TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[tocador]

Wait a minute.

I think in this fight is important to set a scenario, just because it would make projectiles much more effective, or make a team with more mobility better than one with less mobility(aka horses).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Haven't played FE 1 or 3 in forever (and don't have shadow dragon yet), does Marth get to field more units then Ike?


Ike seems to take it if he does based on superior unit quality (granted I haven't done full combat analysis) but Marth fielding a larger army vs. Ike's smaller force would be both more interesting and more realistic based on their comparative situations.


Quantity/group tactics vs. individual quality?

 

[tocador]

I dont know about this adumb.

Would it be fair for marth to have more units than ike, or are we going to do this because we want marth to win?

Im not criticizing you, its just that i never played a FE game, so i dont know about the game.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I dont know about this adumb.

Would it be fair for marth to have more units than ike, or are we going to do this because we want marth to win?

Im not criticizing you, its just that i never played a FE game, so i dont know about the game.

Ike's unit is a mercenary unit, specifically a special-forces-esque variant. They travel light and with fewer numbers because of their function, they need to be able to travel quickly and their intended function is not to be a main force to to perform special missions or reinforce specific troops.


Marth's unit is a revolutionary army (granted a small one at first). The travel slower and in larger numbers, but are better equipped to deal with large-scale direct assaults.


It's actually unrealistic to treat them simularly because they have such drastically different functions.



Would the change cause marth to win... possibly. But a larger force comes with it's own vulnerabilities, especially in terms of scouting and positioning, this may not effect the overall outcome, or even guarantee a loss.


It's just a different scenario, and one that is more realistic considering what their units are.

 

[tocador]

Yeah, makes sense. And its more realistic than a mercenary unit having the same number of troups as a revolutionary army :D.

Sure lets do it(IMO).

And about scenario, do you think its ok to just be a "wasteland" with no chokes and stuff?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, makes sense. And its more realistic than a mercenary unit having the same number of troups as a revolutionary army :D.

Sure lets do it(IMO).

And about scenario, do you think its ok to just be a "wasteland" with no chokes and stuff?

No.

No matter what we do, that gives a major advantage (relatively) to Marth's forces.


VISABILITY, that's the key here.

 

[REL38]

Two armies don't have the exact same amount of units on either side.

Same goes to army squads and such.


Now then, there has been no say from JOE that both sides must have the same amount of units. It seems he's let you guys decide on who should be used so you guys are pretty mich calling the shots. If you guys deem it fair that Marth get one or two more units on his side, then go ahead. It seems fair to me as the Marth side seems to be lacking while the Ike side is doing very well even though they have less.

Unless JOE starts getting more involved, you guys do what you want.

Btw dragons aren't unrealistic, they just don't exist.
But that's just my 2 cents.

*returns to the bleachers*

 

[tocador]

Btw dragons aren't unrealistic, they just don't exist.

What.....?

 

[UncleSam]

what are you talking about? they sooooooo exits

 

[Sosuke]

What.....?

Pretty sure he/she means like,
dragons are realistic
vampires who need to suck kitten blood through straws are not realistic.

Spoiler

....I have an interesting imagination if that was the first thing that came to my mind. >_>

 

[tocador]

Pretty sure he/she means like,
dragons are realistic
vampires who need to suck kitten blood through straws are not realistic.

Spoiler

....I have an interesting imagination if that was the first thing that came to my mind. >_>

He said that dragons are possible, but they just arent.

What logic is that U.u?

But vamps are realistic.

I AM ONE

Spoiler

fail joke is fail

But no, i didnt think you have too much imagination, because im just like you, a little worse tho.

 

[JOE!]

I'd be fine with giving Marth a few more for the interest of debate.

As long as its not like: "lol marf winz cus he has 9001 unitz"

 

[REL38]

I'm saying dragons could be plausable creatures IRL, unlike fairys or Kirby.

Vampires - humans that would require vast amounts of blood to survive and get burned by sunlight :/

let's get back on topic now. I don't wanna start another stupid debate. Just saying that if FE guys were able to use dragons in game.

*returns to bleachers*

 

[tocador]

I'm saying dragons could be plausable creatures IRL, unlike fairys or Kirby.

Vampires - humans that would require vast amounts of blood to survive and get burned by sunlight :/

let's get back on topic now. I don't wanna start another stupid debate. Just saying that if FE guys were able to use dragons in game.

*returns to bleachers*

What??? You mean he dosent.............

*cries for lost childhood*

 

[UncleSam]

Vampires - humans that would require vast amounts of blood to survive and get burned by sunlight :/

oh what? you mean albinos?
I get it now.

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

squad battle... it shud b a squad of multiple marths vs multiple ikes... o;


the scene is set at death valley on the popstar planet... an army of marths stand on a hill on one side of the valley, an army of ikes on the other. as the sun rises the lead marth is shown giving a speech to inspire his men... his beautiful men all with amazing hair and tiara's he gives them advice on how often to lather, rinse, and repeat and how much hairgel upon finishing his speech he raises his sword high into the air and the sun gleams off of the blades deadly tip and the scene cuts to the ike party where he is giving a speech as well.. informing them to fight for theyre friends NO FAMILIES, FRIENDS ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION! the final lines of his speech are "those who are about to die.... we salute thee" holding his blade in both hands he grunts loudly engulfing his body in flames, the other ikes reciprocate and the top of their hill catches aflame and the fire blazes a trail into the valley as both armys rush into the midst of battle the ikes eat several tippers takeing massive damage but they **** back with a barrage of aether and F-smash spam... fire, explosions, and the tennis racket like Whoosh of a perfectly spaced tipper can be heard and scene everywhere.. it seems all is lost for the marth army as they have taken heavy casualties when suddenly a massive fireball descends from the heavens above crashing into ikes forces creating a crater 400 feet in radius leaving only a few ikes left to battle... from the smoke and ashes a red glowing figure walks out of the gray smog the marths and ikes stare as the figure comes clear one of the marths is heard shouting "TIS ROY OUR BOY!!!" with marths tipper and roys hilt in the arsenal the ikes stand no chance... the become completely and utterly obliterated by the m2k gimp and teh ph1r3... the sunsets and tears are weeped for those lost in battle unable to return to their families.. the remaining marths and roys mount their steeds and ride off into the sunset as the credits begin to roll and random japanse music starts to play


in short neither ike nor marth wins... roy wins next matchup plz o;

 

[UncleSam]

this is RL, Roy doesn't exist.

 

[Nova9000]

I'm saying dragons could be plausable creatures IRL, unlike fairys or Kirby.

Vampires - humans that would require vast amounts of blood to survive and get burned by sunlight :/

let's get back on topic now. I don't wanna start another stupid debate. Just saying that if FE guys were able to use dragons in game.

*returns to bleachers*

But dragons do exist...He could be considered a dinosaur LOL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon

*Now I join REL in the sideline; never played any FE...*

 

[kirbywizard]

Well I agree Marth should have more units then Ike

Revolutionary Army size > Mercenary group size.


It make it more interesting, and if Marth did have his entire Army then Ike's group will do what it does best. Attacking an army from specific locations.





I think the majority of the people that go here just sit on the sidelines, and post every once in a while.

 

[payasofobia]

I am not sure about the increase of units.

How many more units will Marth get?

And more importantly, which ones does he get?

If he gets all the strong mercenaries like Navarre and Oguma, then the quality vs quantity purpose is defeated.

He should only get grunt-level soldiers then.

 

[Emperor Time]

If he get's grunts, it turns into an Ike solo map.

 

[tocador]

Well I agree Marth should have more units then Ike

Revolutionary Army size > Mercenary group size.


It make it more interesting, and if Marth did have his entire Army then Ike's group will do what it does best. Attacking an army from specific locations.





I think the majority of the people that go here just sit on the sidelines, and post every once in a while.

Yeah, you are right, if you check reply's there's like, 8 people with 100+ posts, the rest are 50-80(joins for a couple of mus and round 2) 49-11(one mu, gets crushed, leaves, or mods warning us)or less then 10(fan-boys getting crushed or 1posters).

@Paya: I dont think marth should only get like, a bunch of useless fools. Sure, he will have more man, but if they are useless, their numbers wont serve nothing.

I mean, he should have competent man at least.

 

[payasofobia]

Regarding a single soldier being able to take an entire small army by himself:

http://www.cracked.com/article_17019_5.html

It is not unheard of.

Of course, I am not saying that all of the greil mercenaries are like that (the only one being like that is Ike....probably).

The point is that them being able to defeat teams with twice or thrice their numbers is still realistic considering they are very skilled.

 

[UncleSam]

Yeah, you are right, if you check reply's there's like, 8 people with 100+ posts,

I have 852

 

[tocador]

I was counting people, not posting bots.

@Paya: I saw that link, and now i think rambo is a sissy.

 

[payasofobia]

http://www.cracked.com/video_17813_what-kid-from-christmas-story-would-be-like-at-23.html

 

[UncleSam]

http://www.cracked.com/video_17813_what-kid-from-christmas-story-would-be-like-at-23.html

lol too good.

 

[tocador]

http://www.cracked.com/video_17813_what-kid-from-christmas-story-would-be-like-at-23.html

2gud

102gud

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'd be fine with giving Marth a few more for the interest of debate.

As long as its not like: "lol marf winz cus he has 9001 unitz"

No, FOR REALISM!


Stupid people will say stupid things. We beat them with realist military analysis.

I am not sure about the increase of units.

How many more units will Marth get?

And more importantly, which ones does he get?

If he gets all the strong mercenaries like Navarre and Oguma, then the quality vs quantity purpose is defeated.

He should only get grunt-level soldiers then.

No, he should be getting his best soldiers too.


The thing your not realizing is that this CAN'T be fought like FE, this has to be dealt with using military analysis.


While they might be technically similarly skilled (and IMO, Ike's units seem generally superior, if only because of additional mechanics), they have VERY different tactical uses.


Again, far more interesting match then direct analysis.


I need to post a lion-sized post analyzing this tonight.


We really NEED an enviroment though, it will effect the battle drastically.


Forest really advantages Ike. Plains really advantages Marth.


Ummm, hilly terrain with caves shrubbery minor forests and the like?


VERY large combat area (talking about like 20 square miles).

Supply lines consideration a must.

If he get's grunts, it turns into an Ike solo map.

And he'll die.

Against a compitent cammander, a melee warrior of any kind does not have a chance to take down an army (assassination exempted). Heck, against just about anyone.

Of course, I am not saying that all of the greil mercenaries are like that (the only one being like that is Ike....probably).

The point is that them being able to defeat teams with twice or thrice their numbers is still realistic considering they are very skilled.

I agree, a lot of this will come down to commander's skills (needs to re-research FE 1 and 3 before lion-sized post).


But it's not just skills, it's also their style of fighting, Guerilla's tend to have that advantage, their weakness is in holding.

However, their weaponry IS less effective for guerrilla warfare then modern weaponry (less efficient sniping).


To understand, modern insurgents (particular type of guerilla warfare) routinely require a regular army that's 10 times as large as the insurgent group to beat.



Anyone else here a military nerd? I'm really loving this match-up now, this is gonna be great.


Marth needs a true army, though even so, I'm leaning towards Ike currently, just due to individual skills and the advantages of his companions. Full analysis to follow.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

1. I'm sorry, but I really think only those who have played Ike's games and Marth's games should participate here. Actually knowing each character's strengths and weaknesses is vital.

2. If Marth gets more people, it really won't matter. He already has his best squad.

3. Shiida? Will she just ride a horse or what?

 

[Emperor Time]

No, SOLID. With that comes bias.

Adum clearly knows a lot about war, so he stays in.

2.Best squad? Debatable.

3.Later

 

[adumbrodeus]

1. I'm sorry, but I really think only those who have played Ike's games and Marth's games should participate here. Actually knowing each character's strengths and weaknesses is vital.

I have, it's just been a while. I'll pull out my old roms.

Spoiler

You young whipper-snapper, I was playing FE 4 when you were in diapers!

Though honestly, on something like this, it's gonna be mostly about the commanders.

2. If Marth gets more people, it really won't matter. He already has his best squad.

Not just a few more people, make it realistic for what he was doing and his position, a legit army.


No, as much as you might think so, this actually isn't giving marth an "auto-win". Actually thinking about it, doing otherwise is probably an auto-loss for Marth cause he's not used to this style of warfare, and therefore will be ***** ridiculously by Ike.


It's differing styles of warfare against each other, and at face value Ike probably has the advantage, but... full analysis to follow.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I have, it's just been a while. I'll pull out my old roms.

Spoiler

You young whipper-snapper, I was playing FE 4 when you were in diapers!

Wasn't talking about you... Don't assume.

Though honestly, on something like this, it's gonna be mostly about the commanders.


Not just a few more people, make it realistic for what he was doing and his position, a legit army.


No, as much as you might think so, this actually isn't giving marth an "auto-win". Actually thinking about it, doing otherwise is probably an auto-loss for Marth cause he's not used to this style of warfare, and therefore will be ***** ridiculously by Ike.


It's differing styles of warfare against each other, and at face value Ike probably has the advantage, but... full analysis to follow.

I know it isn't an autowin for Marth, where the **** did I say that?

By "best squad" I meant pound for pound the best people he could put on the battlefield, I did not mean that he'd do better with less people, that's ridiculous.

I like the hilly idea with some forest for the battlefield.

Why can't Ike get an army? He's used to fighting with a larger army, just look at in PoR when Elincia puts him in charge of her army, when he class changes.

@ET: LOL how does having played FE cause bias? If you've played with both characters, it gives you knowledge of each character and their units. If anyone here just randomly talking with no knowledge of the game, then that's where we get a problem. Don't assume.

 

[payasofobia]

Smaller mercenary squads also have the advantage of being able to buy much better equipment and hire warriors excelling at warfaring tactics for those small squads.

Large armies usually have budget problems and must buy cheaper materials in order to give armor and weaponry to all of it's units. And usually, their units are not as skilled as mercenaries because of obligatory army service. The only people that would actually be skilled are the knights, and even then their skill could be questioned.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wasn't talking about you... Don't assume.

K, came after my post, I wasn't only one.

I know it isn't an autowin for Marth, where the **** did I say that?

Didn't say you did.

Just deferring criticism pre-emptively.

By "best squad" I meant pound for pound the best people he could put on the battlefield, I did not mean that he'd do better with less people, that's ridiculous.

That's actually not true.

Guerilla warfare, many types of operations, you're often better off with fewer people. It's very important for remaining undetected.

In general, it also confers advantages in mobility and supply line need.

Why can't Ike get an army? He's used to fighting with a larger army, just look at in PoR when Elincia puts him in charge of her army, when he class changes.

He could... but he'd lose, badly.

He's got less experience in that type of warfare and Marth would be trained in it since basically birth (comes with the territory of being royalty).


Marth could do guerrilla warfare too (he did it in a very limited fashion)... but he doesn't have the experience either, he'd lose badly.


Their best warfare style against their opponent's best warfare style is best.


Though Ike should have a larger squad for this too.


Marth needs plenty of generic grunts as well (edit: along with actual good people of course, particularly effective warriors and unit commanders).

 

[Emperor Time]

B/c it seems to me that all you're doing is making a loser build for Marth's team and saying this is Marth's best team he HAS to use them Ike wins, gg.

Marth has a freaking army and a wide range of fighters. Stop limiting him.

 

[payasofobia]

He could... but he'd lose, badly.

He's got less experience in that type of warfare and Marth would be trained in it since basically birth (comes with the territory of being royalty).


Marth could do guerrilla warfare too (he did it in a very limited fashion)... but he doesn't have the experience either, he'd lose badly.


Their best warfare style against their opponent's best warfare style is best.


Though Ike should have a larger squad for this too.


Marth needs plenty of generic grunts as well.

Actually, Ike became a General in PoR for the second half of the game, and defeated another powerful army with his leadership skills using the remmants of the crimean army, just like Marth.

He has been shown to be skilled at guerilla combat and in all-out wars.

Granted, he hated being a general, but he still got the job done.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Actually, Ike became a General in PoR for the second half of the game, and defeated another powerful army with his leadership skills.

He has been shown to be skilled at guerilla combat and in all-out wars.

Granted, he hated being a general, but he still got the job done.

I remember, but Marth still is gonna be much more effective at this type of warfare, more experience and more training.


I'm not saying Ike is bad at it, just that marth is GOOD, Ike isn't good enough.


Anyway... why would we remove him from his sweet-spot, he's gonna be more effective regardless using his specialty.

 

[Emperor Time]

More liek he did it b/c of Soren's help.

 

[payasofobia]

You are right.

Anyway, considering we are giving both of them their best units, and we are using PoR Ike, why don't we give him control of some crimean soldiers too?


ET: Marth did it with Jeigan's and Hardin's help.

And having an advisor and tactician beside you is not a weakness. At all.