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I feel like we are getting way to anal about character height and attack length. If this was a costume I would understand a lot of it but Echoes are considered separate fighters and since this project is made by us I think we could get a bit more creative with it.
That's not to say all of a sudden any character who is vaguely similar to another should be an echo. Rock wouldn't work that great as he has unique animations and style and Yu narukami has a completely different Weapon and fighting style.
As Venus said, this is a TGA reveal, so I think we can be a bit lenient on the restrictions this time around. They're meant to be a bigger reveal, so we can lean a bit harder on the uniqueness.
To be fair, aren't Chrom and Lucina about the same height in Smash when canonically the former is taller than the latter? I think we can make a couple liberties regarding height.
The range of attacks bit I thought of was mainly derived from her. I think Joker's agile movements could mostly be applied to her rapier, but there'd be some attacks where it wouldn't quite fit, like the jab and up tilt. If we're going Ken-style, I think she could just fit, but I could also see why some people would be a bit hesitant.
I was going to talk about her Persona Cendrillon on how the lack of wing it had doesn't really match Arsene but I'll let that slide because there's already echo that had different recovery and I think they work around using her cape or something. And lastly, to be blunt I feel like the length of her sword is probably the same as Marth/Lucina but there's another problem regarding her gun, considering that each party member have one with varying gimmick and Kasumi probably had that as well.
As the resident SNK shill here I personally don't think a a Rock Howard echo over Terry makes the least bit of sense. They have way different build and body sizes and their movesets are more different than they are similar. Not only are most of their normals different, but so are their specials. The only moves that both Terry and Rock have in common are Crack Shoot and Rising Tackle. Rock doesn't have a Power Dunk, Power Wave, Burning Knuckle, Buster Wolf, Power Geyser, etc..
This isn't a simple Ken-Ryu situation, Ken originated as a clone of Ryu in the Street Fighter games. Hence why they all have the same specials in Smash. Rock Howard is an original fighter that has some Terry-inspired moves and some Geese ones. Not only will you be giving him entirely new moves as an echo (both normals and specials), but you'll be giving him new standing/run animations and you'll have to base him on a totally different model as well (Terry and Rock are completely different in build). And at that point... Rock would just be an entirely different character, not an echo.
If you think that 2 characters that can only share 2 specials with each other, while completely being different in build and therefore needing an entirely new model, could work as echoes of each other. Then I need to inform you, that's not really how echoes work lol.
When looking at Ryu and Ken’s normals, there are quite a few variations. I’ve only played a handful of SNK games, including Garou: Mark of the Wolves and I got the impression that Rock could believably use most of the same normals as Terry. Most of his Smash attacks, tilts, and aerials would either fit Rock perfectly fine or only need slight variations. I feel the same way with the specials. He may not have Power Wave and Power Dunk, but he has a similar energy projectile and has used a variant of Power Dunk in the past.
And in terms of build, I definitely don’t think he’s that different. Female Wii Fit Trainer and Male Wii Fit Trainer have pretty different builds, and they’re alternate costumes.
All that said, if the majority feels that Rock Howard wouldn’t fit, then that’s fine. I don’t mind the submission being removed. We already have plenty of great options.
I was going to talk about her Persona Cendrillon on how the lack of wing it had doesn't really match Arsene but I'll let that slide because there's already echo that had different recovery and I think they work around using her cape or something. And lastly, to be blunt I feel like the length of her sword is probably the same as Marth/Lucina but there's another problem regarding her gun, considering that each party member have one with varying gimmick and Kasumi probably had that as well.
Her sword would be pretty long, yeah, but I think Joker's animations would mostly fit her. The only things I think would really need to be changed are the jabs combo, up tilt, down smash, and forward aerial, and those don't seem like too much of a jump. It would still be the same basic frame and animations, just with an extended hitbox.
Regarding the gun, we've had majorly changed specials before, in the form of Chrom's up special. We could easily swap out the pistol for her rifles(?), and change up the mechanics a bit. More power and range in exchange for loosing the sidesteps. Change the aesthetic and effect of her side special, maybe tweek the animation of the Persona up special to make up for the lack of wings, and we're good. Ultimately, it'd only be like five moves changed out of the entire moveset, maybe a bit more for the grabs and throws. I think we can pull it off.
I think Cendrillon's cape could act similarly to Arsene's wings if anything. Her main special attack that would differ would be her neutral special probably.
I can't see Jane Hairbone Kasumi or ESPECIALLY Yu being Joker echoes. The only simmilarity they have is that they have personas. I feel like this is a relic of the pre-Sephirothian belief that the only way a third party series can get a new character is via echoes, and the desire for a second Persona rep.
In the latest Famitsu column, Super Smash Bros. and Kirby creator Masahiro Sakurai shared a few details about Isabelle, the popular character from the Animal Crossing series. Isabelle was revealed …
nintendosoup.com
this seems to imply that moves can be adjusted to fit the character, although it would probably be kept to a minimum, and that being able to share a model is a much more important factor. That being said I think there are a number of characters who wouldn't fit as echoes which have been submitted so far. Other people obviously disagree, otherwise they wouldn't haven't been submitted, so I'm not going to split any hairs unless it looks like they are going to end up winning.
Personally I'm rooting for Leon, as I think the echo should be from the same company. Additionally, the trailer would make sense, and we would be able to focus on one series. This would also be the best time to reveal a Resident Evil echo, as any later date for the reveal would be a little odd, since I imagine the base fighter and echo fighter would be introduced at the same time if the base fighter is a newcomer.
I would support Shadow as well, as him shooting down zombies would be a hilarious reveal trailer, but that would disqualify Eggman who I feel is more important. Plus maybe if we decide on Eggman later, we can reveal Shadow at the same time, and allow for them to both be in the game.
Perhaps we should do a vote on who we think are viable for Echoes. First present all the submissions, do a quick round on who you think shouldn't count and why (Or just say you're good with all of them), then we go ahead with the proper voting process. See what everyone thinks of it.
Perhaps we should do a vote on who we think are viable for Echoes. First present all the submissions, do a quick round on who you think shouldn't count and why (Or just say you're good with all of them), then we go ahead with the proper voting process. See what everyone thinks of it.
at this point would the ones that get disqualified not just simply lose in the actual voting round? There's no harm done if a character that wouldn't really work loses, so I dont know that this extra step is necessary. At the end of the day controversial characters will probably not end up winning, so there might not be any actual cause for concern about an echo that doesn't make sense getting in.
If one does win though we can always contest the results after, which may end up taking less work than arbitrarily defining what qualifies as an echo.
at this point would the ones that get disqualified not just simply lose in the actual voting round? There's no harm done if a character that wouldn't really work loses, so I dont know that this extra step is necessary. At the end of the day controversial characters will probably not end up winning, so there might not be any actual cause for concern about an echo that doesn't make sense getting in.
If one does win though we can always contest the results after, which may end up taking less work than arbitrarily defining what qualifies as an echo.
Yeah, vote first, decision later would probably work better. First we see who's popular, then we decide which of them would be viable. I think that would work a bit better.
Fighting Game Spirits:
Jomosensual submitted Kragg from Rivals of Aether, so I'm adding the other three main characters from each element to balance it out. Plus Rivals is modern and popular, so I don't think its an unreasonable submission. Also since the original Kragg spirit battle was missing conditions I reformatted it and added some, as well as changed the spirit ability since "Power Boost" is not a current spirit effect. I hope you're okay with it Jomosensual
Orcane (Rivals of Aether)
Class: Ace
Type: Primary Shield, 3 Slots
Effect: Water & Ice Attack ↑
Puppet Fighter: Greninja (Default)
Stage: Pirate Ship
Music Track: The Great Sea / Menu Select
Match: Stock (1)
Conditions: The enemy favors Side Special, Slippery Stage, Buoyancy Reduced
Zetterburn (Rivals of Aether)
Class: Advanced
Type: Primary Attack, 2 Slots
Effect: Fire Attack ↑
Puppet Fighter: Curry Incineroar (Yellow)
Stage: Arena Ferox
Music Track: Fight on!
Match: Stock (1)
Conditions: Hazard: Lava Floor
Wrastor (Rivals of Aether)
Class: Novice
Type: Support Grab
Effect: Floaty Jumps, 1 Slot
Puppet Fighter: Falco (Purple)
Stage: Rainbow Cruise
Music Track: Air Man Stage
Match: Stock (1)
Conditions: The enemy favors attacks in the air
Kragg (Rivals of Aether)
Class: Novice
Type: Support Grab
Effect: Green Shell Equipped, 1 Slot
Puppet Fighter: King K Rool (Brown)
Stage: Distant Planet
Music Track: Pikmin Main Theme
Match: Stock (1)
Conditions: Certain items appear in large numbers (Crate)
While we can decide what constitutes as an Echo in Infinite on another date, generally speaking...I group them into one of four categories based on what we saw in Ultimate:
1) Ken Class: Plays extremely different from the base fighter but shares many of the same moves.
2) Chrom Class: Shares similar attributes and stats but has one or two moves that differ from the original.
3) Dark Samus Class: Different aesthetics and properties but no changes in stats or moves.
4) Richter Class: The only difference is the animations.
A few in the thread have voiced interesting in doing an overhaul on the Echo fighters thus making them entirely different but that goes against the whole Echo fighter concept.
To date, the only Echo Fighters we have brought up above the Dark Samus Class is Daisy and, interestingly enough, Dark Samus who both in the Chrom Class. Medusa is in the Dark Samus Class and Octolings are in the Ken Class currently.
What we are striving for here is a fighter in the Ken Class or, perhaps, create a new class that transcends the Ken Class
Just a heads up so nobody thinks I removed someone else's song: I replaced a track I previously submitted, specifically I changed "Built to Scale - Rhythm Heaven (DS)" to "Built to Scape Medley - Rhythm Heaven series (New Remix)". I also removed the "Remix" tags from some other people's submissions that don't have remixes linked.
When looking at Ryu and Ken’s normals, there are quite a few variations. I’ve only played a handful of SNK games, including Garou: Mark of the Wolves and I got the impression that Rock could believably use most of the same normals as Terry. Most of his Smash attacks, tilts, and aerials would either fit Rock perfectly fine or only need slight variations. I feel the same way with the specials. He may not have Power Wave and Power Dunk, but he has a similar energy projectile and has used a variant of Power Dunk in the past.
And in terms of build, I definitely don’t think he’s that different. Female Wii Fit Trainer and Male Wii Fit Trainer have pretty different builds, and they’re alternate costumes.
All that said, if the majority feels that Rock Howard wouldn’t fit, then that’s fine. I don’t mind the submission being removed. We already have plenty of great options.
I don't think it's quite fair to compare this entire situation to Ken and Ryu's. Ken and Ryu still have the same base model, the same stance/running animations, the same specials with some modified attributes (minor stuff like the total count of hits of tatsumaki senpukyaku) and still have some overlapping normals. And you can't compare it to Wii Fit Trainer's case either, because It's not really only the difference in build that's what keeping him from being an echo, but the fact that you'll be making a new model on top of making new animations and that already being on top of the fact that they only literally share one move so you'll have to create new ones.
Let me follow you through some major differences between Rock and Terry.
1. The difference in build and physique: Rock doesn't look like Terry at all, let's be real here. Rock looks more like Kyo in build than he does Terry. Rock is way slimmer and has a totally different fashion style. Rock doesn't have Terry's big guns, big chest and literal muscles popping out of his jeans. Rock neither has Terry's cap nor has the same jacket. To reflect this, we're gonna have to make a new model for Rock and we can't reuse Terry's one due to the major differences.
2. The difference in stance and animations: Everyone who has either played Garou or at least watched one or two clips of it knows the fact that Rock and Terry have a completely different stance animation (See: Spoilered Below). This change would've not been a big deal and would have just elevated Rock to Dark Samus-tier Echo, if not for the fact that we're already making an entirely new model for him as well.
3. The difference in moves: This one's the meat of the comparison. As I've said before, Rock and Terry only share one move which is Rising Tackle. I was a bit lenient by calling their Crack Shoot similar in my previous post, but in Garou Rock's Crack Counter is a counter so that's something you're gonna have to change as well. As about Rock's Reppuuken (which he took from Geese btw), the animation is wildly different from Terry's Power Wave and Rock can shoot 2 consecutive shots. Which already makes this special entirely different for as far as how projectiles go. You mentioned something about a Power Dunk-inspired move and I assume you're talking about one of Rock's Rage Run, if this were the only change from Rock to Terry it would've been fine, but as you can see from everything you've read already, this is simply not the case. And these are just addressing the changes for these certain moves. We still haven't addressed Burning Knuckle, Buster Wolf and Power Geyser as those are moves not performed by Rock and will have to need alternatives as well on top of the aforementioned Power Dunk, Crack Shoot and Power Wave.
And we're not even delving into the normals, I can't imagine for the life of me Rock doing Terry's aerials, safe for maybe his up-air which is already a move unique to Smash. I'm scared this is turning into one big essay so I'll just post some awesome gifs of Rock doing air moves that do the talking themselves.
None of these look like Terry's aerials in Smash
And I'd also like to end this note on the fact that Garou, the game where Rock comes from, doesn't use GO (Terry's entire gimmick) for his supers lol.
I get that you love Rock and want to rep the boy in Smash somehow, but trying to deform him into an echo of Terry would basically be slander at this point and I hope you understand. I love the edgy boy as well, and Garou: MotW is one of my favourite games, it's definitely a game I'm very passionate about.
That being said, people can still vote for Rock if they want. I just hope I've at least convinced some people that he wouldn't fit as an echo. If you're making a new model, on top of creating several new moves and animations for that character, and only reusing one move. That's way past an echo and Rock is more than that.
I don't think it's quite fair to compare this entire situation to Ken and Ryu's. Ken and Ryu still have the same base model, the same stance/running animations, the same specials with some modified attributes (minor stuff like the total count of hits of tatsumaki senpukyaku) and still have some overlapping normals. And you can't compare it to Wii Fit Trainer's case either, because It's not really only the difference in build that's what keeping him from being an echo, but the fact that you'll be making a new model on top of making new animations and that already being on top of the fact that they only literally share one move so you'll have to create new ones.
Let me follow you through some major differences between Rock and Terry.
1. The difference in build and physique: Rock doesn't look like Terry at all, let's be real here. Rock looks more like Kyo in build than he does Terry. Rock is way slimmer and has a totally different fashion style. Rock doesn't have Terry's big guns, big chest and literal muscles popping out of his jeans. Rock neither has Terry's cap nor has the same jacket. To reflect this, we're gonna have to make a new model for Rock and we can't reuse Terry's one due to the major differences.
2. The difference in stance and animations: Everyone who has either played Garou or at least watched one or two clips of it knows the fact that Rock and Terry have a completely different stance animation (See: Spoilered Below). This change would've not been a big deal and would have just elevated Rock to Dark Samus-tier Echo, if not for the fact that we're already making an entirely new model for him as well.
3. The difference in moves: This one's the meat of the comparison. As I've said before, Rock and Terry only share one move which is Rising Tackle. I was a bit lenient by calling their Crack Shoot similar in my previous post, but in Garou Rock's Crack Counter is a counter so that's something you're gonna have to change as well. As about Rock's Reppuuken (which he took from Geese btw), the animation is wildly different from Terry's Power Wave and Rock can shoot 2 consecutive shots. Which already makes this special entirely different for as far as how projectiles go. You mentioned something about a Power Dunk-inspired move and I assume you're talking about one of Rock's Rage Run, if this were the only change from Rock to Terry it would've been fine, but as you can see from everything you've read already, this is simply not the case. And these are just addressing the changes for these certain moves. We still haven't addressed Burning Knuckle, Buster Wolf and Power Geyser as those are moves not performed by Rock and will have to need alternatives as well on top of the aforementioned Power Dunk, Crack Shoot and Power Wave.
And we're not even delving into the normals, I can't imagine for the life of me Rock doing Terry's aerials, safe for maybe his up-air which is already a move unique to Smash. I'm scared this is turning into one big essay so I'll just post some awesome gifs of Rock doing air moves that do the talking themselves.
And I'd also like to end this note on the fact that Garou, the game where Rock comes from, doesn't use GO (Terry's entire gimmick) for his supers lol.
I get that you love Rock and want to rep the boy in Smash somehow, but trying to deform him into an echo of Terry would basically be slander at this point and I hope you understand. I love the edgy boy as well, and Garou: MotW is one of my favourite games, it's definitely a game I'm very passionate about.
That being said, people can still vote for Rock if they want. I just hope I've at least convinced some people that he wouldn't fit as an echo. If you're making a new model, on top of creating several new moves and animations for that character, and only reusing one move. That's way past an echo and Rock is more than that.
It’s funny. With how poorly defined “echo fighter” is, combined with everyone’s subjective opinion on what characters could potentially work as one makes this a hotter debate than I expected. I still feel that we could have a character that takes most of his moves from Terry, while still having enough differences to feel like Rock Howard. It largely depends on how many changes we’re allowed to make and how willing we are to keep him similar to Terry. Personally, with our current definition of “echo fighter,” I really feel that it could work. But I definitely understand the concern. I react the same way when people suggest Sub-Zero as a Scorpion echo.
I certainly appreciate the essay and it’s nice to know that someone clearly shares my love for the edgy boy.
Here are the results of voting phases for Resident Evil’s Mii Costume, Assist Trophy, and Boss! I thought perhaps these would be more close than they were but we obviously have a clear winners based on the number of votes. Thank you for everyone for submitting content! Please also don’t forget to submit Resident Evil spirits using our official format.
With Resident Evil content behind us, we will now continue to the voting phase for our next Echo fighter. Please keep in mind that voting for an Echo fighter will be repercussions in the launch roster. When voting, try to think about the roster and company representation. The winner of this will represent their company as an Echo fighter. If it’s. Capcom echo, then Capcom representation won’t be in the first DLC season. Please keep in mind that the character will also appear along side Jill in a cinematic reveal trailer at the Game Awards Show.
Please vote for two Echo fighters you think would work as Echo fighters and can represent their company.
(I still cannot see a world where Coco Bandicoot shares a trailer with Jill Valentine and it makes sense. Come to think of it, why would they wait to reveal Coco with Jill, and not do it with Crash?)
1. Liquid Snake (I feel this is the safest choice as he’s from Konami which doesn’t exactly have many contenders in speculation except for Contra. He also represents the series that was the first third party franchise in Smash and debuted on a game for a Nintendo system. He also would work perfectly as a clone. He could also work perfectly well in a trailer with Jill and another Smash character killing all the zombies only for Liquid to step out of the spot light along with a zombified Snake lol.)
2. Rock Howard (I’m really interested in seeing how we could make this work. Obviously as Mr Robotto said, his specials would be to be reworked. Perhaps he could be in a new class that ranks higher than Ken? As for his trailer potential, he could arrive to help after Leon and Jill gets enveloped by zombies with Leon falling prey to them. Just as Jill seems to be overpowered, he rushes in to save the day. I’ve been holding out for Geese to be frank but Rock is fine in my book. An after tease could have a zombified Leon reanimated and try to catch a floating Smash invitation only for Rock to perform a spinning jump kick and KO him.)
I think Shadow works in the reveal trailer for the sole fact that his main appeal to non-Sonic fans is being over-the-top edgy, and while I'm not a huge fan of that depiction of his character, it could certainly work for a reveal trailer that is darker in tone. realize Sega has a LOT of great characters not yet in Smash, and plenty that I really want, but if you think about it-Sonic represents the company in the 90s, as a booming first-party dev. Joker and Bayonetta represent the company nowadays, as a third party dev. Shadow could represent the company in the early 2000s, as a struggling first-party dev. Shadow is also, quite possibly, the most highly requested echo fighter ever. And finally, it only feels right to reveal Shadow after we've already promoted Issac and Waluigi.
Chose Ms. Pac-Man for multiple reasons. 1-she's Namco's second most iconic character, bar none, and is a huge part of gaming as a whole. 2-she fits the reveal trailer perfectly, like how Luigi fit in the Castlevania trailer. Would bring much-need levity to said trailer. 3-Namco deserves a second rep, and I'm not exactly thumpin' my foot at Heihachi or whatever his name is. 4th, she's one of the most obvious and most requested echoes ever, probably second only to Shadow.
Reasoning on both is the same here. Both are iconic video game characters. Venus said that crowd interaction was going to be a massive part of the trailers so that in my mind eliminates characters the live crowd wouldn't know like Rock or Yu. There's a few others whos companies have a ton of good choices for playable characters too like Square and Capcom so in principle i want to keep them alive. Out of the options that leaves I think Shadow is an easy pick and then i basically flipped a coin between Big Boss and Liquid Snake
As a side note, if Liquid Snake gets voted in would we change the other Snake to Solid Snake?
......Konami has some great characters other than Contra. Just because they aren't talked about in the current speculation climate doesn't mean they don't exist
I don't know if it's good if we trade a unique and possibly new series from Bamco for just Pac-Man's wife, there's still a lot of series from the company other than Tekken that is a breath of fresh and it would probably betray people expectation since we only got 1 character from them. And yet we still have a long way to go before DLC.
The name of some columns was been represented as letters due table legibility: G=Changes accordling to Mii's gender; S=Change their skin tone to match that of the Mii; C=Change parts of the outfit to match Mii's favorite color, Change parts of the outfit as the player's color selection.
