@Kal:
You realize you are spending more time complaining about how we formed the framework of the ruleset than taking this golden opportunity to have an impact on what becomes of it right?
How am I supposed to make any sort of point when you'll dismiss all of it according to your subjective preference? You already maintain, ideologically, that Brinstar and Mute City should be banned because, as per your poorly defined "player vs. player purity," these stages are not "player vs. player."
If you want your democracy, I am presenting it. Otherwise, accept it. Complaining accomplishes nothing if it is not accompanied by a proposal for change backed by reason.
I see you writing a lot of words, but not really saying anything, as none of it is relevant to me.
So be it. It seems you'd rather have people prove, according to your subjective criteria, which is already defined in such a way as to ban these stages, that these stages should not be banned.
What would you like me to say? You haven't addressed anything in my first wall of text (save for claims about your democratic process). What about where I explain how this "player vs. player vs. stage" notion is ill-defined?
Or is that not worth addressing? I'll quote it just to bring it to the foreground.
2) "Player vs. Player vs. Stage"
Some like to argue that a stage like Brinstar introduces a mechanic of "player vs. stage," which they claim does not exist in the starter stages. This is nonsensical, however: given two different stages, there will necessarily be different strategies invoked on each stage. Why is it ok for players to need to manage space better on Yoshi's Story, or to have to keep in mind that there are larger gaps between the platforms there, and to keep the low ceiling in mind; why is it ok for players to need to compensate for moving platforms on Fountain of Dreams, and account for the very high ceiling; why do people have to learn to maintain pressure better on Dreamland due to the very large space, and account for the very high ceiling?
Because it's part of the game. But, for a reason no one has sufficiently explained, lava on Brinstar and the cars on Mute City are somehow different enough to warrant a ban.
TOs should keep in mind that the only way to completely remove the player vs. stage element is to have a Hax-style ruleset of exactly one legal stage. Battlefield is a good choice, but I'm more prone to picking Green Greens.
I also go through the trouble of addressing randomness, which you also seem to have ignored. I've explained why the logic behind calling a stage neutral based on how it affects matchups is circular, and you seem to have ignored that as well.
So, you want me to explain why certain stages should be legal, but you want to avoid the more important meta-discussion about what should and should not be banned in general? You'll always have "player vs. stage" as a response to anything I mention until we've come to terms with the term.
Yeah, I don't get that either. All these people complaining about a lack of standards for banning stages, yet no one has suggested a good standard for banning stages...
I mentioned minimalist banning quite a few times. And, though I haven't made it explicit in this thread, I've mentioned many times before what standards are appropriate for banning things. So, I'll provide the following (though I doubt this will have any effect on anything) as a set of criteria:
1) Peach's Turnip Threshold - Anything random whose impact (read: expected value) is greater than that of Peach's Turnip should be banned.
2) The Sheik Threshold - Any strategy that makes unviable more characters than Sheik makes unviable should be banned.
3) Game stopping glitches - Any glitches which prevent the game from being played should be banned (e.g. Ice Climbers freeze glitch).
The second point can be substituted for something more conservative if you'd like (e.g KishPrime uses single-character brokenness). I think the Sheik Threshold is about as liberal as it gets for banning things in order to maintain balance.
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I was under the impression we used BO3 to save time though. Not by choice.
