets and stagelists come out people HAVE to complain. This is the singles stagelist I've been playing forever, what's the big commotion?

Well, yeah, I'd expect for this ruleset to be pretty similar to what you've been using your whole smash career; you joined only a few months ago.

People are alarmed because of this:

I think its particularly alarming that the stage list has gone from 16 to 6 in the last 2 and a half years.

2008 MBR stage list (though it was widely used until late 08-early 09)
Random select: FoD, Stadium, Cruise, Dreamland, Kongo, FD, Battlefield, Yoshis
Counterpicks: Green Greens, Japes, Mute, Floats, Corneria, Peach's Castle, Mushroom Kingdom II, Brinstar

to

2011 stagelist
Neutral: Yoshis, FoD, FD, Battlefield, Dreamland
Counterpick: Pokemon Stadium

The majority of our community's history we've had a much more liberal stage list. This trend of reducing the stage list is a recent phenomena. We've made stages that were argued neutral (Rainbow, Kongo; though Brinstar was a neutral for a long time too) to ban and our entire counterpick list is gone. It pretty hard to discount the trend since its fairly blatant.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I am personally against the singles stage list. As a local TO for Memphis I'll be sticking to the previous stage selection. I still haven't seen a good reason why those stages were removed. Saying they are not played much is not a good reason for removal.

You clearly haven't read much of this thread if that's all you've gotten out of why they were removed.

 

[Bones0]

I've never played on someone's Cube who had any counter picks other than PS on random. Self-explanatory, really.

 

[Kal]

That's part of the reason I see newer players thinking the stages are janky, in my opinion. They're so unfamiliar with the non-starter stages that, if they lose on one in tournament, they think it's just a gimmick.

 

[EthereaL]

Where is PokeFloats?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wait, I'm confused. Are people upset that we don't have Jungle Japes, Green Greens, Pokefloats, Corneria, Mute City, and Brinstar on?

 

[leffen]

What KK said. Everyone who arent frequent whine posters agree and love this new ruleset, the whiners are really just a vocal minority.

 

[tarheeljks]

I also don't understand the argument that the cloud is random. I've met plenty of people who are perfectly capable of accounting for it, since it's on a timer. It's not all that hard to memorize where it will be and when.

You also have to measure the actual impact (along with the frequency of the impact) of something random to assert that it's hazardous. Even if the cloud were random, the vast majority of the time it has no impact, or almost no impact, on the match. To say that it can occasionally screw things up, and thus should not be a starter stage, would be like saying Peach's down-B is too powerful because she occasionally pulls a Bob-bomb.

with you here

 

[EthereaL]

I think the rule set, as-is, is slightly better in terms of fairness. However, I was hoping to see them add in more counterpicks as opposed to removing them.

*cough*

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pokefloats is horrible. I'd openly and happily argue it's worse than Green Greens and Corneria.

 

[EthereaL]

I'll humor you by asking for what characters/how so? (A legitimate question; I had fun on the stage, but I never really tributed much thought to why it's banned)

 

[Kal]

What KK said. Everyone who arent frequent whine posters agree and love this new ruleset, the whiners are really just a vocal minority.

The fact that they're a minority is sort of the point. =/