TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[Emperor Time]

...W/E

Marth has better long range support with shooters, though.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

B/c it seems to me that all you're doing is making a loser build for Marth's team and saying this is Marth's best team he HAS to use them Ike wins, gg.

Marth has a freaking army and a wide range of fighters. Stop limiting him.

I'm not. When did I say that?

Yeah, so shut up.

That's actually not true.

Guerilla warfare, many types of operations, you're often better off with fewer people. It's very important for remaining undetected.

In general, it also confers advantages in mobility and supply line need.

Yes, it is true, since we're talking about Marth.

He could... but he'd lose, badly.

He's got less experience in that type of warfare and Marth would be trained in it since basically birth (comes with the territory of being royalty).


Marth could do guerrilla warfare too (he did it in a very limited fashion)... but he doesn't have the experience either, he'd lose badly.

Ike has more experience in open warfare than Marth has in guerrilla, but they'll both try to stick to what they're used to.

Though Ike should have a larger squad for this too.

I agree, his squad in PoR included people like Nephenee, Brom, Lucia, Ranulf, etc.

Marth needs plenty of generic grunts as well (edit: along with actual good people of course, particularly effective warriors and unit commanders).

I agree. How many are we talking?

 

[payasofobia]

Ike's team should consist of 15 members.

Marth's should be....35 members?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Why ?

 

[payasofobia]

15 is my favorite number.

Aside from the fact that it is the maximum amount of units he can deploy in PoR.

 

[Emperor Time]

Doesn't seem like you're being objective about it.

You made two builds and it never seemed like you put much merit into Marth's team.

 

[payasofobia]

Because most of them are not that special.

He comes from games with a buttload of faceless characters that are nothing more than grunts... stat and canon-wise.

Hell, they are so forgettable that in the newest shadow dragon, your dead units are replaced with generic soldiers.

Even "important" ones.

 

[Emperor Time]

He made Oguma blasphemy.

 

[payasofobia]

Oguma, Sheeda, Navarl, Jeigan, Shiki, Hardin and Marth are the only exceptions. Oh, and Merric and Minerva.


Those are nine characters in a game with 40+ characters. (I am taking Mystery of the Emblem into account, shut up)

 

[tocador]

*Cheers from out-side the argue*

Woot, take marth down, that biatch.

*hides from flame-wars*

 

[adumbrodeus]

You are right.

Anyway, considering we are giving both of them their best units, and we are using PoR Ike, why don't we give him control of some crimean soldiers too?

We could...

But I doubt they'd be very useful, they're not trained for this type of warfare, and it places a very strong emphasis on individual training.

Yes, it is true, since we're talking about Marth.

Well, mobility and supply lines do come back to bite him, but his style of warfare likes larger numbers.

I agree. How many are we talking?

Depens on how large we wanna scale it.

Ike's team should consist of 15 members.

Marth's should be....35 members?

No.

Ratio of 5 to 1 would probably be best to emphasize their strengths and probably the most pratical.

Probably base that on the scenario.

But prior to considering that, I'm thinking two squads, 50 each?

If we're gonna pick a specific warfare scenario though, that would decide the most likely numbers.

btw, this WILL be a long fight.


Give Ike 20 people.

 

[payasofobia]

No prob. Let me check what characters Ike can have.


Hey, can we bring back the dead?

And, can we add Radiant Dawn's characters?

 

[tocador]

About the warfare, has anyone even has a guess of what could be the war scenario? But remember, it cant favor too much individuals, or favor masses, needs to be somewhat a blend of those.

@Paya: Can we?

 

[Emperor Time]

JOE! said PoR.

 

[UncleSam]

No prob. Let me check what characters Ike can have.


Hey, can we bring back the dead?

And, can we add Radiant Dawn's characters?

>.>
he gets his characters in path of radiance.
I'm not sure about the bringing back from the dead stuff, I don't think that can happen and I'm too lazy to look it up, even then Ike's team wouldn't have the necessary materials to do so.

 

[payasofobia]

Can't we leave it at 10 vs 40?

Most of the characters in PoR are knights, not mercenaries.

 

[tocador]

10 vs 40 I think would favor too much marth, whereas 20 vs 50 sounds more even.

 

[UncleSam]

that's still a 30 person difference.
and the Greil Mercenaries have 10 members

 

[payasofobia]

The entirety of Marth's army vs the greil's mercenaries doesn't seem fair at first glance, but it could work considering 3/4's of Marth's army sucks and the last fourth is still not as skilled as the Greil mercenaries themselves.

And they have fought huge armies themselves too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgvNwec-9bA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoF1tdbL9Bg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO89TSc4p3U



In terms of skill, equipment and strategy, the mercenaries have this for sure.

Marth has numbers, supplies and Oguma.

 

[adumbrodeus]

10 vs 40 I think would favor too much marth, whereas 20 vs 50 sounds more even.

No way.

Anyone remember what I said about military doctrine for dealing with insurgencies?

10 to 1 advantage needed generally.

Granted, this is regular Guerrilla warfare, so certain factors (local support for example) are tossed out decreasing the needed advantage.

But, to even be even, a significant numbers advantage is required.


Anyway, this is about realism, not being even. Considering their differing warfare styles, 5 to 1 ratio is probably realistic without a specific senario laid out (aka, random encounter), cause the numbers I stated are realistic for traveling.

 

[payasofobia]

I hope we don't even out the match so much that it ends in a tie.

That's no fun.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I hope we don't even out the match so much that it ends in a tie.

That's no fun.

Why do you think I'm emphasizing realism?

 

[payasofobia]

This fight is basically Zerg vs Protoss.

 

[Emperor Time]

If Marth get's more guys, stick in Arran and Midia.

 

[tocador]

This fight is basically Zerg vs Protoss.

If the zerg has jaedongs micro, than the protoss are ****ed.

 

[payasofobia]

You mean that Arran and that Midia that sucks bullocks?

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe11/average/alan.html
http://www.serenesforest.net/fe11/average/midia.html

*Tocador: I doubt Marth is a pro-player. He is probably a casual.

 

[Emperor Time]

F the stats.

They're Paladins. They're useful.

EDIT:I g2g soon. If I come back and see this MU is resolved, I will rage.

 

[payasofobia]

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe11/average/

Oh wow.

Shadow Dragon's units are really really bad. Guess what I said was not BS.

 

[tocador]

@Paya: But i mean, if marth can at least rush some fast-hydras the protoss is done for.

But i think marth is a pro-player, have you ever seen his face on war? Just like those 1337-mouth-breathers-programmers of starcraft.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

100-20.

Most fair.

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe11/average/

Oh wow.

Shadow Dragon's units are really really bad. Guess what I said was not BS.

Just remember, unit stats aren't what it's about, even inter-fe-game isn't comparable.


Different games have different max stats conventions.

 

[payasofobia]

Actually, you can compare them pretty well because the radiance games feature some pretty ****ty characters in their games too, and a lot other characters that are just average and are not unlike most SD characters.

It has always been the Greil mercenaries who has been broken themselves.

Example:

Radiant Dawn is perphaps the most difficult game in the series because of their average units and the difference between enemy and player stats were rebalanced.

The Dawn brigade is a living example of this, as well as the crimean army who got nerfed.

Then, suddenly, the Greil Mercenaries appear and the game becomes much easier.Also, the strategy changes from 'thinking carefully what you do while keeping your lord safe' to 'send mercenaries to the east, send Ike to the west, then win'

Or in PoR, where attempting a non-mercenary run guarantees a challenging run because most of the other units are average.

The mercenaries (and nephenee) are the ones that are broken and make both games easy.

-----------

Also, Marth's units being weaker makes sense with the context of the whole quantity vs quality debate.

----------

Anyway, is it an insta-win if the commander is killed?

This could open up interesting new options on how to eliminate the opposition.

The mercenaries would go directly for Marth's throat, but first they must make their way through or around the cannon fodder. And that's when Volke becomes ultra-useful.

 

[tocador]

Or maybe marth could charge ike with 99 other soldiers, and this wouldnt be fun =/.

 

[payasofobia]

There aren't 99 soldiers in Shadow Dragon.

There are 69, without taking away the mages and clerics who wouldn't be usefull in battle.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

If Marth dies... I think it's over. Ike, not so much. Titania could easily command them, they all respect her.

 

[tocador]

OK wait. If marth dies, anyone can comand the army, but thats not the point.

I still dont see a outcome to this battle, whereas ike has better soldiers, marth outnumber him with at least decent soldiers, making this look like a ZvP MU.

ps: ZvP is usually a 6-4 win rate to Z.

 

[payasofobia]

There are 46 realistic characters without taking away the old men and guys who still use some magic to transform etc.

And Tocador, most of Marth's units are not decent. I can count the number of decent units in Marth's army with one of my 8 fingered hands.

Hell, not even Marth, the game's hero, is decent.

The rest are grunts.

 

[Uffe]

You can't determine who is better if the characters have their parties. Because for all we know, a random could just go kill someone like Marth and then suddenly he's better than Ike? Yeah, this should just be Marth vs Ike.

 

[tocador]

You can't determine who is better if the characters have their parties. Because for all we know, a random could just go kill someone like Marth and then suddenly he's better than Ike? Yeah, this should just be Marth vs Ike.

But they are both known not only for individual skill but for commanding armies, so its sure that it isnt going to be "Random grunts OHKO marth/ike".

Plus, we want to breake the routine because we are REBELS, yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spoiler

Dont be such a jerk, let us be happy

There are 46 realistic characters without taking away the old men and guys who still use some magic to transform etc.

And Tocador, most of Marth's units are not decent. I can count the number of decent units in Marth's army with one of my 8 fingered hands.

Hell, not even Marth, the game's hero, is decent.

The rest are grunts.

And i can count the number of usefull units on ike's party with my 3 fingered hands. Sure they can be better, but, are they able to take tons of "units" witought being deceived?

So yeah, the only way quality > quantity, is if the quality is chuck-norris quality, or if the quantity is small.

ps: I still dont see who wins, but just because you said marth = Z, i think marth will win nao. Just because Z > P + T.

 

[payasofobia]

The 8:

Frey (as close as you get to a Mercenary unit's skill)
Abel
Cain
Gordin
Oguma
Sheeda
Caesar
Navarre
Hardin.

The rest either A) Shine in 1 or 2 stats but suck completely in a complementary stat (EG, Massive attack and speed, but only 8 points in skill) B) are prepromoted or C) they are grunts and therefore have bad growths.