Teams Tier List: version 1

[exarch]

Everyone knows that teams is a different game from singles, from the very obvious removal of 0-130 chaingrabs, to frequently demanding more effective (yet riskier) edgeguards for fear of a teammate's assistance.

Due to these differences, the tier list is affected. Certain characters find themselves more effective in singles than in teams, and some benefit greatly from having a teammate around. Recently, a multi-region panel

Spoiler

Read: while I was still in the MW

took it upon themselves to rank the individual characters in their effectiveness in teams.

While I am pleased with how it turned out for a first draft, it is far from perfect. I am hoping to spark discussion on the nuances of teams and move toward a better ranking of all characters abilities in teams. After all, teams is my favorite event.

We attempted to rank characters on certain abilities.
Important Teams Aspects:

• Quick damage payout - Extremely important when a long combo can be interrupted by the other teammate.
• Useful kill move/Gimps - The ability to effectively take stocks at lower percents is vital.
• Survivability/Recovery - Useful for the opposite reason as the kill move.
• Edgeguarding - Necessitates edgeguarding effectively on the FIRST hit. Elaborate but safe edgeguards don't work nearly as well as in singles.
• Overall speed - Ability to move across the stage to help your teammate faster.
• Effective at Saving - Increases your teammate's survivability.
• Less emphasized aspects
  • Danger to teammate - How likely a character is to kill their teammate.
  • Ability to 2v1 or 1v2 - Important for late game, means very little in the overall scheme of teams.

Spoiler

Disclaimer: These are the aspects I remember discussing currently; we might have brought up other points as well.

The Teams Tier List:
Top
Fox
Jigglypuff

High
Falcon
Peach
Falco
Sheik
Ganon

Upper Mid
Marth
Doc
Zelda
Samus

Lower Mid
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
Ice Climbers

Low
Yoshi
Roy
Link
Game & Watch
Donkey Kong
Ness
:mewtwo: Mewtwo
ichu: Pichu

Bottom
Kirby
Young Link
Bowser

What follows is a brief description of why the characters find themselves in their respective positions.

Spoiler

Top
Fox -

Spoiler

Basically the character perfect for teams, he does everything someone would want when playing teams.

Jigglypuff -

Spoiler

Free rest lol. Also good at saving, recovering, and gets free edgeguards because it can go so far off the stage.

High
Falcon -

Spoiler

Very much like fox, but worse at gimps and more of likely to knee his teammate to death. Also gets gimped more often.

Peach -

Spoiler

Great damage payout, recovery, ability to save, but very slow overall and doesn't have good kill moves.

Falco -

Spoiler

Damage ***** and does everything amazingly, but tends to lose stocks early.

Sheik -

Spoiler

Doesn't have her CGs, but is still sheik.

Ganon -

Spoiler

Great damage payout and kill moves, benefits hugely from having a teammate that can help him back on the stage. Tends to kill his teammate.

Upper Mid
Marth -

Spoiler

Not nearly as effective as in singles, since his long edgeguards get interrupted. Great stage control and can get easy tippers sometimes.

Doc -

Spoiler

Kill moves, edgeguards, nothing particularly outstanding about doc in teams, but still a good character.

Zelda -

Spoiler

Toe is amazing at 20% and early kills. (Think knee with better control and 2 in one SH.) Good recovery and survivability. Great teams character compared to singles.

Samus -

Spoiler

Yes, below Zelda. Lacks kill moves and not spectacular at damage. Her recovery frequently takes TOO long, and tends to do a lot of damage to her teammate.

Lower Mid
Pikachu -

Spoiler

Upsmash, recovery, gimps, edgeguards, and quite speedy.

Luigi -

Spoiler

Great damage, recovery is long enough for teammate assistance, not bad at killing, very fast on the ground.

Mario -

Spoiler

Nothing particularly outstanding or limiting about Mario in teams.

Ice Climbers -

Spoiler

Terrible teams character, gets bounced around frequently, loses grab combos, but still have wavesmash for good damage and kills.

Low
Yoshi -

Spoiler

Good damage and recovery, has a few gimps

Roy -

Spoiler

Tends to have bad damage, but effective edgeguards, and can survive for a surprisingly long time with good DI.

Link -

Spoiler

What damage? Good survivability and decent edgeguards, but tends to use projectiles and that always causes issues for teammate.

Game & Watch -

Spoiler

Extra light, but otherwise is pretty good in teams.

Donkey Kong -

Spoiler

Gets tossed around, but survives well, does damage quickly, and otherwise isn't bad at teams.

Ness -

Spoiler

Good priority in fair and useful kill move in bair, extra special ability to heal lol

Mewtwo -

Spoiler

Another large character who can be tossed around. Decent kill moves and priority for a low tier, but let's be honest we're getting to the bottom here.

Pichu -

Spoiler

He's fast and has nair and upsmash, but is horribly light and has no range.

Bottom
Kirby -

Spoiler

Hapless character is hapless.

Young Link -

Spoiler

Terrible teammate (projectile reliance,) bad kills moves, damage, and very light.

Bowser -

Spoiler

Tends to get tossed around the stage like a useless turtle, but hey, he's got upb.

----
So where did we go horribly wrong? Who's better than who we have ranked above them and why?

To be honest, we had a very difficult time ranking Yoshi/Roy/Link and an even harder time with GW/DK/Ness/M2/Pichu, so more research and opinions are needed on those characters abilities in teams before I'm comfortable with where they're ranked.

 

[rhan]

Young Link on a team is actually better then what you think..

 

[sanchaz]

GET JIGGLYPUFF OFF THAT!!! I'm willing to have a month long debate on why thats bullshiz!!!

and not because fox counters puff either.

 

[john!]

so you finally made it eh?

also, you haven't seen frank's young link yet

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

zelda is too high

 

[exarch]

Young Link on a team is actually better then what you think..

The main problem I have with these arguments is that you have to add who he is better than on the list. I could see him moving over kirby maybe, but over too many other characters is a stretch. You also gave no concrete reasons why he's better than we think..

GET JIGGLYPUFF OFF THAT!!! I'm willing to have a month long debate on why thats bullshiz!!!

and not because fox counters puff either.

You're ridiculous. Stop trolling.

so you finally made it eh?

also, you haven't seen frank's young link yet

This is version 1... to be updated later. Although my bet is the MBR will takeover this project.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

switch marth and ganons placement
put zelda below mario

switch sheik with captain falcon

 

[hungrybox]

yaaaaaaay exarch

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

also doc being five placements higher than mario is too way too much

 

[Doser]

I think both Falco and Sheik are better teammates than Peach.

Namely both have ways of interrupting someone across the stage more quickly than Peach. Sheik has the faster run speed and needles, Falco has lasers.

Falco can mix up recoveries, so smart Falcos do not necessarily lose stocks faster than others. If you guys are making a tier list assume that the Falcos are good.
Similarly to Samus, Peach's recovery can take too long and thus hurt her teammates.

Sheik and Falco have a better move set to quickly capitalize on mistakes than Peach does in a team setting. Peach may be a stock tank, but I've seen M2K do some crazy tanking as Sheik with the ledge stall. Let's also not forget how brutal Sheik's gimp game is. Where as Peach's edgeguarding can get ****ed up more easily in teams.

 

[sanchaz]

The main problem I have with these arguments is that you have to add who he is better than on the list. I could see him moving over kirby maybe, but over too many other characters is a stretch. You also gave no concrete reasons why he's better than we think..

You're ridiculous. Stop trolling.

This is version 1... to be updated later. Although my bet is the MBR will takeover this project.

look at tournament placement, look at the character: her speed is way to slow, gets hit randomly A LOT!

"but she has a one hit kill move"- okay fine, do you have any idea how HARD it is to get that move off, EVERYTIME jigglypuff rest you its your fault. characters below her can punish the hell outta that. talk to everyone that mains jigglypuff, and more importantly, look at tournament rankings. IF AND ONLY IF I SEE A JIGGLYPUFF TEAM PLACE TOP 5 at like genesis 2, I'll watch the matches to see how it happens.

And yes I'm calling you out, I don't mean to harsh, but where is the evidence. Smashers from other regions, back me up here.

Doser: lol yea, sheik should be higher, like tied with peach, its just that I've never seen a sheik team. not sure how she works, but kirbykaze and m2k make it work.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Falcon doesn't work well with a lot of characters, just basically Fox and Jiggs. imo Sheik and Peach are better.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol Pikachu is way, way too low. One of the best teams characters. ICs are way better than their listed position too. But maybe I'm biased because I've been watching Chu wreck in teams for so many years.

But whatevs, do your thing exarch. This is a decent idea. At the very list it'll make people stop asking about it.

 

[LightsOutAce]

Falcon may be better in teams, but he's still Falcon. he can be easily punished and edgeguarded, even in teams, and the random knee isn't that hard to avoid if you're being vigilant like you should. And any character can punish a grabbed opponent, so that doesn't count as making knee easier to hit.

In summary, he should be moved below Shiek.

Also, I think Peach should be below Falco at least (maybe Shiek) because she's too slow in many situations. Yes, she controls space well, but so does Falco, and Falco can deal damage and kill/gimp waay faster. Plus he can save/interrupt a combo with lasers.

 

[exarch]

@Doser

While both do have better ways of interrupting across the stage, Peach requires less space to do her work, and can stay closer to her partners than falco or sheik easily can (since she's slow.) She also has turnips, and is one of very few characters who can make jigglypuff think twice about off edge-edgeguards. She is also slightly better at saving her teammate; she can do so without leaving herself exposed (Falco's lasers are similar but require significantly better timing and are therefore far more difficult.)

While falco can mixup recoveries, if he is wrong in his mixup his stock is OVER. He does not have a recovery with multiple chances to recover, and therefore is a very difficult teammate to assist when recovering. (He is either perfectly ok, or already dead... rarely in the "I'm in trouble come help me" mode.) That is, he only takes that one edgeguard hit to kill. Similarly, if both players on the other team are edgeguarding him, he can have all his mixups covered and lose a stock in the blink of an eye. Mixups are not as important in teams as singles. Even good falcos have a tendency to lose stocks faster than almost any other character.

Yes Peach's recovery can take a while, but she usually only runs into those problems when at high percents, when she's attempting to maintain her stock anyway. She doesn't have it much more pronounced than CF or Ganon in those situations, but they generally demand more attention from the other team as they are easier to kill at those percents. She is usually pretty quick to get back on stage. Not on DL, but there are many characters who have long recoveries on that stage. Her recovery doesn't take significantly longer than Jigglypuff's (both are floaty so take a while to come down,) except she usually lives longer than puff.

As far as capitalizing, Peach has well spaced dsmash on grabs which does not break the grab and only tags huge %, as well as an upsmash stronger than fox's if she's looking for the kill (although both of these are difficult to space.) Sheik doesn't have really anything to compete with Peach's quick punishment (at the worst peach can tack 14% in many ways; sheik's single moves do comparative damage.) Falco's Fsmash or quick shine combos are probably better, but his biggest problem is recovery.

Peach has offstage edgeguarding only surpassed by jigglypuff, and gimps very well. The biggest problem with peaches in teams is they don't take offstage risks. It's teams: where staying on the stage is asking to be interrupted (since all her moves have mediocre knockback,) and going offstage can have huge benefit in the long run for your team. When peach is offstage, very few characters can stop her from edgeguarding their teammate (like puff.) Sheik's gimp game is also easily interrupted just by edgehogging (assuming she's not gimping falco and you can get there in time.)

Overall I agree that tier is incredibly close together, and completely understand that you disagree, but I hope that you understand we took these arguments for peach to outweigh those for the others. (But it was very close.)

EDIT: Also, holy sticky batman!

 

[Deleted member]

^bad points imo but shiek > falcon @lightsoutace

fox
jiggs
shiek
peach
falco(n)


icies definitely better than mario/luigi

=

a lot of ur guys reasoning isn't very sound IMO, like falcon randomly kneeing teammates...

falco's combos are pretty easily disrupted just cuz falco combos vertically which makes it easy to get interrupted, but still a great teams char

zelda's reasoning is horrid IMO

conflicted reasoning, like saying samus's recovery takes too long so partner gets ***** but luigi's recovery is long enough for partner to save

 

[Juggleguy]

Looks like a decent list in terms of accuracy, but there could be so much more done with this project. The post with explanations/reasoning is really bad; there is a lot to say about teams gameplay, you guys know that, so how can you justify including only one sentence to explain each character's placement? The project lacks credibility overall; who is in the multi-region panel, and where are the statistics on how everyone voted? At this point, I'm honestly surprised anyone thought this was worth turning into a sticky. Put in a more comprehensive effort and then it'll be a topic worth discussing.

 

[exarch]

look at tournament placement, look at the character: her speed is way to slow, gets hit randomly A LOT!

"but she has a one hit kill move"- okay fine, do you have any idea how HARD it is to get that move off, EVERYTIME jigglypuff rest you its your fault. characters below her can punish the hell outta that. talk to everyone that mains jigglypuff, and more importantly, look at tournament rankings. IF AND ONLY IF I SEE A JIGGLYPUFF TEAM PLACE TOP 5 at like genesis 2, I'll watch the matches to see how it happens.

And yes I'm calling you out, I don't mean to harsh, but where is the evidence. Smashers from other regions, back me up here.

Doser: lol yea, sheik should be higher, like tied with peach, its just that I've never seen a sheik team. not sure how she works, but kirbykaze and m2k make it work.

Jigglypuff is a tiny resticle, there's no way it gets randomly hit more than other characters; she's a smaller target!

If you mean everytime she rests you in that you had to tech a direction and picking the first two options would have meant running into her teammate and getting grab rested, so instead you pick the first option and get rested out of your tech, then yes you're completely right it's always your fault when you get rested. Just like it's always your fault when fox drill-shine-upsmashes you or Marth tippers you or Ganon fairs you. The main point regarding rest is there is incredibly diminished risk for the same reward.

Similarly she can edgeguard almost exactly the same as she would in singles in teams. I think every other character changes how they edgeguard because they have to keep in mind the other teammate.

lol Pikachu is way, way too low. One of the best teams characters. ICs are way better than their listed position too. But maybe I'm biased because I've been watching Chu wreck in teams for so many years.

But whatevs, do your thing exarch. This is a decent idea. At the very list it'll make people stop asking about it.

I agree that pika is a great teams character, but I also think everyone above him is better than him in teams.
Icys also may deserve a bump, but man nana tends to get ***** if the other team has ANY idea what it's doing against Icys.

Falcon may be better in teams, but he's still Falcon. he can be easily punished and edgeguarded, even in teams, and the random knee isn't that hard to avoid if you're being vigilant like you should. And any character can punish a grabbed opponent, so that doesn't count as making knee easier to hit.

In summary, he should be moved below Shiek.

Also, I think Peach should be below Falco at least (maybe Shiek) because she's too slow in many situations. Yes, she controls space well, but so does Falco, and Falco can deal damage and kill/gimp waay faster. Plus he can save/interrupt a combo with lasers.

Actually Falcon has significantly better recovery because his can have so many attempts to make it back he almost always gives his teammate enough time to try to help him. (Seriously very few characters kill him quickly if he recovers high.) He is much more difficult to edgeguard in teams because his teammate is there to cause disruption/help him.

He is also extremely fast, so he can get to the grabbed character quickly to punish it, or to his teammate in need of help.

I also personally do not think sheik is mega-good in teams. She doesn't do a ton of damage quickly (compared to many teams damage *****s,) and does not have amazing kill moves (compared to those with very good kill moves.) Maybe her edgeguarding makes up for it, but I really need to be convinced about sheik.

But like I said, that tier is extremely close. We could have put all of them in slashes but that is a pretty riskless (/lame) way of making a tier list imo.


-------
@Stooge

Does CF not end up killing his teammate more often than Fox/Jiggs/Peach/Sheik/Falco/Marth/others? It was one of the less emphasized points, as I wrote in the introduction, but something we did note when discussing falcon. Also if you don't think that's a big problem for him, I wonder why you put sheik over him?

The problem samus' recovery suffers from is people assume she's going to make it back on, so I have to go 2v1 her teammate. Luigi recovering usually draws attention too him since he's easier to kill on recovery. But you make a valid point. The main point you should be drawing from those is that in teams luigi's recovery is not as bad as it is in singles, and samus' is not as much of a strength. A lot of what is listed in the reasoning is in comparison to how a character performs in singles.

-----------
Also I'm very pleased that most disagreements are usually on single/very few placings or switches.

-------------
@Juggleguy, As far as the explanatory post, I was trying to avoid too many TL;DR's. The rest of the thread is meant for the more to say about teams gameplay. Every project needs a start somewhere, so take this as a first step toward creating a better version of this. I'm not sure why this got stickied either, but certainly does look official now, doesn't it? This will be improved upon; you don't have to disregard it because you don't like step1.

 

[FrootLoop]

I'd have falco above peach too. Her saves aren't really spectacular and I have doubts about her damage payout. If the other team is actively working against dsmash, peach can't really get much going. Falco's recovery isn't that bad. I wouldn't even put it as below average. The only thing peach has above falco is her recovery, otherwise falco outclasses her.

Young link's kill moves are fine, and his speed, aerials, and projectiles help him work with every situation. All his projectiles save well. Ness isn't fast enough to get a fair/bair where he wants it in the chaos of teams. Mewtwo is situational to be as effective in teams, and Pichu's lack of range keeps him from contributing to the battle. Kirby is also too slow and generally hapless. I would put YL above kirby, ness, mewtwo, and pichu.

 

[Juggleguy]

@Juggleguy, As far as the explanatory post, I was trying to avoid too many TL;DR's. The rest of the thread is meant for the more to say about teams gameplay. Every project needs a start somewhere, so take this as a first step toward creating a better version of this. I'm not sure why this got stickied either, but certainly does look official now, doesn't it? This will be improved upon; you don't have to disregard it because you don't like step1.

Ah, I was under the impression that you guys sticky'd this yourselves. Now that I know that wasn't the case, I can't blame you guys for not going all out with the first step of this project. It is a good start, I'm interested to see where this goes. Just looking for a more complete explanation post and info on panelists/votes.

 

[rhan]

The main problem I have with these arguments is that you have to add who he is better than on the list. I could see him moving over kirby maybe, but over too many other characters is a stretch. You also gave no concrete reasons why he's better than we think..

Just because I didn't feel like explaining why at 11pm doesn't mean I will. Sooo... you can step off that high horse..



Anyway he's definitely better then Pichu/Roy/Kirby/Mewtwo/Ness/GaW/Yoshi due to his mobility and speed. He's also able to help his partner easily with projectile and he can use his low stun moves to either save or help his partner. He also has high priority moves (Nair) and his bombs come in handy all the time. His combo ability and follow up ability allows him to hold his own (to a certain extent) and strong together team combos for KOs. D-Smash is a great kill move. Nair kills. Uair can cause juggles and pokes.

His recovery is good enough where he doesn't need his partner to save him and it can also prevent edgegaurding against him.

Nair is a great way to edgeuard.


Done for the night.

 

[exarch]

I'll work on an updated explanation post to append tomorrow, and also probably take "Official" out of the title, since a sticky plus "official" makes a look a little more official than I wanted this post to be, in a dramatic case of irony.

Also maybe falco is better than peach, and good points have been made about Ylink. That's what version 2 is for.

specifically @ rhan
Alright, I just didn't want you to be one of those who said one thing and ran off. Good points so for, I'll be looking forward to your other posts tomorrow.


EDIT: Getting off for the night

 

[rhan]

I'm cranky. Sorry if I seemed like a ****.. Insomnia is a *****.

But yeah I can find some team matches of either myself and the fellow YL players so youc an get an idea of what he can do in teams.

 

[Bones0]

Surprised at how high Captain Falcon is. Every Falcon I've ever seen in teams tends to be the weak link. He can get the occasional random knee, but it seems like most of the game he spends hopelessly recovering as he tries to not get gimped.

Really though, I think there may just be too many variables to make an accurate teams tier list. With all the different character combinations, any character can go from being amazing to being horrible. I feel like it'd be more realistic to create a tier list of the top few tier combinations, but only including the top 7 characters would make the list of teams insanely long (Ex. Fox/Jiggs > Falco/Jiggs > Peach/Falcon, etc.).

 

[john!]

maybe the reason falcon is so high is because i spent like 10 thursdays whining to exarch about how broken falcon is in teams. lol

 

[edgeluca]

I think both Falco and Sheik are better teammates than Peach.

Namely both have ways of interrupting someone across the stage more quickly than Peach. Sheik has the faster run speed and needles, Falco has lasers.

Falco can mix up recoveries, so smart Falcos do not necessarily lose stocks faster than others. If you guys are making a tier list assume that the Falcos are good.
Similarly to Samus, Peach's recovery can take too long and thus hurt her teammates.

Sheik and Falco have a better move set to quickly capitalize on mistakes than Peach does in a team setting. Peach may be a stock tank, but I've seen M2K do some crazy tanking as Sheik with the ledge stall. Let's also not forget how brutal Sheik's gimp game is. Where as Peach's edgeguarding can get ****ed up more easily in teams.

I pretty much agree with this whole post.

 

[ORLY]

Falcon's crazy broken in teams.

Good stuff Exarch!

 

[Mokumo]

i think falcon should be lower. sheik should be at the top of high imo

 

[AXE 09]

Wow. Call me crazy but I think Pikachu should be at least 2 places higher. With that current list I personally think he should be right under Sheik. He's very quick and very good at saving your partner with that amazing recovery, has moves like Fair Uair Dsmash and thunderjolt to get your opponent out of a combo, very good at gimping, and has a very fast vertical KO move.

In 2v1's, he can rapid jab while your teammate is grabbing for an easy infinite, and finish with Usmash. Or just straight up Usmash which is both a KO move and a combo starter.

He's not too bad in 1v2's with his edge game. Ledge hop Uair is very good for sending opponents off stage, where he can go for a reverse tailspike.

I think that Pikachu is one of the best teams characters. Just my opinion.

 

[MTKO]

From what my small amount of experience in teams has shown me, I can agree with the "top" and "high" sections of this list. However, I'm unfamiliar with using and facing characters in the lower tiers on this list due to my lack of team experience. I'm really starting to enjoy teams because of the different type of game play and thinking involved and I really enjoy the overall teamwork aspect of play.

 

[DoH]

I think Peach is better than Falcon in teams.

Even if Falcon is faster, his moves are a lot slower than hers; she can throw out nairs without much risk of being punished, and she generally adds more to a team in terms of complement than Falcon does; you can get better speed and kills with a Fox rather than a Falcon, but no one does damage output, 2 v 1, and tanking to the extent Peach does.

Also I think Climbers should be higher. They can just swoop in and wavesmash *****es, and also if you isolate a partner the climber can take a stock from your opponents with an edge. They should be higher than Zelda, they're much more useful than she is.

 

[edgeluca]

Wow. Call me crazy but I think Pikachu should be at least 2 places higher. With that current list I personally think he should be right under Sheik. He's very quick and very good at saving your partner with that amazing recovery, has moves like Fair Uair Dsmash and thunderjolt to get your opponent out of a combo, very good at gimping, and has a very fast vertical KO move.

In 2v1's, he can rapid jab while your teammate is grabbing for an easy infinite, and finish with Usmash. Or just straight up Usmash which is both a KO move and a combo starter.

He's not too bad in 1v2's with his edge game. Ledge hop Uair is very good for sending opponents off stage, where he can go for a reverse tailspike.

I think that Pikachu is one of the best teams characters. Just my opinion.

Well, you've convinced me

 

[Archangel]

I have an idea but it's gonna be much more difficult...but how about creating a Team-up chart? Something like a MU Chart except where the numbers for that represent who's favor a MU is in you instead have a number that represents the success of a the 2 characters that are aligned. Anyone following?

 

[Mokumo]

that seems like a good idea. it would get even more intense if you did each team in each matchup... that would be a gigantic chart

 

[MTKO]

I have an idea but it's gonna be much more difficult...but how about creating a Team-up chart? Something like a MU Chart except where the numbers for that represent who's favor a MU is in you instead have a number that represents the success of a the 2 characters that are aligned. Anyone following?

I was going to say something about this, but I figured it would be too long and no one would want to take the time to work on it. It would be one awesome tier list though.

 

[AXE 09]

Well, you've convinced me

Yeah I kinda suck at explaining things lol.

But I really think Pika is one of the best in teams.

 

[sanchaz]

I can't believe this, I'm done!!! jigglypuff is 5th or even 6th in teams, look at the tournament rankings, thats it I'm done. Who is getting first at teams people, okay fine, mango plays puff, but that guy played mewtwo and got 2nd in teams, lmao. he's somethin else. show me a good puff and some other character in teams people, prove me wrong! I just can't believe it, the smash community does not how jigglypuff works.

axe: omg pikachu is so cute, pika power, :D

 

[Rubyiris]

I can't believe this, I'm done!!! jigglypuff is 5th or even 6th in teams, look at the tournament rankings, thats it I'm done. Who is getting first at teams people, okay fine, mango plays puff, but that guy played mewtwo and got 2nd in teams, lmao. he's somethin else. show me a good puff and some other character in teams people, prove me wrong! I just can't believe it, the smash community does not how jigglypuff works.

axe: omg pikachu is so cute, pika power, :D

Mango, Hbox, Darc, and The King have throughout the history of smash, placed EXCEPTIONALLY well in teams.

If you actually looked at tournament results, you wouldn't be trying to argue this since the results support Puff being the #2 teams character.

 

[stelzig]

"Similarly she can edgeguard almost exactly the same as she would in singles in teams. I think every other character changes how they edgeguard because they have to keep in mind the other teammate."

They don't so much when that teammate is puff. I agree that puff is too high and overrated in teams (and to an extent singles as well). On this list sheik should be higher too.

Edit: I also think samus should be above zelda and doc, but I may be a little biased here seeing as my teammate uses samus (he does also use doc a lot though, and he does significantly worse when picking him in teams). As for pika idk, I could agree with him going above all 3.

"Mango, Hbox, Darc, and The King have throughout the history of smash, placed EXCEPTIONALLY well in teams.

If you actually looked at tournament results, you wouldn't be trying to argue this since the results support Puff being the #2 teams character."

afaik Isai used to use sheik in teams way back (despite falcon appearently is now considered third best in teams...), aniolas uses sheik in teams now (and performs quite well with armada despite him being considerably worse in singles), and i'm quite confident you'd be able to find more sheiks in good teams throughout smash history than puffs...

 

[AXE 09]

Jigglypuff was used to win doubles at Apex 2010:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cia7w2nPYjU#t=3m27s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIk4R08k20c

And a Jigglypuff was in teams Grand Finals at both ROM 3 (Hungrybox) and Pound 5 (Mango). These are all national tournaments. Jigglypuff is very good in teams lol. Plus Hbox and Mango are just freakin amazing.

And yeah, Pikachu is amazing! =)

And I also agree that Jiggs is overrated in singles, but not in teams lol.